Ridge Wallet's Sean Frank: AppLovin is a real ad platform — I spent $4M in Q4 and it matched Facebook ROAS

that I I think that's very hard and I think the people that have been successful on substack have built audiences elsewhere like Ben Thompson talks about trer would not exist if not for sharing on sharing links on on Twitter and Linkedin at the time and now he's got it cornered and people share it and his stuff goes viral even if he doesn't post it because people will say oh there was a great interview we got to talk we'll cover it exactly yeah I think the main thing is YouTube specifically as well as some of these other platforms can be very demoralizing but that doesn't necessarily you know the The X Factor now is that the algorithms need time to learn your content before they figure out the right people to distribute it to so um do we have Sean on the line we have Sea on the line in the waiting room let's bring him in we're gonna talk with Shawn about app Loven uh and Sean is one of the sharpest Minds that I know on e-commerce actually I'm going to go ahead say hey Sean there he is Mr Ridge himself Mr wallet you guys are in person I I was expecting you guys to be uh doing Zoom yourselves but damn IRL love to see it IRL always always always unless uh you're dealing with this traffic in La these days Sean it uh if you want to leave your house now in La it's about an hour to go anywhere uh are you still going into the office in Santa Monica every day no I went yesterday yeah it's like an hour and half bro PCH is still closed so yeah LA traffic Bud can't can't can't beat it well tell us about app Loven yeah so so app Loven uh for some backstory for the audience founded in 2012 really started to uh it wasn't even necessarily a company I feel like that was on the map for a lot of people uh until uh last year I think last year was the first time you guys started spending money on the platform is that correct or had you tested it uh at at early i points in ridge's history yeah so here's I think App 11 has three discussion points um we'll go from what I'm least qualified to speak on to what I'm most qualified to speak on so perect least qualified uh short reports are coming out that they are violating you know App Store terms of service uh their ads Target children all the type of stuff what app 11 is is there's two sides of the business they run a bunch of mobile ad space so games mostly games but but whatever old people are playing on their phones they have that sort of AD space and they have an ad engine right so like they're the ad exchange think of like a trade desk or Google Google Display Network um so they run both sides of those they've never done e-commerce their e-commerce push was like August or September 2024 so we're like six month of their and and the just question so the majority of their customers uh until they push into e-com Comm Merce were other mobile games I'm going to guess and other sort of digital apps services that they were pushing people to what was do do you have any idea of what their customer base looked like uh until last year yeah I think it was all mobile games so you know they they've been called like a pyramid scheme all these type of things so you're a a mobile ad engine where other mobile games can run on top of right I think they also do like display branding like trying to get you to go to the movies or just like real top of funel campaigns nothing conversion optimized right um now a lot of people spend a lot of time on mobile games so there are a lot of AD units available but it's something Ridge has never touched at all right like we're mostly a Facebook Advertiser they get some years 75% of my budget we do influencer that type of stuff we've never really done that much in the world to display and especially nothing in mobile display right there are the industry does have a bad reputation mobile display ads are just like that's where click fraud exists um well in my and from my understanding with Ridge you know having you know uh worked out of your guys's office uh and and worked on the ridge business myself back in the day um you you guys have a had a policy where you'll you'll test any Channel Once uh but you're very very ruthless with pulling back that spend if it's if it's not working uh so I I remember you know Connor uh being you know who's the CMO of Ridge being willing to test some obscure ad Network and being like yep doesn't work you know almost like the same day often times um so when you guys decided to test app L and then actually start to really spend on the platform I think that sent you know a real signal right well I'll say that we're a very sophisticated Advertiser right for people unfamiliar with Ridge wallet as a business I mean we'll spend over a hundred million dollars this year on digital advertising right so that's everything from LinkedIn ads to TV ads to influencer to Reddit to Snapchat like meta is the biggest best game in town they might get 70% of my budget some year sometimes they get 30% of my budget but like outside of them we're spending money on every single possible Channel we can so what are the accusations against applovin um I'm going to put the unverifiable claims that I cannot speak to in one box and that is there's short reports saying that like you know they're doing one-click Force downloads they're tracking users whatever cannot speak to that at all like if that's true you know let's hope there's an investigation that we don't want them targeting children with inappropriate content so I don't know anything about that the second thing is the stock price has gone parabolic in the past like two years or whatever I think the IPO maybe in 20121 I think it's up 4X in the past year at one point it was worth more than Uber so as soon as a company is trading at 100x revenue and is worth more than Uber and no one's ever heard about them people just get immediately free out right it's like you know they had the same you know Revenue multiple as paler right paler has been around a lot longer people know about paler so yeah just some for some extra context so they were worth 3.

8 billion at the at the end of 2022 uh at their Peak uh just a little bit ago they were worth 160 billion so okay generational run yeah yeah and anytime that happens I mean a lot of people start spec cating right revenue is growing really really fast um I can't I'm not a stock Trader I [ __ ] buy ads so is the is a company overvalued it's about as overvalued as palent here is so depending on where you land on that side of the co conversation that's that's why there's so much interest right now right the thing that I'm qualified to speak to is as an Advertiser they shoot us an email in August and they're like hey we're rolling out e-commerce we'll give you a lot of AD credit to test it right and we get ad credit from Snapchat to test stuff from Reddit to test stuff from meta to test stuff and free ad credit even if it's the shittiest ad space on Earth I mean okay yeah I'll get some I'll get some bunk ass Impressions whatever right um they end up uh you know it ends up working really well I probably spent $4 million of my own money on applo and ads in Q4 and I was spending 250 Grand a day it was it was matching Facebook ad spend right so one of the short reports is seem that like oh they're stealing Facebook's data to be able to Target these people so good once again I don't I don't know how the [ __ ] that would work but what I will tell you is that as a sophisticated Advertiser who tracks everything via northbeam via incrementality holdouts VIA post-p purchase surveys coupon codes people were playing Apple games seeing Ridge wallet ads buying those products and then telling us they saw it on the ads so it's a real ad Channel it really worked in Q4 I I have an invoice right now I owe them $1.

5 million that I have to pay by the end of the month so like it's a business I don't know what to tell everybody about the shorts now do I think the company's overvalued yeah I don't own any of the stock that's [ __ ] insane it's like it's a compy it's a mobile app platform what do you mean they're worth more than Uber like I [ __ ] call an Uber every day right I don't play any mobile games so that's like the stock price question then it's like oh all this nefarious whatever inside dealing subsidiaries I don't know anything about [ __ ] that what I'll tell everybody listening and what's so weird is I'm public I'm on Twitter like I post my ad spend on these channels no one's reached out to me like none of the shorts I'm like guys I'm around like I'll show you the [ __ ] app hey get on uh make him pay for it you know don't don't give that don't give up the sauce for free you know yeah you got to go on tus become an expert uh e expert consultant you can make a thousand an hour like I I have no dog in this race I'm like yeah dude whatever it was an ad Channel if they went away tomorrow I would spend money on Snapchat or Tik Tok or anywhere else right but like the verifiable proof is that I gave them real money it was a good ad Channel and I think the reason why people like their revenue is growing super [ __ ] fast right their revenue is up 80% year-over-year and they're like yeah we have a billion dollar run rate for e-commerce advertisers in December and I'm like yeah no [ __ ] I spent [ __ ] a million dollar it's like yeah I spent a ton of money with you guys like it doesn't take too many people like me spending that to get really really high Revenue um dude ads are the best business on Earth I don't know why this is so surprising for people now are they compliant do they owe Apple money are they stealing data for Facebook I don't [ __ ] know but pretty good ads you got any questions about that pretty good ads pretty good ads uh what's the can you talk about the relationship between applovin and flip are you has Ridge had any success on flip I remember flip blowing up out of nowhere they were giving a bunch of credits to basically give away products for retailers I know they have an ad partnership have you found any success on on the flip platform yeah so I've never used flip um as far as I know Ridge has never worked with or advertised on flip it would be a surprise to me to hear that my ads were on flip via app Lovin um I've had friends who've had very bad relationships with flip so I've always avoided it and our products don't work for live shopping anyway like Tik Tok shops doesn't really work for us either and it's because of like we have a very male focused demo we're more of a premium product you know those typically live shopping works for like you know leggings that make your butt bigger and that type of [ __ ] right like it's not it's not our core product that's crushing it on there that whole affiliate gmv world is very very dark and shap sh I know a lot of people who are doing weird stuff there you can check out the affiliate top charts like what goalie is doing they're giving people [ __ ] Mansions if they you know hit gmv targets of a million dollars so yeah I don't anything about flip I've never used flip they've emailed me all the time um yeah that I mean even an idiot like myself I'm like that looks like a pyramid scheme I'm not I'm not hang out there uh but dude you know I have the data on Apple right like 80 5% of our traffic from Apple 11 came from iOS devices right like one of the concerns is that like oh this is just bought traffic on Android devices like click farms in Bangladesh or whatever right it doesn't look like it's that so I don't know how they have good quality iOS traffic coming through it all seems to be games called like tomb blast or some [ __ ] but like Anyway old people it was pretty cool yeah the reason I wanted to have you on is is you know there are Major Brands out there that will run on an ad platform that's just sending them bot traffic and they won't even necessarily turn it off because to them they're just optimizing for you know Impressions and clicks and ridge has always been a company focused on you know the end actually you know conversion right and sort of building your guys's engine around that um what what happens uh you know Shifting the conversation a little bit what what's your outlook on e-commerce in uh our year 2025 we covered uh uh maybe a couple weeks ago we talked about how the whole Amazon you know it's it's a terrible time to be an Amazon Seller uh it's been a tough time to be a Shopify uh brand as well with all this sort of tariff action and things like that uh historically Ridge has made a bunch of products in China it's uh shaping up to be a rocky year for e-commerce Broadley it helps to have a fantastic brand like Ridge but what's your outlook uh going into the rest of the year oh dude just take a day by day I I mean uh there's more tariffs announced today there's more supply chain disruption um you know and it's not just the US government like every government on Earth is becoming more protection like section sorry to interrup but we had uh Ryan Peterson from flexport on yesterday that said that was talking about the the the actions that Mexico had taken around what what's not the same as the Dom Minimus loophole but I'm forgetting the the right name for it but uh to to protect uh Mexican uh uh textile workers so yeah lot of lot of action yeah and like we like to think about this one like very onedimensional like Americans importing things from China cheaply but like that [ __ ] over other their manufacturing economies like in Mexico they don't want [ __ ] cheap auto parts or cheap apparel coming from China sitting in their warehouses going to America dutyfree like it everybody gets pissed off in that so yeah that happened yesterday um the The quick summary is just take a day by day and try to survive don't have any debt if you can afford it um keep a lean team I think DC 3.

0 is like incredibly lean teams like ridges down to 60 us full-time employees we're doing more Revenue than ever with less people than ever and I think that's going to be more of the trend and yeah I mean if you can bring stuff to America you should I mean we're probably eight months away from 60% of the wallets being made here so I'll keep you guys updated when they start get made here where's where's your new Factory going to be or where you you you on shored some manufacturing that's been a a long-term process but uh you know what does that look like I mean yeah it's all component part manufacturing so like we have inner plates that are going to be made in Missouri and then they get shipped up to Philadelphia to be finished and then they get shipped to Arizona to be assembled and then they go to [ __ ] Kentucky to sit in the warehouse so this is one of the challenges uh you know China very strategically has everything within like a on hour radius when they do like you know these these industries uh but with tariffs today I mean it's 85% on aluminum Goods coming out of China so gets very close to the same price now so I think that's why he's doing it wow wow well thanks for stopping by appreciate the update love the take Sean you will be uh regular uh welcome to the show and uh thank you for for posting your heart out every single day yeah I'm I'm I'm the number three the best guess you guys had so far yeah we'll give you an we'll get you an nft just for you go bye thanks thanks Sean talk soon cool well Delian should be joining any minute I don't know if he's in the queue yet but uh uh quick backstory so Ridge sent uh or sorry ramp sent Ridge a plaque for spending $100 million on ramp uh so putting up some huge numbers and uh yeah Shawn is an absolute animal it's great well let's see is uh Delian in the queue not yet okay I'll text him and let's move on to uh Michael mcnano he says uh are people and people are still wondering why every single podcast is pivoting to video and it's a result here that says that a billion people are watching podcasts on YouTube every month yeah it makes sense I mean if you think about it Rogan really led the charge here I feel like he had such a massive audience on YouTube and so much of the attention that he would capture was YouTube oriented and you remember there was a period where Rogan's influence and um attention felt like it fell off a cliff after the initial Shopify deal and you could feel it almost ramp back up again as he went back on YouTube so massive platform uh you know one of the biggest reasons for this is obviously that podcasts have replaced a lot of Television consumption totally and what people don't always realize about YouTube is that a massive amount of YouTube viewership happens on TVs so this is people in their house instead of turning on CNBC they turn on tvpn I get crazy screenshots all the time people text me photos and they're watching it on the TV yeah and it blows my mind it was same thing with my YouTube videos I was like you watch this on TV that's like insane but I guess like yeah when you put a lot of production value into it it looks like TV yeah no and that was her thesis that was her thesis around uh if you actually want to compete with television around news you have to record every single day other you know high quality like this and it's also uh just so much more snackable because we can take that clip we can take some of those uh some of those great clips that we just had put those out on X put them out on shorts make vertical shorts out of it and if you just have pure audio you just can't distribute it that much it's really really hard sometimes there's transcripts that can go viral every once in a while but it's rare yep anyway Delan should be joining in one minute let's see if we have another post we can go through bullish on onep person teams card is at two 2 million ARR chat base is at 3 million ARR levels IO products are at 3 million ARR testimonial IO is at 1.

5 million ARR uh t. me oror me products at 1.

2 million ARR Ben Lang says he's bullish on oneperson teams uh pretty crazy what what was the decision between pmf or die to go two person team uh the whole thing was that pmf or die was like how do you apply these sort of extreme constraints 90 days 25k to it a million dollars V are sort of the simple concept but then outside of that you have to stay in the house but there's no real rules you can kind of do anything you want that's that's business right that business has sort of there's laws that govern business but there's no actual Like rules in the same way that when two teams go on an NBA you know Court they have to follow you know specific guidelines and so uh we wanted it to to as close as possible match sort of like free market competition the one thing with this Ben Lang post that's interesting is this to me proves that if if you are really ambitious and you want to have extreme scale and impact you actually have to build a team right because this this list would be more impressive if uh every single you know company on here had 20 to 100 million of ARR um I think we're ready Delian are you there can you hear us let's bring in I think he's close we're figuring it out let's see three two one hopefully he's