Sam Lessin: VCs are burning money on AI, Meta is best-positioned hyperscaler, and creators are the new seed founders

have you back on specifically when all the Tik Tok stuff is getting worked out for sure hopefully you win it but whether or not uh you know I know you'll have some great points we got Sam lesson here it's a party what's going on man what's up Sam how you doing I'm sorry over I was gabbing with these guys hey I was walking some tennis balls I was late but look we got microphones and white hats you're like you're my technology brother I mean teenage engineering that's the best a subtle way to say I paid too much for my microphone no you paid the exact right amount for Quality there you go there you go what's going on guys Alexis thank you so much thank you for having me all peace guy see you Alexis see uh much uh how you doing today how was tennis you know I'm just I'm only bummed because I really had this Vision in my head I was GNA come join you guys and we're at tuxedo I just didn't have time today you guys have that iconic photo on your website I think the slow so everybody listening just go to go to slow.

it's just it's just the partners the partnership wearing tuxedo yeah great Ben you should uh you should work on pulling this up but um but no you have a good excuse you were playing tennis uh if you had more if we had more time in the transition there you could have maybe we could have got Serena on for a second to give I'm heading to I'm heading heading to Indian wells in a few hours you guys are indan wells fans we we actually do nothing but but do this show and hang out with our fames basically fair enough I'm just trying to fit the role of stereotypical venture capitalist for you come from tennis go to tennis yep I like is the the honesty too many Venture capitalists like try to basically uh they're laring like they're not venture capitalist right you know they they put on like a I advise my friends like don't put up like a fake Zoom background and try to hide the fact that you're in this sort of like $30 million home you know like just just embrace it like Founders want to partner with people people that are very successful right uh so it's just authenticity and I mean we saw this with the SBF thing like people fake like oh I'm not rich and then you it blows up because he was like complete fraud and the whole like I don't know I I I'm I'm very I'm very short like faking that you're not like successful you're I Am pro honesty and pro authenticity that's what it's about it's not about like the flexing or like showing off it's just about like just being who you are no I agree there's hopefully You' you've got a full kind of 30 minutes here uh before you head to Indian Wells I feel like there's a ton of stuff to cover I want to give you an opportunity to uh talk about your uh billboard that you guys oh yeah we're very proud of our billboard this is our first slow outdoor marketing okay so you're cruising North the 101 you're going to see our billboard which you know is a burning pile of money around a castle and the and the tag line is AI is not your mode and it's just like we were just driving on the 101 and every [ __ ] billboard is like AI this AI that and we're like this is just like piles of money burning on the 101 so we decided to burn a little of our own money to kind of make the opposite point so it' be fun I like having a billboard I think we're g to do more Billboards I love it yeah yeah Billboards are extremely underpriced we're sponsored by a billboard company next time you buy Billboards go to ad.

com and tell them we sent you tell them sent you it Outdoor advertising is the future gentlemen none of this targeted stuff on the internet yeah it can go it can go much more viral it it's a lot of fun talk about uh yeah basically break break down some of the ideas behind the billboard you know we we've covered every single big AI fund raise this year we've covered the big companies that are trying to roll it out some are doing it better than others uh just today there was a new uh Deep Mind team that spun out and raised at at a $500 million valuation to do oh cheap cheap cheap these aren't typical slow deals but you you have a good perspective on the market like give us no look we've been pretty consistent on this for for two plus years I mean I wrote a deck in 2013 I'm sorry not 2013 2023 not that long ago um that was kind of about kind of the moment of venture capital what the [ __ ] venture capital and the basic point of it was don't confuse the fact that llms are powerful technology like there's stuff you going to do with them that are going to be great for all sorts of businesses with the disruption itself being a good business my partner will says this a lot the big guy on the website he's always like just because technology is disruptive doesn't mean that's where the money is made you have to think about the business model disruption and what's really going on and you know just I think we are in a super cycle of medic Venture Capital Money Lighting on fire in AI right now um because and there's a bunch of structural reasons for it we talked about then it's like LPS have too much money in too big of pockets they got to figure out where to jam it right um GPS there's no there's no narrative that makes sense but guess what if your LPS are going to pay you to jam money into AI companies you get paid the fees on it with a with a you know a Go Fish card it's not a bad deal right if you're willing to just spend a lot of money and so but we've just been incredibly short of this now it doesn't mean we don't love companies that are enabled by AI you know I I like what I call AI cherry on top businesses which is a business that fundamentally is great right it's fundamentally but then there's a nonobvious ideally cherry on top right um which is that AI gives it a new leverage you know I'm working on a new company with um with Joe Lonsdale and their team which is called Merit first and that's an example of company where like actually structurally and sociologically AI does add something new is a type of company that should have always existed it was hard to build before now you can build that stuff is all great but this like large model fight to zero I mean it's just it's kind of wild to watch to be totally honest uh talk about Facebook's uh just meta's opportunity broadly in AI if you were still working at the company how would you you know do you think they uh our position overall is like they're doing a lot of things right there's been talk recently about you know having a a standalone you know app which could make sense but it doesn't even feel like they've been that aggressive with sort of productizing it productizing it um well yeah my my view I met an AI is quite simple it's a classic which I love uh heads you win taals you win situation right um it's the best way to the reason the stock has gone up so much I think of anything is you look as an investor you're looking around you're saying where do I definitely win on AI regardless of how the breaks go and the answer is going to be meta right they unlike Google aren't going to get disrupted in their Core Business on this they don't have a search business they don't have a lookup business to disrupt they have a [ __ ] ton of Engagement attention and they sell ads and you know what definitely gets better with llms ads the targeting gets better the creative gets better you just win right and so at that point you know the reality is is like I think they're incredibly well positioned you know people are argue that these numbers are huge they're spending on LL whatever but you got to look at as a percentage of market cap it is a tiny percentage investment right to cover cover their ass right and to make sure that whatever Innovation happens in AI enough of its open source and the funnel is wide enough that it all ends up backing them they don't get cornered and stuck out in the wilderness right but it's an incredi I think they're an incredibly good place I think they're probably in the best place of any large tech company and I'd say moreover like you know the way I've always thought about this and what I see is AI unlike prior Innovations like unlike the transition from shrink rack soft Ware to the Internet is just so good for the big companies right it's easy to slot in it commodifies I mean there's like you can't you cannot think of a better extending Innovation for a large company right that already has the infrastructure and the data center teams and the whole nine yards it's like this is just all upside for them and so I think what you see and low margin basically well unless unless you're apple and somehow you got stuck way out in the wilderness but like they're in you know the Googles the the Amazon the Facebooks I mean metas they're in great shape and then if you're a tiny company there's just so much leverage all of a sudden that you know there is a lot of cost cutting there's all sorts of things you can do that's cool you just don't want to be in the middle as with most things in life you never want to be in the middle and you know candidly even companies like open AI or should we say nonprofits like open AI the problem is they're kind of in the middle you know they can't compete with the hyperscalers from just access to Capital perspective if this is a capital game they're going to lose right so do you think and if they're and if it's not a capital game and it's a deep seek open source they're also going to lose like the key in life is just never be in the middle do you think that uh soft Bank can realistically spend $3 billion on agents with opening eye this year should look all I can tell you this is I I joke it's a joke but it's true one thing we've learned we've been doing slow for 10 years whenever soft Bank buys you sell right like they are the worst investors in the history of the world right and so it's just like I've watched them Crush so many companies by over capitalizing them by get they're like you know they it's hilarious I love their decks but no it's like it's complete House of Cards House of Cards was it always that way I M is nuts right every once in a while in his history he's been nuts Enough To Nuts his way into some amazing opportunity that saved his ass right but like you know I mean you can he was the original LOL deck guy remember his unicorn Deck with the unicorns and that he like he's an incredible marketer so why haven't why haven't we seen Masa taking bigger swings you know in the early stage it seems like moss always comes in late and overpays that's his thing yeah right like a massive infrastructure just put a million dollars into every new company just write tons of seed checks like like is it is it just an infrastructure problem like why they just don't index the entire Seed Market exactly yeah I mean it's an interesting question I I wonder so historically speaking when big funds try to index the seed Market there are two problems one is someone wakes up does the math and like this doesn't make any sense right like even if you have the million dooll check at seed if you're trying to deploy billions of dollars like it's just an irrational business model because the the multiples don't make up for the fact you have to move gross dollars right so the best case you're doing at seed then is just marketing right you're like I do seed to Market yeah hey Jess I'm on the technology Brothers podcast you want to say hi yeah come you know my wife Jessica of course came over theol house hey how you be able to do the show without your team uh your team's coverage we we basically feature your articles you know daily so than I'm grateful congrats on all the success you guys talk town we you want him for no we subscribe to the information I I have to think we're one of the number we have I hope we're one of the number one referral partners because we we get the paid wall articles and then and then we cover them but we don't cover the full thing you know so we basically are you know pushing people behind the pay wall so it's great we you got to strike a deal so I'll leave you guys but then you doig referral Revenue your way well no no we're just we're happy to support happy to support um great great to meet oh look at that it's a guest on the guest I Love It of droing well I'm just delivering your mail thanks have fun bye fantastic nice uh okay talk I I want I want more hot takes from you on on kind of all the on all the hyperscalers so so what's going on with with apple are they just a luxury goods are they the the lvmh of tech are they just going to kind of continue to to make the same products forever uh are they done innovating look here's the reality it's really [ __ ] hard to make phones right and like really hard especially in the modern era it's really hard to imagine that they're going away anytime soon because of that at the same time you know I don't know if you guys get the um the Apple intelligence summaries of your text but they're like comically badar they literally will tell you the opposite of what the text says right like it is useless right and so I think it's I think it's valuable in that it's so funny because I'll screenshot them and send them into the group chat and be like really you guys were talking about this or something and that's funny but it's all it's purely accidental humor it's insane right and so I'd actually think that that I would argue that Apple's intelligence um text message product might be the perfect exhibit for an Anti-Trust case right where you're like you talk about consumer harm right as like the kind of bar for this this is what we're going to get out of a right like it's right it is really funny as I love LS so I'm into it I think it's funny J phone I swear to God Jessica's phone on their newest iOS update it deleted all somehow like all the contacts and so she now just has phone number like it is comically bad but the problem is on the flip side is like the camera is good and it's hard to make phones right so like I don't um I'm still like and who who no one likes green bubbles right and so the reality is is like I think we're a long way away from Apple going away but my God are they in a weird place right now right it is unun my point like I just want better Ai and I know that they'll just be able to wait and just dominate the Monopoly and then eventually roll something out yeah like the very basic thesis is is if lvmh is a luxury goods conglomerate and they're worth hundreds of billions of dollars should the sort of digital Tech equival consumer Tech equivalent of that be worth trillions of dollars like yes like they're not well maybe but look lvmh there was an interesting moment you guys remember I think this is like a few years ago where there was this moment where lvmh well I guess the CEO of was the richest guy in the world right and somehow like it inverted and like Tech was worth L it was like a crazy inversion you're like wow so the meta story of our society right now is that it's not the innovators that are worth the most The Meta story is that it's like fake luxury signaling that's the most valuable thing in the world and that was not a good thing that was not a good you contributed to that with uh with with with Facebook right right like Facebook was a huge Catalyst for you know uh Tech becoming the number one source of wealth or no no no luxury spending right because now it wasn't like oh your your watch or your car is no longer just like you know being seen by your local community but it can be seen by the whole world and you can sort of signal out uh you status yeah it's an interesting it's an interesting social Dynamic right because on one hand I'd argue that Instagram has made it so that the real luxury consumption is experience and travel and being hot right like all of a sudden like Fitness is cool because like you can say you're hot and being hot's like way more expensive than a watch right and so like actually that's the way like being well rested is the luxury good right um and like so you know kids kids are like the most expensive thing in the world so all these things that you can like now socially signal as like I'm [ __ ] Rich easily and like those C certainly supersede your Burkin bag like those that's like cheap luxury right um that's like Mass luxury at best and so like there's this weird Dynamics going on now you all on the flip side the reality is is like look I've got I don't know guys you guys play with the The Meta Ray bands yeah yeah we are freaking great right and like I do think that you talk about luxury and fashion like if meta had released not Ray bands yeah right then like they wouldn't be as cool even if they were exactly the same and they probably wouldn't have sold as well so like I'm not like a luxury guy like I don't have perfect insights or tastes on this but there is there's weird stuff going on about how you what what luxury really is how you display taste how you display wealth and certainly things like Instagram had had a big impact on that totally related to The Meta Ray bands are you at all like a da ma of any other augmented reality or just like consumer hard Hardware technology like apple Vision Pro Oculus any of these products at all I Apple Vision Pro has got to be the most expensive product per minute of use in the history of the world I I obviously bought one immediately I've used it precisely zero times since the first week I had it it's an incredible demo right you think about I've actually tried to do the math on this like it's more expensive than private planes per minute of use right if you looked at like the overall like so the exact same experience I I was a big Oculus I I think that Oculus is actually pretty good at this point I you know look I'm a Facebook loyalist so I like bought every version I I like everyone else played a bunch of zombie shooting games during the pandemic with friends it was super fun like I'm into it I think it's a really hard sell though when like your life is pretty good right like I think the reality is like VR and like immersive experiences and all other realities are kind of great if your life sucks right because I me like I'm going to like live in a video game but like I think a lot of the problem with that that type of stuff is like it's just it's not if you have a good life and kids and like do stuff like what's the point right go play real tennis instead of VR tennis yeah like I like Wii tennis but I like real tennis better yeah yeah it's great that makes sense uh one more uh do you have a prediction around uh Google do we have a new C there at all in the next five years are they all in on Sundar SAR um I don't is there like is that just like based in some news or rumor or that purely based on it's it's purely based on uh Google has not managed to release an an AI product that hasn't been riddled with issues and it feels like uh it it it does you know we we you know you obviously uh can poke fun at masa's picking ability and call him somebody that sort of sign the top or whatever but you know open Ai and chat gbt have hundreds of millions of users and you know maybe they're not replacing that sort of commercial search activity but like much of the informational search it feels like uh the Golden Goose is threatened for the first time it's a really good question I mean here's the way I would think about it is Gemini is actually a pretty sweet product the problem is no one uses it right like you know so is like the notebook LM product like Google actually has a bunch of very very good products right I think their problem is there's so big and their the marketing and like driving of those products is extremely hard um for them and yes I think they are the company that more than any other company in the world is in the position of both being way ahead in certain elements of AI and like has a huge Advantage but they also have the most to lose right and so I think that's a very challenging thing for any company if you look at you know the history of companies like that the best example from history is is was it Kodak right that invented the digital camera right like they invented it and like they [ __ ] it up right and like and you understand why though right which you have a bunch of these business concerns now the interesting about about Google is I think syndra is a very good guy and competent manager managing an enormous infrastructure but you do actually still have founders with meaningful control in the picture and I actually think that's good because I think to do really tough things it's extremely helpful to have the broad sort of Founders right the question is it just has to be wielded and so I think the bigger question is you look at this like I think was it Larry Pig's letter about please try to go to work 60 hours a week for AGI did you see this Larry wants a new startup today or yesterday it was like a wildly funny thing to leak right because everything's going to leak but it's like I actually think it's less a synar question and more like do the founders step up and just like broadsword this right because that is if you that is kind of I think what probably has to happen and it's not a technology problem like honestly I I think Gemini is actually probably yeah for a lot of things the best product it just is like terribly marketed yeah makes a lot sense that makes sense uh you know you guys uh you know you've spoken out against you know Venture becoming the sort of asset management business starting to look more like you know private equity in some ways at the same time uh you know that's on the fund side on the company side we've seen uh the sort of venture style rollups where people raise Venture Capital dollars to buy you know companies they're going to and it's a great deal for the founder right to raise 20 on 100 and then just buy like profitable companies in theory uh it's better economics than than traditional PE but you guys at slow have supported I'm blanking on the name of the portfolio company but but what's what's your portfolio we've done a bunch Metropolis team shares whatever I mean like so the here's here's basically talk track I give you one is I'm not act I am personally a snob about Venture capitalists being asset managers because I don't think it's that creative or important or interesting I will say as a GP it's a great [ __ ] business model right and so like the the seed business model we run is definitely less consistently and meaningfully profitable than like being a16z in a platform there's no question right like so if you just want to make money as a and saying I earn DPI to justify more AUM is a very smart thing to do right it's just not that fun right and so like I'd rather do the fun part of the business which is saying I take money in but I take in the money I know how to make lots of money on and then I run around saying haha I Told You So I was right from C that's like more fun for me right and so I think you have to like separate those as like I do intellectually dislike it I don't think it's a bad business model on the rollup thing look we started doing this before all the cool kids were doing this right so if you look at like the two probably most important deals we've done in this one is team shares we seated that from zero I bought four I bought 10% of the company originally for $400,000 right we' kind of bought up from there they've acquired well over 100 small businesses they built a whole platform for scaling them it's a Killer Business um it's kind of a and they've done a lot of really smart stuff but there is kind of a technology leverage rollup strategy to it you know you can look at something like uh Metropolis which is another pretty iconic deal which again we were the seed investors in we were early seed investors in when it was a tech company and we realized that it turns out that SAS is a terrible business model right in a lot of verticals it's it's it's SAS is just like everyone has this idea that SAS is a great business model it's not right um it's you get paid later it's hard to sell and you know the thing if you think about something like it's a transformative technology you go to a CEO and say I have a transformative technology going to change your whole business it's going to make you 50% profit you can't then say give me 40% of the profit right they're like [ __ ] you we'll give you your SAS fee right so if you have an actually transformative technology and you can swing it you're better off buying your customers right and then deploying your technology but that pred that's predicated on actually having a better technology right and so this is the thing I think people get wrong is you know when Venture capitals go fund rollups with the yada yada yada there's some tech leverage in them or no Tech leverage that's ridiculous and it doesn't make any sense if you're if you're a smart uh venture capitalist smart found you say hey I'm going to prove that I can be way better at this than my competitors than anyone else in the industry and then by the way it turns out forever reason this is a hard software to sell it's conflicted I can't get paid what it's worth the whole nine yards then going to PE folks and saying hey we're going to prove this out we want cheap Capital we're going to go buy all our customers I think is a great strategy right so the kind of the devils in the details in terms of how you do this um and we we're we're into it I mean we did there's one called tml the lumber manufactury we're really excited about we definitely do this but we have a pretty specific bar on what this is and it's not just like buying pool cleaning rollups yeah can you talk about creators I want to hear we love creators I mean this I want to hear I want to hear who you're bullish on and then what the anatomy of a deal that looks like a a banger with a Creator looks like yeah so here's the basic upshot as you guys maybe know like we just announced this $65 million vehicle which is pretty groundbreaking right what we invest in is not sea corpse we invest in seed creators so think I own a niche right I'm doing a million in Top Line I've got a million followers I'm growing really quickly and here's the key fact as you do the breakdown you're like I'm an awesome Creator I've built this community I I I am the the leader of it I'm admired I have the scarce thing I have low you know low uh CAC on high LTV folks it's [ __ ] sweet but you're doing a million in Topline after expenses taxes you're living fine but you don't have investable Capital we're like we'll give you the investable capital to build C Corps and businesses right this is a new pattern of C Corp generation and building we really believe in at seed now how do we get there we got there because it's really hard to invest in seed Creator businesses because the equity and the value of the community is held outside the company and so Jane wakes up in five days and we love the community we love her she's like oh [ __ ] it's actually not this it's that it's not Mr Beast Berger it's [ __ ] febles you do not want to be in that scenario right right like no one wants that it's bad for everyone um we want to be able to invest as in as aligned way as we possibly can with creators and so we were like look we do this effectively with Founders anyway we don't take board seats we want to be first checkin we're trying to be collaborative holistically with them we want to be aligned with them if they win great if they lose say Lai what is the equivalent in Creator and like that's kind of what we're bullish on so I think you know it turns out in Creator like most things the transparent deals the super Buzzy ones Masa style they always get super over every knows them and they say oh we like Creator Creator important Creator right we're much more interested in providing Capital where it's scarce which is we think seed creators and we think on this model what about putting those two things together have you thought about going to a Creator and saying hey you would be perfect if you owned this business that already exists we buy the business give it to you repackage it and then you're kind of the marketing front end is that a crazy idea or have you it's not a crazy idea and we get pitch it all the time actually you know in different verticals like you have the of lawn care who wants to buy the lawn care companies or it's not crazy um but I do think it's complicated to get right right and I think like you know there's a thing I like to say about seed stage investing which is no [ __ ] bank shots right and the more variables that have to be right Domino style the less likely it is that the thing actually happens right and so for me it's like GH like so you want Tech leverage and a rollup and we're going to put a Creator on top and it's like something will not work right and like that makes it a hard bet now but it's intellectual not wrong right um with uh kind of two follow-up questions on the Creator fund do you guys have like a no zeros policy right A lot of these creators generate revenue from ads right so if you invest a million dollars and they generate you know a couple million bucks a year in ad Revenue like even if they don't make a banger company like you'll get your money out eventually or or how do you think about so here's the way we think about it it's a great question we're not that interested in your ad business right like we just don't really care like there's no Enterprise Value generated in that um it's really nice non-dilutive financing sometimes but like it's not what we're playing for um we also are not interested in taking some Creator's last scent right like if you're just like you're making a million bucks after you pay taxes and whatever else you're living okay we're not going to be like hey uh by the way we want our 10% of your ad Revenue we like we don't care now there is a scenario we do care about protecting right which is if you take our money you know we're doing the seed thing we start a few companies they don't quite work but in the process of spending our money cuz you marketed yourself and whatever else you get 10 times bigger yeah and then you're like you know I kind of just like Super Bowl ads I'm just going to do a bunch of Super Bowl ads and I'm going to make 15 million $20 million next year on that we'll we'll want our piece of The Upside on that in that model right but like our whole thing is about alignment and we're certainly not primarily interested in your ad dollars right it's not like a slow you know now of financing right n makes sense uh Mr Beast is marked around five billion right now private Mark I wouldn't read that much yeah yeah yeah but I'm I'm assuming that everybody that's investing hundreds of millions of dollars into Mr Beast or billions wants to get their money out eventually it's hard to imagine anybody buying it you know uh out right right uh do they uh do you see Mr Beast going public in the next few years I am sure that's what he they want to do like OB it is is it is it a stock that trades you know kind of like true social where it's just based around attention and and doesn't I think it's a m it's a mem stock if it gets out right it's just a meme coin on steroids you know the reality is is like it's not again I actually credit Jimmy Mr Beast he's done a few very important things for the Creator space right one thing he did is he's made a lot of creators dream a lot bigger and that's great right like I appreciate that right from a perspective I also think you know he's really I think been a good example on a beacon of creators aren't just creators like they can start businesses like whatever so there there there's been an aperture opening that he's really helped with that I think has been great for the industry now that said um you know I do think there's some structural problems with his quote unquote business right as a Creator business like I'll give you an example like one we we care a lot about um the LTV of customers right and his audience is so Broad and candidly pretty poor right which means that like they're not great customers right like there's a reason you sell chocolate because it's one of the only things you can sell to everyone that's cheap right and like so there's like it's not like the best audience it's also you know the reality is he does a lot of this Media stuff like you know that you know everyone's excited that he gets a $100 million Amazon contract but then he spends more than that on the show right like and so it's like it's just not clear to me that in the hyper competitive entertainment space with a broad General audience that that's like an amazing business but look it is definitely a cult and I'm sure there's a bunch of like 20-year-old kids that will grow up and trade at like a meme stock right and like that could be fine right it's just not like a thing where you're looking at like this is a money printing machine right which is what I'm more interested in to my uh to my knowledge you're thinking about the slow Creator program where you would want one of the creators underlying companies to go public but not the Creator holding company to go public and that there's some brand risk to the Creator if you're having a a financial asset that's trading based on your popularity and if your popularity goes down you get even more unpopular because yeah so we I've been interested in this kind of how do you think about financing people with Equity versus debt for a very long time I started my first company in 1999 when I was in high school it's called life capital.

com and the idea was basically some version of this right and so like I think that thematically makes a ton of sense right as the world gets more unequal and outcomes are more discontinuous debt financing does just broadly not make sense for people right the equity model and we've invested in a bunch of versions of this right including some of that recently so I do think it's a very interesting spit specifically for the creater fund again you know you kind of are you know you are what you eat right in this case we like eat LP dollars and like from an eating LP dollar perspective and like what the structure is the good news is we really think there's an opportunity to deliver normal ass SE Corps skims whatever you want to call it right that start with creators but are perfectly huge amazing companies to back from seed right and so that is what we do with that is there residual value to the hold Co pieces yeah there totally is like in 10 years cuz these are 10e funds do you have to figure out how to wrap that up or resell it or like retrade absolutely but like candidly this Market is moving so fast that the way I think about this is like we're investing in launchpads for amazing SE Corps that are driven first and foremost by amazing communities that are led by amazing Founders that are creators like that is what we're doing and yes at the end of a 10-e cycle which then has a bunch of extensions on it you do figure out what you do with the residual assets yeah that makes sense um I have so many other questions here I mean the the main one is uh how quickly are you pushing creators to uh are are you thinking of these creators as a catalyst for the SE corpse that they're spinning out because one thing I've seen from spending millions of dollars with influencers is like oftentimes you'll spend $100,000 with an influencer it it performs well like if it's a sort of like broad consumer audience and then the performance can drop off over time because uh you know you know there's only so many buyers in the audience um how do you think about uh you know the almost no Creator is big enough to sustain a venture scale uh you know C Corp by themselves right well it depends what verticals and how you're looking at it again like when you think about creators it's such a broad space and used so broadly that I think you can you can mean a lot of different things right and so look one of the Dirty Secrets which you know it sounds like is in the Venture Capital World entrepreneurs all day long will pitch you about how their CAC is very high but the CAC will come down here's a secret CAC always goes up right it always goes up like there CAC goes up not down right and so like what you're experiencing is that it's like if you spend money with an influencer they're the people who want to buy the thing anyway you reach them it's cheap and then they hit a wall like if it's just like a general product you're selling right and so you have to think about it as a Launchpad from that perspective um you know we want to back found Creator Founders who come in and are they want to be entrepreneurs they like pitch us business ideas like they have their list they're like okay like I know my audience in lawn care in terrariums and you name it better than anyone in the world here's the 10 things that no one knows and by the way I can sell them and I know I'm selling it to myself like I'm the leader of this and I understand the space better than anyone and I have access to the community and they trust me that's what we want right um we don't need them to come in and be like here's the business plan 100% in fact we kind of just but we do need that list because if you come in and you're like I'm a Creator I have the audience but I don't know what to do we're like well we don't are you an entrepreneur just going to make more media right and we're like the media is fine but the media has to support real businesses yeah that makes sense cool um anything else that's all I got for today uh last question who's a better Grill Master you or Zuck oh definitely Zuck okay I had to now fantastic I mean look I wouldn't say bad but like I think that man has invested in the craft of grilling in a way that I have not I love it I love it that makes sense uh we'd love to have you as a regular yeah anytime you guys reach out it's I really love the show it's super fun I love what you guys have done and we love bullshitting so it's great you love to Yap we love to Yap match made in heaven it's a match made in heaven collab on a billboard someday it'll be fun we should yeah we should that'd be great uh well enjoy Wells enjoy the weekend have a great time we talk to you later have bye it was great uh I noticed on his uh website slow.

uh it looks like they have the biggest guy and they made him they made him chair I've had to do that before oh wait how tall am I Jordy 68 68 A lot of people just don't even believe it they say there's there's never been a podcast 68 podcaster yeah uh yeah I'm kind of