Lulu Cheng Meservey on the next era of founder comms: 'attention is all you need'

no a lot of people said, "Oh, we got Lulu in the chat. Let's do it. " Hey, there she is. How you doing? Hey, good to see you. Welcome to the Temple of Technology. We're live. You're live. The Fortress of Finance. The fortress of finance. The capital of capital. Great to see you.

So much surprised it took this long to to get you on the show. Former brother of the year 2024 and for some reason we had to do 75 guests before we could get you to sit down. What happened? I had to make sure the show was good. Oh yeah. Okay. I I big dog in us is reasonable. Fair.

But we're glad you could take time out of your incredibly busy day to sit down with us, chat. Uh there's so much to talk about. I want to talk about the comms around Saratoga water. I want to talk about uh morning routines.

Did you wake up at uh 3:40 this uh this morning and dive directly into a pool or are you taking a little bit slower today? No, every morning I dive for five minutes. Yep. In the medium midair suspension is four. I like to go for five, sometimes seven. Fantastic. Average five for me. Great.

I duck my face like every once every 10 minutes, I think. Just got to go a little bit above and beyond. Uh stay ahead of the pack. Rub the banana peel. I don't just do the face. I do the neck, get behind the ears. So, fully ready for this show. Always taking it always taking it to the next level.

Uh what what do you uh you had critiqued that Saratoga Water uh their their last post was a bunch of was hashtag soup? You described it. Yep. Uh how if you were if they were a client, do you have anything particularly that you would have advised them on of what they could have done better?

Yeah, you're I I don't have any fancy water companies in my portfolio. Not yet. You might be getting a call later today. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm not I'm not fully diversified yet. I thought I was. Um, okay. I I think they just have to wake up here. There's somebody whose job is to run social for them.

I'm sure there's like a person whose area of responsibility is this. And they were just completely out of the game. Like some people said they were on Instagram, but on is pretty generous there. Like they were uh present on Instagram with a check mark. The posts weren't actually that good.

I I think there there's some brands that are like boycotting X because of Elon, whatever, but you're just kind of hurting yourself. Like it's um like you're owning your own balance sheet to try to own Elon. You're owning your own cash flow because you're mad at Elon.

Just like go on X, make money, do what you need to do, forget about your personal feelings. I don't know if that's actually the reason, but if it is, it's a bad reason. It does feel like it's a bit of a 15 minutes of fame moment for them. And so I I wonder like what is the good ending here?

like they quote tweet the video, they lean in, they're making jokes, they capture a bunch of, you know, attention, maybe they grow their account from a thousand followers to even like 100K because it's such a viral moment and a billion people saw the morning routine.

Uh, but then what do they do with that after after that? I think they have to Okay, I think the gold standard for this before the famous rug was the Hakua girl. like she took the 15 minutes and just extended it beyond what the laws of physics seem to suggest was possible. Yep.

And um I think what the water company could have done here to to extend would be like lean into the routine like partner on some routines. Uh lean into the unhinged. Like I know that they're this sophisticated fancy type of person but still sometimes you just got to roll with it.

um strike up some partnerships, have like follow on content, like lean into the funny, just do the bar is like literally anything. And then it's like getting creative, and then it's like something really enduring.

And if they want to do something really enduring, maybe it's like a program, maybe it's like some popup stuff to just stay top of mind. But the the actual bar of just like showing a pulse was not that hard to hit. Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like the challenge is I have no idea what Saratoga's brand stands for, but now in my mind it stands for getting up at 3:45, putting the banana on your face, having four minutes of air time.

And so it's almost like they they they I'm I'm the most water obsessed person that I know by a long shot and I didn't know what they stood for before.

It's almost like the right thing to do is that the the right deal to do is you hire you just say, "Hey, we're going to kind of scrap our our brand from the last 200 years. " I think they're a very old company. We're now the Ashen brand. Uh, you know, we're signing we're signing him to a maxed out. It's just 150.

Yeah, it's 150 year old. 1972. Well, listen, it's time. It's time for a re do a brand partnership with Chaita Banana. That'd be great. Do the banana collab. You could be doing like some people commented when he opens up the journal. He's on page one of his journal. Oh, yeah.

like a notion partnership that like the world is your oyster here. There's a lot you could do. Yeah. Uh let let's talk about uh you created a meme going going direct. Uh I I feel like it's one of the the most powerful. Yeah. Like basically memes trend of the year potentially trend of the year.

I mean that and founder mode are the two when you think about when you think about things that have sort of influenced founder thought in the last 5 years. It happens to be in my view going direct in founder mode totally and they go they go hand in hand.

Uh h have you I'm sure you're already thinking about sort of what what the next play is. Is the next is the next play going indirect sort of like it going getting puff pieces you know getting puff pieces and stuff like that.

Um but no but what what do you think is uh now that sort of this sort of like way of comms has become the standard is this just the enduring approach for the next however many years until we get better institutions or you got to you got to always outrun yourselves. I'm really glad you brought this up.

We did not coordinate by this by the way like you guys gave me virtually nothing to prepare with and no touch points. I came like fully unprepared. Thank you.

Um so we didn't coordinate but I actually had been thinking about this because rot rastra launched around a year ago almost exactly a year ago and in that intervening year founder mode has kind of become part of the cannon like it's here it's not evenly distributed maybe deoid is not going direct but like founders going direct is now part of the default playbook for comms like any YC company that's coming out into the world today they're thinking the founder is going to go direct um but the thing is you have to outrun yourself like once something becomes the thing that everybody does that becomes the new norm and you always want to be standing up above the norm.

Like I remember for a while last year I was doing manifestos. I was having all of like my founders and my companies do manifestos and then for a three month span it was just like every other week a manifesto. It actually be I kind of got like manifestoed out and same with like the secret plans. Same with vibe reels.

Same thing kind of burned through them. That one happened really fast. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry everyone. Yeah. Well, well, so how do you how do you think so? Montage wheels, guys. Yeah. So, we we just had uh GMO on Versel creates Nex. js.

They release it to the world and then they say, "Yeah, we'll manage it for you if you want or you can just use it by yourself. " You basically open source the concept of going direct, but then you have sort of playbooks that you run with your founders.

Is there anything else that uh you know the thing about something like going direct is you can tell somebody exact any any sort of like highly specialized skill set. Double fisting Celsius. What is that in front of your hands? I go I go y John goes Celsius. That's uh that's pretty reflective of our brand. Sorry.

It it triggered me cuz the uh week before last I had two. I didn't know how caffeinated. Oh, they have a lot of caffeine in there. I needed like a defibrillator. Well, Red Bulls 400. Yeah, it is six Red Bulls, I think, technically. Um, who's counting though? Yeah, got to be careful.

No, but but the idea is like is there other things that are that maybe fall outside of that that you feel like you can sort of like open source? Like things that you can just tell the world they're very hard to execute, so they should still go to uh your firm to actually pull them off.

Um, but what else are you thinking about kind of like open sourcing? Yeah. Or they can just do it. I I like the concept of open sourcing.

like in fact you you um should be able to do it by yourself whether I get hit by a bus or your team get hits by the you know gets hit by a bus there it should never just like rest on any one person I think the next era so so going direct was probably the big thing for the last year I think the next era is in shorthand attention is all you need like in a world where AI can just do anything all the time you can see people like shipping and launching stuff it used to be monthly then weekly and now daily there's just like huge drops all the time and It's a tree falling quietly in the forest unless you can get people to actually care about it.

So the two things are number one, how to get the attention and just like focus it for a small period of time. And then number two, how to harvest it and turn it into something like the big mistake that founders make is they'll do something to catch a little bit of attention and then it goes away.

Like we're talking about Saratoga water. It goes away and you didn't do anything with it. So, you're doing like attention catch and release like like uh like uh California with illegal migrants or like sports fishing. Like don't do the catch and release. Hold on to the attention and turn it into money.

Like your job is turning attention into money. I mean that's the beauty of the Ashton Hall thing. He he went super viral but he already had been on Instagram for five years, had millions of followers over there. He goes super viral. He already has a whole business set up on coaching and fitness stuff.

like there is a funnel and if you found him from this expost, you're going to be paying him if you if you like him very quickly.

Whereas with Hua Girl, we were talking about this like she had to spin up a podcast and then I'm sure at a certain point she was like, "Well, this crypto thing seems like a good way to make money. " Whereas Ashton already has a business and can just go capitalize on. Oh, we got a delivery here. Thank you.

Thank you, brother. Here we go. We got the Saratoga. You guys should do the dunk lives. The new ice bucket challenge. We also need bowls to dunk our face in. Uh so so here's a question for you that I that I think is actually an interesting one. So uh the three of us are are are dear friends with David Senra.

Uh and David has sort of studied all these entrepreneurs that were able to build these massive careers or massive sort of family empires completely in silence, right? He made a post he made a post two weeks ago that was something to the effect of like I talked to this family.

They had written biographies about the family and he asked if he could do an episode on them and they were like absolutely not. We're not giving away our our sort of secrets.

Is do you think that, you know, do you think that that the playbook of just sort of like building in silence and you're sort of in the shadows and nobody, you know, and not really sharing what you're working on.

Do you think businesses like that will will there seems like there's tons of examples throughout history that was pre- internet, right? If you take if you take the strategy of of we're gonna kind of like build in silence, you know, be very secretive.

Does that playbook work when you have 10 competitors that are going to be extremely loud constantly sort of like accumulating attention? And I just wonder if that's sort of a pre- internet strategy.

So the the thing here is right, you know, one day soon maybe you'll have the one person billion dollar company, but for now the company that wins is the company that can recruit and attract the best talent.

And the pool of super elite differentiated talent is pretty concentrated and they're all being head-hunted by like the same firms. And so the way to get ahead is to get that talent before your competitors can. And they'll join you if they know you and trust you and believe in you.

And so if you're someone who's already a household name, like if Palmer Lucky went silent for a while, it'd be fine because people know what he's about. Ilia Sitsker has been silent for quite a while. and people know, you don't have to try to figure out like what am I going to get if I try to go work for them.

Um, and they have like demand knocking down on on their doors. But if you don't have that, then you do need to build it.

And um, I think where your question is coming from too is like we see a lot of founders get dunked on for like yapping too much and posting too much and it's like when are you when are you building your company? You're tweeting like every hour. And I think the the one thing to know is it's not about how much you yap.

It's about the shipyap ratio. You have to respect the shipyap ratio. And if the ratio is right, you can get away with anything. That's great. Uh I Yeah, Elon Elon's a perfect example of this. Nobody's like, "Hey, what you bro? You're posting, you know, 20 times an hour. Relax. " Okay. The rockets are are being caught.

The rockets are being caught. It's sitting in the chopsticks. He's he can post what he wants out. Uh on ongoing direct, I've always thought that there's a little bit more nuance there.

Obviously, it's it's it's really key to tell someone that like, hey, it's okay to start posting and and going direct and and h doing, you know, founderled communications, but that doesn't mean that you should close off the indirect channels. And I see it almost as like uh like tiers or levels.

So, level one is like you start telling the world what you're building, build some credibility, maybe there's some posts on X from the founders's account.

Then you start doing new media like podcasts like this calling in telling you know you're using other people's platforms but you're accelerating and then eventually the traditional media comes in and writes like the big profile and that still has a lot of benefit.

Can you talk to us about how founders should think about riding up that curve and where the value is across all three of those? Yeah. So roughly you want to think of it as ex uh as like concentric circles going outwards. Sure. And you cannot mess up the order.

So the inner the innermost circle is your co-founders and executives and the people who work for you and they have to believe and you have to fully saturate them with the propaganda and the sense of mission before you go out to the next circle.

Next circle maybe is investors board and then you get to customers and then you get to maybe regulators, maybe other people.

But the problem with trying to skip one of these in the sequence is let's say that you didn't brief let's say that you're launching like a new mission and you didn't um brief your employees on this refreshed mission, but you go to the press and now your employees are reading it in the press and there's a disconnect.

Two things can happen. One, they're like, "WTF? This isn't what I signed up for. Now you have a world of pain because any pain coming from inside the house is like a thousand times worse than external.

" and two, your employees have freedom of speech and they have Twitter accounts and they can go on X and post like,"Well, wait a second. I'm not Are you sure this isn't this doesn't seem right?

" And then all of a sudden everything um everything downstream of employees has lost credibility because people figure if it's true, employees would know about it. And so se sequencing it correctly and not getting too greedy too fast is really important. Like always go from the smaller circles to the outer circles.

That makes sense.

How do uh in terms of getting uh every every company wants to get attention the challenge is that there are some sort of cheap things that you can do that get massive amount of attention that are sort of like you know basically like slop like I I won't name it but there was a launch video in the last 30 days that was just in my group chats was like super cringe but then it got like millions of views and I was looking at it I'm like all right like this seems like cheap attention But then maybe it just got so many views that it works.

Talk about um maybe talk about like taste when it comes to getting attention and is there more longevity if you're sort of building that sort of slower ba base of sort of like tasteful releases and messaging and comms versus like the cheap high attention moments. Yeah. Tasteful tasteful vids.

Um so there's there's two things. One is there, you know, the the crazy hot chart. Yeah, the crazy hot chart. Of course. Yeah. Who doesn't? There's like there's like a company hot chart where if you're really hot as a company, there's a lot that you can get away with.

But if you're new and people don't know a lot about you, then every single thing you do or say is like disproportionately affecting how they think of you.

And so if you have a 10-year history of just like wins and bangers and you have one thing that is kind of weird or a flop or a little bit cringey, you can kind of get away with it. It gets absorbed a little bit better.

But if your company is launching for the first time and the one thing people see is 100% of the data points that they have about you, you can't really afford that. So I'm not saying don't take risks.

I'm saying that the importance of taste goes up like even even more when you're new and there's not a lot of data points about you. And then the second thing about um just taste versus quantity is a lot of things that get a ton of likes and engagement are just total garbage. And the responses are all like bots.

Like if you go to a TechCrunch um X post and look at the replies, it's just straight up bot replies. Um if you go to these uh these like framework bros or I don't know the like mental model bros. Sure. Sure.

here's what happened this week thread bros um had a lot of engagement but I would not trade that for the world and so the thing to look for is like who is in the replies and who is not in the replies because replies are usually really positive too but it's positive from people that like it's a counter signal if they like Yeah exactly it's all about signal right signal do you think the best sort of like going direct founder mode to put it in one bucket CEO OS are sort of like born that way and maybe you need to help uncover that ability of like sort of communicating their story to the world or is it something that anybody can figure out with sort of proper training and understanding sort of social mechanics and uh the platforms that we distribute content on and all that kind of thing.

Okay. Um, there are different archetypes of super cracked, impressive founder that you want to just throw your life to the side and go follow them and and do whatever it takes to get on that rocket ship kind of feeling. There's different archetypes of founders who can inspire that feeling.

But the key is you can be in an archetype, but you can't be between archetypes. You can't be in the cringy uncanny valley of here's the real you and here's the online you and you sort of like make it halfway there. Um you can be the like super brash uh controversial loud um type. You can be the meme funny type.

You can be the strong silent type of founders and just like one thing once a year. But if you're type three and you're trying to force yourself into type one, it's going to be painful for everybody. like most of all you and people can tell, right?

So, so I I think it's less about there's one type and you have to be it and can you learn it or do you have to be born it? It's more like there's different types and you can fit into one of those types. Um, but you can't try to jump from one type to another and kind of like fall into the abyss halfway in between. Yeah.

I think about the difference between like a David Holes and a Justin Mayers. Like Justin is doing threads, but they're very detailed on health and breaking stuff down. David Holes just shows up once a week and tweets something like about the future and how AI will like change like alien civilizations.

Yeah, alien civilizations. But they're both great posters, but if they tried to swap it would be really weird, really really weird. You sometimes see people like um online laring as Palmer. Yeah. They're trying to be someone else. Yep. Exactly. They're like I want a chip on my shoulder.

And and I always say this for the going direct thing is like how do you communicate? Because there are some people who their their authentic communication is best in a blog post or a long post. Other people can be really piffy and just post bangers.

Other people are really great on video and should just do a podcast circuit. Other people are great on you know national TV and so figuring out where the founder sits and then accelerating that instead of being like well X is the popular one so I got to figure that out. You it can be very hard.

we were talking about and you were you were saying I should describe it as default out. Remember? Oh, default out. I don't remember that. Explain that. Weren't we? You and I were talking. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Standard out. Standard out. You were talking Oh, right.

So, in programming in programming standard out as the way as like a as like a um a metaphor for the the default uh the default type of medium that somebody should use. And if they need to go outside of that, they can, but everybody has like a strongest like a default medium.

And um you can you don't have to like only stick to that like you can go outside of it. Some some of these like Andre Karpathy posts are actually a blog post and just dumps it into the Xbox and hits post and it's fine. Yeah.

I mean, a lot of that's about the flexibility of the X platform, but there are definitely great CEOs out there who's like their default out should just actually being going and sitting down with, you know, Andrew Ross Sorcin and doing an interview and they will they will crush that and if they and then and then that clip should live on X and someone else should, but they should not try and turn it into a banger hilarious post because like that's just not authentic to who they are.

Uh, I have a I I have a prompt for you. Uh, one of our one of our 2025 goals is to get a glowing puff piece in a mainstream journalism outfit. Uh, what's the strategy for getting TVPN on the cover of the New York Times or the New Yorker? What should we do? Oh, the journal would be Yeah, the journal would be ideal.

So, how can we reverse engineer this? Take us through the steps. I think Financial Times, too, for you guys. I I see you um looking really nice with that salmon pink backdrop. Oh, yeah. That'd be fantastic. Okay. Yeah, financial times. How do we get the profile done?

Okay, so the first question is um what is the business goal here? Like how do you convert attention to money, right? And you guys convert Okay, let's just work through it live.

You guys convert attention to money by getting a lot of listeners so that you have leverage with advertisers and then the advertisers pay you and then it grows and continues being the most profitable podcast in the world. That's the business, baby. Number one question is who are those marginal listeners?

Are they people in tech that you haven't reached yet and you're going to get more bang for buck by um converting like people in tech who have been living in a cave and don't listen or are you going to go out and reach a new community that you haven't gotten into yet or you going to go to some like in between like adjacent community where it's people who in uh let's say it's people in DC who now understand that half of Silicon Valley is in Washington DC and they need to understand tech better.

So it's like policy people who want to understand tech. So, so here's my first question to you is like who is that next um group of listeners that you're going after? It's probably slightly older public markets investors.

We we're pretty big in the private markets for tech, but moving or are we we like to think of it as like YC Demo Day was our NFL combine. Uh earnings season is our Super Bowl and so we want to deliver on you know a Super Bowl level event for TBPN covering public company earnings mag seven that. Okay.

So you want to go to sellside analysts, you want to go to um uh the big banks, you want to go to probably the exchanges have some events um like New York Stock Exchange has events. You probably want uh things that are like Citadel adjacent like DEI adjacent to get into that community.

And also there's a lot of overlap between young tech people and young um hedge fund and quant trader people. Obviously like the young Jane Street people just go back and forth.

And so if that's the audience then I would work backwards like reverse engineer this whole thing and think okay where are they getting their information and what do they already care about that we can tap into?

Like it's it's it's hellishly difficult to make people care about some new thing that they've just never heard of. Yeah. Whereas and Derek Thompson had this insight too. The best viral thing is something that's a little bit new but a little bit familiar. Yeah. Okay. Let's say that we're talking to those people.

You're probably gonna aim for I mean they'll read Wall Street Journal, they'll read Financial Times, let's just say journal because the payw wall is less strict. Um now you want to think about how do you fall into one of the coverage areas like are are you in tech, are you in culture, are you in finance or something?

So there for example um uh New York Times has a guy who is like between tech and culture. Yeah.

And so maybe someone like that or let's say it's the journal and um their tech honestly their their tech desk their tech team is in like shambles right now because they had this super bizarre layoff a few weeks ago and there's just like a crazy management decision to lay off a bunch of AI and tech people the cusp of it was crazy.

where you're Yeah. So maybe you want to aim for like culture, finance, and then now you're putting together two pieces. One piece is like what are the uh what do those young hedge fund analysts or whatever care about and what are they thinking about?

They're probably trying to understand what's coming out of the tech world and which companies are worth watching versus which are not.

and they can see publicly available information which is very scant but they're trying to read behind the scenes of like which founders are respected and how good are they really and can they recruit that kind of thing and then what does the paper cover and the paper probably covers big trends and what's happening in the world of AI like uh as we approach AGI what are changes happening in the world so and then the third circle is like the unique perspective that you guys bring so I would start by not doing a pitch at all just vibing networking, going out for drinks, chilling, and starting to talk about what's in the middle of that ven diagram, which is like you have the unique experience.

It's interesting to the people you're trying to reach and it's interesting to what the journal has been covering.

do that like for three months or so and then figure out one hook that's in the news and then offer to do a deep dive into the hook and then have somebody who's not you like have somebody else that they respect who's in your network and their network tell them or like like a me or like a founder like an Eric Lime you know uh go to them and just tell them like this is the thing blowing up in tech and they should really take a deeper look and at that point you're familiar to them.

Familiarity breeds affection, positive feelings, but it also breeds credibility. Um, so people who are told a fact 10 times tend to believe that the fact is true just because they've heard a lot.

So at this point, you're familiar, you have the story dialed in, you have your unique area of expertise, and then you have some third party validator telling them to look deeper into it, and that's how it begins. Well, thanks for coming on the most podcast in the world. Last one. I know you we've got a minute left.

uh are we try not to swear on this show because swearing is vulgar and we're very short bearish uh using cuss words online right now. How are you advising your clients in a world where you know big names are thrown around mean words?

Um, I think it's the same thing as before, which is like whichever bucket you're in, stay in the bucket. And if like if there's a founder who just talks like a sailor and that's how they are. Um, you can try to ask them to clean it up. I've never seen that work. Okay.

I've just never had an experience where someone tells the founder like, "Clean up the potty mouth and talk different and they actually do. " Yeah. And so it's just that's your archetype. You stay there.

But I will say the big takeaway if people are trying to figure out like what is the next era of comms and just if there's one thing I as a founder need to know about about building a cult and a movement around my company, it's we're we're entering the era of personality hires with respect and affection.

You guys ultimate personality hires. I'm one too. Safe space. It's okay. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers to that. But in a world where AI is better than us at pretty much everything, every human is going to be a personality hire. So just figure out what your lean is is and lean into that.

And if you have that fire in you and you get into fights once in a while, it's not the worst thing. And if you don't, don't try to LAR as Palmer Lucky and find the fights just so that you can have something to beef over. Just find your lane. Be in the lane.

Don't try to jump into a lane that is disingenuous and unnatural for you because people sniff it out. Yeah, that's really good advice. I like that a lot. Authenticity, as silly as it sounds. Great. Well, I have to say, thank you for coming on.

Uh, when your clients have historically that I'm aware of, have come on the show. I'm sure there's been some that I'm not aware of that have come on the show. I always come away and just tell John, ah, he was too too he was too media trained. Like, he's just too prepared, too good.

Uh, so you're doing great work and uh thank you for for uh for being a a the former brother of the year and a friend of the show. We'll see what happens this year. Keep up the good work. You might be Just be clear. Just be clear. It could be two times. The ceremony.

You need to do the ceremonial where I go and put the crown and then we all cry and we have Yes. Well, I mean, we're going to have a black tie event this year for the awards show and I'm sure you'll be invited. That's it. Perfect. All right. Fantastic. Amazing. Thanks for stopping by. Take care. Bye. That was great.

Uh, lots of great insights from Lulu as always. Um, what's your review of the Saratoga water? Is this gonna Is this going to put Rurora out of business? Is this going to put every water company out of business? They're getting so much. Let's do a taste test. Tastes good. I mean, it tastes fine. It's okay.

Uh, this just screams to be the restaurant that a mid restaurant or the water that a mid restaurant would stock. Okay. Trying to be like, "Oh, yeah. We have bottled still. " Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, we have Saratoga. Okay, Saratoga. Yeah, I think it's I I I think it's fun that it's going viral and good luck to the team.

No, I'm I'm happy for them because I'm I enjoy and appreciate value creation. So, I'm glad they're they're doing I'm sure their numbers today. Fantastic. They must be so happy. Yeah. Every single uh Well, you know what they should do if they want to keep up the sales coming out of this viral sensation?

They should buy some ads on buy every billboard in the United States. really should just take advantage of this moment. Go on adqu. com. They have out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out of home advertising. Only adqu combines technology.

Out of home expertise and data to enable efficient, seamless ad buying across the globe. It's great. Uh do do you want to dive into cloudflare or should we just move on to some timeline? What what are you feeling right now? Um how much did we actually get into of Cloudflare? I feel like we didn't start Cloudflare.

Um, but they are the third player in this uh in this debate. We're going to have Amad Msad from uh Replet on in 30 minutes and I thought it'd be good to kind of show the