David Senra on Jensen Huang, founder obsession, and why he won't do a Masayoshi Son episode

ask him about Nvidia. Gonna ask him about Jensen Wong. Gonna ask him about great founders. I'm gonna ask him how he's doing today. How are you doing? What's going on, brothers? Looking fantastic. Amazing. Look at this. Look at this.

Professorial, if I might say, honestly, 99% of the time that I see Senra, he's got the black founders tea on. Yeah. It's good to see you in a It's good to see you in a jacket. That's great. I know. People say I shouldn't wear my own merch, and I completely disagree. Yeah. Yeah. It's the greatest merch in the world.

It is. It is honestly like one of the most comfortable t-shirts to work to work out in. Um if think about how important that random me and Jordy ran into each other after not talking for like 6 months at a gym in Malibu. And I don't know if you would have recognized me if I didn't have the without the founder shirt on.

So, well, now that you're doing video, you know, you're a lot more recognizable. You're going to get stopped on the street all the time. I'm sure it's not the dream that you've been waiting for. No, let's hope not. Please don't. Yeah. He only wants to get recognized in the Aman.

That's that's the most common place that it happens. I'm sure. Anyway, our friend Justin Mays uh told me he's opening the new factory for Kettle and Fire and he text me last night and he text me where it is. I was like, "Is there a man in that city? " It's like It's like Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Yeah.

Uh, I'm on Lancaster. A Man Caster. Yeah. One of the most historic locations. The Caster. The Caster. That's great. Uh, well, what was the last what was the last episode you dropped? Oh my god. Um, it's the the episode's actually going kind of crazy. Uh, most people like it. Some people are very upset.

Uh, it's Todd Graves, the the founder of Raising Canes. Okay. So, Raising Canes, this guy's been running his business for 30 years. He owns over 90% of it.

uh it's worth at least 10 billion dollars and he truly believes that God put him on earth to be great at chicken fingers, making chicken fingers so he can help other people's and people so a lot of people love his approach.

He's essentially what I what I would describe is I did this episode on the founder of In-N-Out a long time ago, Harry Snyder. It's essentially like Harry Snider's reincarnated, but instead of making hamburgers, he's making chicken fingers.

They have like the very same philosophy, but people are like really upset that he feels this is his mission, but he like does a ton of good for the community, like gives to charity. Like, let the guy make his [ __ ] chicken fingers. That's funny. Yeah.

Didn't So, he he basically just was building the company while he was still in college, right? I I No.

So there there's a funny there's an interesting um thing that reoccurs at the history of entrepreneurship is like these these founders write a business plan in business school about their idea and they get terrible grades. So like Fred Smith, the founder of FedEx, C minus. Yeah.

Uh Todd Graves, lowest grade in the class. Uh Phil Knight for Nike, same thing. Bad grade. Uh completely disinterested. The professors don't know. The professors don't know.

I I remember in college I wrote a bullc case on Twitter at like 1 billion and they got like a B minus and they're like just because he like disagreed me with me on the valuation and it's like I was completely right. Yeah, I was completely correct. 100%.

But the crazy thing about Todd Graves is like no one would give him money. So, uh he never raised again. Um and so he raised from uh he actually to to save money or to make money he worked as a boiler maker.

And so they do these [ __ ] crazy things where you have to work like five or six weeks cuz you're fixing a refinery and every day the refinery's down. It's like very detrimental to the health of the company.

So they pay you a ton of money where you just have to work like a dog for like 100 hour weeks, six weeks straight. So he meets a bunch of boil makers. Then he risks his life doing commercial fishing. Do you remember this show like Deadliest Catch? Deadliest Catch. Yeah. That's what he did.

He did that when he was like 23. And then he goes and uh he borrows money from his bookie and then a boiler maker named Wild Bill.

So he never talks about this anymore, but I know I just I I love the idea like there's some boiler there's some boiler maker named Wild Belt there that has like a couple hundred million with a racing gain stock or his book.

He made like a hundred or $200 million just cuz this 23y old kid wouldn't shut up about wanting to live a chicken finger dream. That's what he repeats over and over again. Chicken finger dream. Chicken finger dream. And those guys have the 10% of raising canes.

No, he never says the percentages who has the rest of the he says over 90%. But, you know, he said he rolled him into the um he rolled him into the main company because they just they just invested in the first uh Raising Canes. Another thing that's interesting, he had a co-founder who quit after the second store. Oo.

Miss, no conviction. There's always a story like that with like all these power lock companies. No, it's interesting. It's It's funny. restaurants and CPG are so tangible that it attracts people that that have uh dreams but not necessarily extreme conviction. They can see the idea in their head.

And um there's a there's a sandwich shop in LA and I and I've sat down. I'm blanking on the name right now, but they've got probably 20 30 locations around the West Coast now. And he was just telling me how the first year he had been a successful restaurant tour. He had multiple locations.

He had done nightclubs and all this stuff. And then the first year of his business, he went into massive debt. He was working 14 hours a day. He he went into this business like knowing food and beverage really really well.

And it was just the most devastating like couple years where it didn't matter that they were making a good product and people liked it. He was getting, you know, he was having high schoolers sort of like talk smack to him, you know, saying like, "Make my sandwich faster. " You know, like getting angry at him.

So it just like we you know it weeds out the people that don't have that like ridiculous, you know, didn't have maybe the co-founder didn't have the chicken finger dreams. Listen, I would I think the episode's like an hour long. So if you listen to it on 1. 5x speed, you can get it in 40 minutes. It's exactly that.

He almost lost so he was like heavily geographically concentrated in Louisiana. And he almost lost everything in in during Hurricane Katrina because it knocked out 21 of his 28 restaurants. And it was all personal debt. So no one would lend him money. So he'd have to go find like an angel investor.

He had a very interesting way to uh to finance each individual store. He's like, "Hey, invest like 200 grand in this. " He would take that uh he called it an angel investment, but it's really an angel investment. He's like, "Give me 200 grand. I will fill out a one-page contract.

I will guarantee you personally that I will pay you back your money and 15 with 15% interest. " He would take that contract to the bank. The bank would loan him like a million dollars to give him the startup money. And he did that all the way up until the first 20 restaurants. And he was like, "We're rolling.

We have so much cash flow. Nothing's going to go wrong as long as I don't lose out on any day sales. " And then Hurricane Katrina comes and knocks out, you know, 21 out of 28 restaurants. And so he talks about we he says this over and over again.

He's just like, "Don't do the things I did because they were wildly reckless. They just happened to work out for me. " Which I thought was also really funny. Now he's still alive. Uh are you planning on doing one of those episodes where you go sit down with him, have dinner, eat some chicken fingers, break it down?

So, I said on the episode, if anybody knows him, Yeah. Uh, please, I would like to meet him because I'm obsessed, you know, like you guys know this because we talk all the time. Like, I'm obsessed with people that do one thing.

The only thing I'm really interested in is like I'm not interested in your stupid [ __ ] startup or your latest company. I'm interested in your last company. Like, the thing that you are going to do until that you thought you were put here on the earth to do and the thing that you're going to do until you die.

And so, yeah, I'm fascinated by talking to people like that. Most of the most interesting like unknown founders that I've met recently, uh, the most impressive ones are all in like their 70s and they've been building their company for, you know, 40 or 50 years. You just talk to them.

It's like the the level of detail they know about the world they've built is like un it's one of the most unique experiences you could have in your life because that that compounded knowledge. There's things that they know that they can't even really explain why they believe what they believe.

Uh, but it's just like a very like deep intuition, sense of intuition. Jensen is the same I I would imagine the same way. Yeah. now I think he's the longest running Texio if I'm not mistaken.

My question is, do you think that these founders who wind up running their companies for 40 years know it's their life's work in the first month, in the first decade even? No. Do they fall into it? And because I feel like a lot of it's just luck. Like no one ever made them an offer they couldn't refuse.

They never wound up fig like being in a situation where they had to, you know, pay some bill and they wanted to cash out or something. So I I don't think um they know it that early. Now that is separate from like so like Todd Graves, right? It was like he's been offered billions of dollars. Yeah.

And he's like I never thought of it for a second. What I also love about him is he he talks about the need we need more founders and we need more entrepreneurs to not sell their company. Yep. And so he's like I'm competing.

The reason he's like running through the QSR industry right now is cuz he's like he's competing against these very old corporate run businesses. There's no founders competing against him. And he like he's just like we need more diversity of thought. We need more ideas. You need more innovation.

You need people to actually care. And so people somebody asked him like you've been offered billions of dollars. What was the the offer that was the most tempting? He's like none of them. Not nothing was ever tempting. He's like this is going to be a multigenerational business. I'm going to give it to my kids.

So let me let me give you another hilarious story about this. And I'm going to paraphrase this, but uh so James Dyson, who still owns 100% of Dyson, which I've done four episodes on, right?

My my number one autobiography recommendation out of you know the almost 400 biographies of entrepreneurs I've read so far is James Le's first autobiography which is called Against the Odds like a few weeks ago. So he still owns 100% of the company. The numbers you see thrown out there they say it's worth 10 billion.

It's worth 20. I've heard he's pulling out five billion more than five billion year dividends personally from what I hear. Okay. So I was at this like super fancy invite only. What does he do with it? Where's he investing? Does he have a family office or something like So that's how Yeah.

So there there'll be hints because like you if you're he's been pulling out a ton of money. Turns out he owns 5% of Apple now cuz he's been building position for a decade. Like no way better than that. Way better than that. He he's like owns more Federal Reserve. He owns most the most sheep in anybody in the world.

I love it. Yeah. You got to be sheep maxing. You just like you have to be maxing. You run out of things to invest in. So he like he's the largest green pea producer in Europe. Like amazing. So this funny story about this there. So, I'm at this like super fancy uh invite only investor conference.

There's like 15 people there and all of them like controlling massive amounts of capital and one guy was telling a story like he the more assets under management the like they're trying to buy private businesses and you know you start out buying you know $500 million businesses then a billion dollar businesses.

Now he's like he's got to shoot really really [ __ ] high. Yeah. And so I'm going to paraphrase this. This is why I love people like James Dyson, like Bloomberg, uh Michael Bloomberg, like Todd Graves, uh Steve Jobs is obviously similar though, even though it's a public company.

They go to they approach Dyson to see would you be interested in selling? And the response, I'm paraphrasing, was [ __ ] you. This is barely this is a family heirloom. I'm not selling for any price.

So, there's actually there's actually a really important idea here to and I think another way to answer your question, John, is I I realized uh I remember exactly where I was. Uh you guys have both met my wife. I was supposed to be on a date with her at Harry's Pizzeria in the design district in Miami, right?

And I'm not even paying attention what we're talking about. I'm thinking about Founders and I remember like it just where I was like the epiphany I had was like, "Oh, people say if like you love what you do, like you would do it for free. " Yeah. And I was like, "No, no, no. There's a different level.

If you there's a there's a there's you can have such a deep love for what you're doing that people couldn't pay you to stop. " So, it's like the idea has like how much Yep. How much would you have to pay Steve Jobs to not build to not work on Apple or build products? There's no money.

You couldn't you couldn't give him $2 trillion. It didn't matter. This was the sort of the Zuck uh the Zuck acquisition attempt. They said, "Hey, here's a billion dollars. You're 23 or something. " thing and he's like, "But I would just start another social network. This is what I want to work on.

Like, what am I going to do? I like this one. " Amazing. That is the perfect example because there's a bunch there's a bunch of young kids that, you know, h sell their companies, have a bunch of money, but like look at the difference of his life. You no one would know his name. No, who knows what would happen.

It's like now he's like working, you know, the best uh you know, the best 40-year-old public company CEO in the world by far. Yeah. Uh working in the most interesting time, having access to like build some of the most interesting products and then essentially unlimited uh resources. Yeah. Yeah. Um question.

Uh Todd Graves, I'm sure, has like an extreme loyalty to his team and employees at the corporate level and the individual restaurant level. Uh there's sort of a broader playing trend playing out in restaurants.

people have been attacking the sort of like one of the biggest cost centers for restaurants is or probably the biggest is labor and so you have uh we covered yesterday yum brands which is like a $44 billion public company they own KFC Taco Bell Pizza Hut they're trying to integrate sort of robotics on both sides both on the ordering process they're partnering with Nvidia to like do like voice models and uh process you know you're driving through the drive-thru or calling or texting or whatever and then they also are trying going to integrate robotics on uh you know within the actual kitchens just to produce food more cheaply.

How do you think Todd Graves I I I haven't found any commentary from him online about robotics but how do you think he would think about that in a world where I'm sure he has a deep loyalty to his team and loves that it's sort of this human experience going to a raising canes but at the same time his competitors are just going to be like trying to drive cost down as low as possible.

Yeah, that's a good question. I'd love to ask him that. um based on what he says, like he's pretty anti-making decisions just based on financial reasons. Like he he talks a lot of [ __ ] in his interviews about like PE people, what like he's just not a big he's not a fan at all. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

We love private equity here on this show, okay? Let's not slander the good folks over at Black. Dude, some of my one of my two of my closest friends who I love all the and I talk to all the time. They are literally might be the most successful PE people rolling up QSRs. Patrick just did an interview with Matt and Alex.

So I love them too. Um but but Todd Graves does not. He is very anti PE in QSR timeline in turmoil if they start chirping each other. Uh I have a question about uh your point about founder control over the long term never selling owning 100%.

Do you think that there's a need for some sort of maybe cultural shift or even a shift in the way startups are financed in Silicon Valley?

It's just so like the the standard YC playbook for example is like you get three co-founders, you split it equally, then immediately YC takes 10%, then it's like back to back to back 20% rounds. You're diluted down to a few percent, maybe you get some super voting, but you're not paying yourself a good salary.

And so, uh, you know, Jord's kind of talked about maybe we need to normalize some sort of secondary sales so that the the founders can take a little cash out of the business and then actually go in it for the really long term. Maybe we just need, hey, it's okay to pay yourself a really like reasonable salary.

A lot of founders are out there kind of like starving even after they've raised $20 million. What do you think about the structure of Silicon Valley? Like, is the Silicon Valley playbook setting us up for to create the next James Dyson or the next uh or or or the next Todd Graves?

So, when you say, "What do I think about that? " I don't think about it. So, like the it's really bizarre to me. again like I have an unfair advantage because essentially I just talk to dead people all day. I have one-sided conversations with history's greatest founders, right?

So like for like the first four or five hours of my day, I'm usually just reading biographies and then uh I usually have lunch and then in the afternoon I like reread highlights of the stuff I've read over the last like eight years while building the podcast.

Um, and one of the main lessons from all that is just like they do like the people that usually get to the top of their profession or the best at what they do, they do what's best for them regardless of what works for other people.

And so the weird thing that I have is like when I open up Twitter and people arguing about like you should race from this person or you shouldn't race at all or you should do this. It's just like you should do whatever's best whatever is best for like whatever mission you happen to be on.

Um, so I don't have like an opinion of like how other people should do it other than like what do you actually want to do and then figure out what's the best way to go about doing that. And then this is this this was my issue was like uh remember when Paul Graham released like found the founder mode episode or essay.

So many people sent it to me and and like asked me what I thought of it. It's just like I it just was a bizarre reading and I'm a huge fan of his essays in general, but I just think like it missed which something that he obviously knows which is like it just depends on who the founder is as a person.

Like one of my favorite lines, it was this random book on Steve Jobs. You know, I've done like I don't know 10 or 12 episodes on Steve. And it said that Apple is just Steve Jobs with 10,000 lives.

And I think like the the good news like one of the best benefits of being a founder is like you get to create your own world from scratch. You get to choose like what you work on, who's around you, how you go about doing everything.

Um and so I would start with like what do you actually want to do in the world and then work backwards from that. So like I am tech I am like obsessed with control. you you know us three talk basically every day and especially about what's going on with like TPBN.

I told you what's going to [ __ ] happen because it's happened to me. It's like you guys are blowing up. Your podcast is going to get a ton of attention. All the people in your audience want to do deals. They're investors. They're entrepreneurs.

They're going to come to you with all this crazy [ __ ] because they did the same thing.

And for me it's just like I had an insane amount of investment opportunity or people offering to invest in the podcast and or I'd acquire it and like I said no to all of them because the most important thing to me is like control for the long term.

I believe this is my life's work just like Todd Graves on a chicken finger dream. I believe I was put here to do this. I think I'm the right person at the right place with the right set of skills at the right time.

And like I was watching um yesterday I was watching uh my my son turn five and he's obsessed with dinosaurs, right? And so I was like, "Oh, it's a good idea. Let's watch Jurassic Park. " I didn't [ __ ] realize how scary that movie is for a five. Yeah, it was so scary. I tried to do that once, too.

I was like, "I park dinosaurs. My son loves dinosaurs. It's dinosaur time. " And then I'm like, "Oh, pop the brakes. " Yeah. But I had the thought cuz like you see the computers and like everything else. I'm like, "Wait a minute. This this movie came out in '93. " Yeah.

And like if I wanted to do what I'm doing now 20 years ago and you guys too, what would you have to do? You couldn't. you'd have to go knock you'd have to go to a physical building and be like, "Please put me on the air. " It's just so important that like we're doing this at the right time.

So, again, for me, it didn't matter like the the money was not what I'm optimizing for. It was the control and the long-term control because I want to do this until I die. Um, and so for me, it's like control is way more important than than money. Yeah.

I think the question maybe you were getting at is at a high level is are we losing the like true generational founders because they do four back-to-back rounds and then they own 10% of their company and they've got a big board and they and they and and somebody comes and says hey you're experiencing all this like you know craziness we'll just buy the company you'll do an earnout and then you're going to be like worth $100 million you get the but the question the when when you look at you know the the Mark Zuckerberg example it's somebody who maintained extreme control despite doing a bunch of venture rounds and I feel like many founders aspired to that path over the last 20 years, 15 years, whatever.

I know a guy with eight board seats. Not don't wouldn't recommend it, but it is a path to control. Yeah, no. I think like the the the the main thing is like you find something you want to do. Like again, I don't think you could pay Zach to not work at Meta, right? He's got all the money.

Um, you know, I I have just admired people that do things for a very long time. Some of these people I talked to a lot of PE people. They one of my friends has the funniest lines. I think that's just like he says VC gets all the attention. PE gets all the money. And his whole point was just like VC is so loud.

Most of like all the media is obsessed with like fundraising, everything else. So to to a founder, it looks like this is everything that's going on.

I have a weird uh like vantage point in the founder like e ecosystem because like yeah a lot of tech people listen to the podcast but a lot of people like that have billion billion like multi-billion dollar family companies listen to the podcast so like there's just a ton of businesses out there some of them raise money some of them don't I I don't think you're losing anything I just think they're just it's there's a I think one of the it's you're there's like a what's the word I'm looking for it's like there's just a lot of noise that don't that doesn't exactly represent like everything that's going on yeah the next Todd Graves or the next uh you know, James Dyson might be quietly building out there some behemoth that we're just not even hearing about because there's no VCs chattering about it.

So, I just I just tweeted this out uh where it's just like I had um Mid Journey is kind of like that, you know, no no outside capital. People know about it, but Midjourney could become some behemoth that David Holes just owns.

If you're not raising like there's a reason that you have to be loud if you're constantly having to raise money like so I I just did this tweet. It was like I had uh dinner with one of the wealthiest people in the world and uh his family has commissioned two biographies. It's for the family use only, right?

And I was like, "Dude," and he we got along. Like we had a [ __ ] fantastic dinner. I thought he was charismatic, smart, great storyteller. I'm going to hang out with him again again in the 70s. And I was like, "Dude, dude, let me get those biographies. Like I would do such a good job. " He's like, "Absolutely not.

I have no interest in educating my competitors. " I've met a ton of founders like this where I get to go to their company offsite. I've met I've or their warehouses, gone to their company and and they're usually all family-owned businesses and I'm always like, "You're so [ __ ] talented.

Why don't you write an autobiography? Why don't you write a do something? " And they're absolutely not. They're just very very quiet because there's no reason to make noise.

There's also it's also dangerous where this is something Charlie Monger said that was fascinating where he thought it was very it was against human nature for him and Warren to be so wealthy and so loved and his point was that most you know there's that greed doesn't run the world Charlie has a great line he says greed doesn't run the world envy does and so when you're really wealthy there's a lot of envy and so it's actually smart to not advertise that.

Yeah, makes no sense. Yeah. So, it flip it over again. I think it's just Can we flip it over to Jensen? I want to know, I mean, obviously he's in the news. He put on the Super Bowl of artificial intelligence, made a bunch of announcements at uh Nvidia GTC.

And I wanted to know where do you see gaps between Jensen's archetype as a founder from maybe the other Magnificent 7 founders, the Steve Jobs of the world, the Zuck of the world, whoever else you've you've studied? Where are the similarities and differences?

I think they're more similar to each other than they are to like obviously they're more similar to each other than they are to like the general population. I don't feel like I don't think there's a single founder that I've covered that is like the only one. Like he's got a lot of interesting ideas.

Like they're all usually, you know, uh what would be considered like micromanagers. They're obsessed with the details. Like the Todd Graves example, right? He's got 50,000 employees, uh 800 stores. He's opening like a 100 stores every every year.

And before he does the interview, like he interrupts the interview so he can approve the Instagram reel that's going out. Wow.

Same thing with Steve Jobs did the same thing where like there's a great book uh called Insanely Simple which talks about this and it didn't matter if it was like a billboard in Missouri or a full page ad in the Wall Street Journal. Steve Jobs would approve every single ad before it came out and then he'd be calling up.

So, the guy that wrote this book called Insanely Simple is the guy that was actually running Steve Jobs ads. And he says, "Steve would call me at [ __ ] midnight and we'd be debating for an hour over a single word. " So, doesn't feel like that's happening anymore at Apple. No, it's been a little messy lately.

No, no, no. So, I think Jensen's the same way. What I thought was most interesting about him, he is definitely one of the more extreme. Like, he is every single person on that cover on Founders is hardcore and extreme. He is, you know, an he's a he's un he's unusual. He's uncommon amongst uncommon people.

One of my favorite things that he said was that um he likes to torture people to greatness. I thought that was like a a really interesting line. And his whole point was like, you know, people kind of like clip through people and fire people uh really fast.

He's if he felt somebody had potential, they they're just [ __ ] up, like he's just going to torture them into greatness. He's going to make them great. And what you realize is the longer you read this book, there's a book called Nvidia Nvidia Way by Take Him, which is the one I did the episode on.

What you realize is he does that to himself, he torture, he's tortured himself to greatness, where they just had, there's a great story in the book where they had one a blowout quarter, they absolutely [ __ ] killed it.

And he comes in and he tells his team, he's like, "Every morning I wake up, look in the mirror, and I say, you suck. " I love that. the anti manifestation or visualization something odd. How do you how do you square his micromanagement with his uh he's stated that he doesn't have one-on-one meetings very often.

He is a very like kind of scattered organization. It's an interesting thing. It's like kind of like you just dive into a specific thing. How do you think about it? Yeah, he's got 60 direct reports I think in the book.

I think when they start writing the book it's like 30 and I think it goes up to 60 because the book just came out. It's like it's it covers stuff up up until like the recent last few months. Yeah.

Um he actually has a great way to to to describe this that is most interesting where people are saying like how are we going to handle all these agents when they're smarter than we are? And he's like I'm already doing that. He goes my 60 direct reports yep are agents.

They're all smarter at what they're in charge of than I am and I yet I'm able to direct them. There's a great line. Let me see if I can find it. He has this line where he says something about um the company has to be like an F1 uh pit crew probably. Well, he he's describing the way like he organizes it.

And essentially like nobody he he designs he believes the founder or the the leader should design the company not for like what's necessarily best like after they leave, but literally what's best for what they're doing now.

He says, "Ultimately, my E staff, which is his direct ports, ultimately my E staff is something that I have to know how to work with. The company's organization is like a race car. It has to be a machine that the CEO knows how to drive.

" And so, if you think about it's like he made an F1 organization that is tailor suited to him and may not be it's obviously not going to be tailor suited to the person that takes over after him.

Um, I have a totally separate but somewhat related question in that uh certain high-profile investor sold a huge stake in Nvidia in 2019 that would be worth $160 billion uh as of last year. That person is Masa Masayoshi Son. Uh you haven't done an episode on Masa feels like. No, I won't. I [ __ ] won't.

So this uh I I sometimes I get sad because I feel like the great thing about podcasting is like you actually know the person. Like when people meet you and you guys and me, they're like, "Well, I feel like I know you. " It's like you've heard me talk for 100 [ __ ] hours. You do know me, right?

Um and so I had so many people that listen to the podcast like there's this new uh first English uh biography of Masa called The Gambler. You have to do it. It's going to be a great episode. And I started reading it and I was like, "Oh, this is interesting. " He's kind of like nutty. And then uh this happened this week.

This was supposed to be the next episode of Founders. And no, listen, rule number two in the center family is mind your own business. So like I don't I I don't care what other people do for a living. I don't care how they do it. I really doesn't bother me. I wind up [ __ ] hating this guy halfway through the book.

Like I just I found it I found it disgusting. Like and it's a it's like So we have a bunch of mutual friends. We've spent a lot of time together. We're like legit friends off camera, right? We talk all the time. I'd be very concerned if I like ran into people and like Kugan's a [ __ ] liar. He's [ __ ] me over.

The entire book, the first half of the book is all these people that Masa did business with that is like that guy lies all the time. He screwed me over. So then I then I fast forward and I read the last chapter and it's like he's super depressed. He's like I've wasted my life.

I have an he says I have an ugly face which is kind of weird. Uh, and he's just like, and would you realize like he never he was just so obsessed with he is a legit gambler and it's like a sad existence. He didn't build a product that made somebody else's life better. He didn't do any of that.

And so I was like, I don't give a [ __ ] about wait some cost of spending half a week. I if I'm going to make an episode on this guy, that means I have to live inside his world for like another 40 hours and I'm just not willing to do that. So I just threw the book across the side of the room.

I was like, I'm not doing this. Crazy. Wow. Makes sense. Let's uh I mean I'm glad that you have a beautiful face. Uh and it's always great to have you on the show. Thanks. We'll have to have you back soon. This is fantastic. It's great seeing you in a jacket. I'll say it again.

Now that you set the bar, make sure Hey, this summer when we're doing this live in person. Yeah. I mean, seriously, we still we still have to do the goat debate. The greatest entrepreneur of all time, we have a bunch of de we've been debating it in in a chat room for a while. Let's do that in person.

We have to in tuxedos. If it's the goat debate, we have to take it once with a bottle of Don Peron. Hopefully, I would love that. That's right. Well, thanks for stopping by, David. This is fantastic. Great to see you. Always great. We'll talk to you soon. Bye. Love you. Bye. Love you, too. Fantastic.

Um, I told David last time we talked, he ended the call, he's like, "Love you guys. " And I'm like, if you're just tuning into the show for the first time and you're a Senra fan and it's a it's a it's great. It's crazy about Masa. It makes sense. Um, we'll have to get Delian's take on Masa before. Yeah.

I mean, I'm I'm I'm sure that I think I think David Ch chang changes his tune if Masa comes in and says, "Hey, look, we're going to lever you up. We're going to take F founders podcast. We're going to put uh 20 billion in at a hundred billion pre and we're really going to take this to the next level.

" I think David all of a sudden says, "Well, yeah, that's enough to live at an Aman for the rest of my life. " And so he does it. No, there's no there's no price. You can't you can't buy him out. There's no price. He Masa could get us on his side if he took PETA into a forprofit. That would be a fantastic move.

I would love that. Anyway, I think we got Delian in the Temple of Technology. Welcome to the