WAP founder Steven Schwartz on building a stealth 'future of work' platform for Gen Z entrepreneurs

bring him in. There he is. Hey, welcome to the show. What's up, guys? How are you? We're great. How are you? I like your bananas. Oh, thank you. Yeah, we were inspired. We're doing the morning routine. We got the Saratoga water right here. We're taping our mouths.

We can't tape our mouths during the show, but it's been good. Uh, how are you doing? Can can you give us a little uh brief intro on yourself, your company, what's new? Yeah. Um, so I'm Stephen Schwarz.

Um, I uh grew up learning how to program pretty early and um I basically spent all my childhood um going Facebook group to Facebook group and selling different people software and um met some people really early on that I'm still working with and um you can kind of consider us like chronically online kids and we figured out a lot of ways to make money on the internet and um segueed that into a platform called [ __ ] where we help people make money on the internet and um a lot of [ __ ] is going on right now.

I think we just released a lot of new products and um someone leaked our our fund raise a year ago. So um I think there's been a lot of a lot of um people reaching out to us and uh things are really busy right now. So um we're it's getting pretty crazy.

Where did the name come from and why didn't you release the funding information? Yeah.

Um, the name came from we we actually just purchased a ton of the domains throughout our our early years and um we just every project we had we picked a random domain off the off the shelf and we'd always buy like auctions ending soon and domains are about to expire and we had w.

io and looked like a cool fanatically sounding name and and now it stands for we help offers pop and um I think was super random. So, so that that's where it came from. And um we didn't announce the fund raise.

I think because like that our goal is not to raise money and and I think um our customers don't really give a [ __ ] about how much money we raised or anything like that. And I think it's more distracting than not and even the people that we want to work with and and whatnot.

I don't think that um the good people really care so much about all the buzzy stuff that you might want to talk about online. So, I think we were trying to just stay pretty low-key. It's it more distracting than not. Cool. Uh yeah, talk a little bit about more about the team dynamic.

Sounds like you had just worked on a ton of different projects with the founding team. Uh was it was it faded that you guys were all going to work together forever? Like yeah, talk about that. Yeah. So I met um someone named Cameron in a Facebook group. We were like 13 years old.

He made a post saying he's looking for an iOS developer to help him build some projects. And I I slid into his DMs and u we started building different iOS apps together in like 2013 and um selling those those apps to people in the Facebook group.

And um from there we built games, we built um chat apps, we built marketplaces, we had our own agency and um kind of just like so many different things. And then I think um during co it became clear that everybody in the world they didn't really like their job. They didn't want to sit behind a desk all day.

They either got fired or they didn't really like it. They wanted to travel. They were at home and um people were pretty addicted to the internet. So um it was kind of like the whole world was waking up to what we had done our whole life.

And um when that happened, we found a lot of forums were actually meant for selling software. And um we started selling software in there just for for fun and we was trying to make a little bit extra cash and u Cameron found one and we were starting to make like a couple thousand dollars a week from it.

Like what the hell is this? People are cash apping each other, selling each other for desktop software and and um it was the same desktop software we built when we were younger. So we were like why don't we just start selling it?

And um made a lot of money and and we were like let's build a platform where we can actually sell it and structure the delivery of the software and accept payments on it. And people liked that a lot more than the the forums.

And um pretty quickly people asked if they could also sell on the platform and we added um the necessary functionality for that to happen. And over the past couple years I think people were asking us hey can we also sell this? Can we also sell this? Can we also sell this?

And and I think um we started to build a lot of that and now people are selling all sorts of stuff.

I think maybe for the first couple years of our business, it was really like we're building a better Shopify for more digitally native businesses and maybe you can kind of think about it like retail stripe and then um before we knew it we had a couple hundred thousand people coming to the site each month and buying something and we were like how can we make this a little bit better where we reduce the barrier of entry for people that are trying to sell something.

So you don't actually have to program software, you don't have to have a Discord server where you have to come and plug it into our website. Let's just build Discord and and at least the parts that matter.

and we started to build um things like chat and forums and live streams and all these different uh ways to engage and connect with with your customer base and that's where we are now and um and yeah so I think on one end we have like retail stripe retail Shopify and um and now we have a lot of consumer functionality to chat and message and interact.

Yeah. Uh question going back a little bit to the raise and then I have some stuff uh related to the product. Uh have you guys been profitable this entire time? You guys are the make money app. I imagine you guys like uh you know running a good business yourself. Maybe talk about that.

Yeah, so when we first started we were bootstrapped for like the first six months and then someone tried to acquire us and and we said no and raised our first money from a couple people and um since then we've definitely had a couple profitable months.

I think usually um before each fund raise we we had some a lot of months were cash flow positive and um to take it up a notch when we raised a little bit more money and um I think after we do that we obviously ramp up spend and and start investing in some pretty cool areas. So, I I uh we've had profitable months.

Right now, we're we're definitely not um cash flow positive, but I think we could be if we wanted to stop um investing in the places we're growing. And I mean, our our model is is lent itself pretty well to making money. And I mean um we only make money when people make money on the platform.

And people are making a lot of money in the platform. So, uh we're certainly making good amount of of revenue and um we're also investing a lot of that back into the platform. Uh talk about hype generally.

you you don't care to announce fund raise that gets hype in the in the venture world but at the rate that you're growing I imagine at some point you know I can imagine WAP is a public company and you know you are going up against giants right you know Shopify you are I'm sure directly competitive in in many ways uh and I'm sure you're going to enter other areas will there come a time when uh you want to you know you know do the tech podcast circuit you know you're on our show which is which is awesome But seems like you've been very intentional about uh I remember hearing about uh from from carried no interest about [ __ ] like last year at some point he's like [ __ ] is the most underhyped just absolute monster like nobody's paying attention to them.

They're absolutely crushing it. Uh but will there do you do you ever see a moment where the the flip uh you'll kind of like flip the the switch uh or you guys just going to stay focused on your customers forever? I mean, I think it's we're definitely going to stay focused on our customers forever.

And I think we do the right marketing to the right customers. And I think that um it's no shock that the people in tech don't necessarily know about [ __ ] so much because they're not really the ones who are starting um many businesses, right? They're trying to go for the super scaled up businesses.

And I think we we have generate millions of views probably per day at this point across social media for [ __ ] And that's mostly targeting um our core customer base, which is super scrappy young people that um want to do something that's entrepreneurial and start a business.

So, I think um we're definitely loud where we need to be and I mean we have a YouTube channel now that generates several hundred thousand views a video and um we're definitely loud where we need to be, but I I don't think that um I mean recently we released a new product that's like getting a lot of attention that people are in tech are also finding a lot of value on and um I think that's going to become more relevant to go on these types of things and be loud.

It's called content rewards. It's basically um kind of think about it like a probably a 5 to 10x cheaper CPM than any other platform that exists right now. And um all UGC doesn't really feel like an ad. It's not exactly an ad. And um people are getting a lot of of views from that.

And and um we certainly are experiencing a huge lift from that. That's like productizing the sort of clipping which has been happening, right?

You know, remember I think people first realize that like Andrew Tape was doing it because you know you you you see videos of him that just were made by him, but then also you know shared by completely other people that were funneling into his program to monetize.

Is that is that the you know we've talked about kind of the different eras of making money online.

It was like selling Pokemon cards or trading sneakers and is like clipping is that like if you're in high school today and you have no skills but you just want to hustle is that like how do you see that as like that's the the sort of it uh entrepreneurial activity. Yeah.

So I would look at it as almost like a big funnel, right? So maybe you start with that and I think you graduate towards maybe operating your own business one day even on the platform. So, I mean, what's happening right now is we're having it's the fastest growing way people can earn on [ __ ] right now.

And um we already have thousands of people that are earning money. Some actually a pretty significant amount. Um I think we've paid out some people even for our own marketing over $10,000 total.

Um and those are definitely people in high school that are really good at just making videos and they know the trends on social media.

And I think the future isn't really about like everybody kind of knows an ad when they see it and it's not really as effective as it used to be um to to just run an ad on on Meta and expect uh people to resonate well with it.

So, I definitely think it's a future and I definitely think that we'll see a lot of the people that are clipping and and making EGC content right now um go on to build really awesome businesses because they they one they have a little bit of a taste of making money on the internet.

They have a KYC payments account all set up. They know how to market very effectively. They know how to uh what the content rewards are. They know what they're marketing and they're in pretty in tune with everyone that's actually paying them to market. So, they know it works.

And absolutely, I think that's a it's a huge part of the future and u we look at it as maybe like the the first step in in earning your your first dollar online. Can you talk a little bit about the differences between Gen Z and millennial entrepreneurs these days? Like what what's changing, what's better, what's worse?

Yeah, I think I would say Gen Z's prioritize fun. And it sounds kind of silly, but I think like nobody really wants to work on something if they're not having fun. And I think that um even if you give somebody a lot of money, it's it's difficult to actually um get up out of bed every day and and start to do the work.

And I think that we're seeing that all over the place where um people are just fine making $3,000 and traveling throughout Asia. And and that's like a very very different mindset where it's like I need to go to college. I need to make $200,000 a year. Um otherwise I didn't do it.

And I think people in Gen Z are kind of just doing it. And and they're having a lot of fun with that. And I mean we look at WAP as like [ __ ] is we we we are building the future of work and I think that the future of work is very fun should be engaging.

People are making a lot of money by making funny memes and like that's a that's a complete shift of like value creation and and I think the Gen Z is all over that and and um they they must bring fun into work and that is I think the key difference of what uh millennials versus Gen Z. Talk about live streaming.

You guys support live streaming. It's been something that's been big in Asia. It's probably big here. I'm not I haven't purchased a product through a live stream myself, so it doesn't feel big yet, but is it is it already do you feel like it's already mainstream?

Like you're you're obviously bullish enough on it to like integrate it into your platform. Would love your take on it. Yeah, I mean I think that the saying is like you can say a picture is worth a thousand words and then maybe a video is worth a thousand pictures.

And I think that um a live stream is like the most effective way to communicate with an audience at scale. And um it allows for people to repurpose the clips afterwards and and it takes very um little effort to to go live to thousands of people and maybe tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands.

So I I think live streaming is is definitely the future of how you connect with an audience at scale and it's probably the future of shopping as well. I don't think it's necessarily that different. I mean you look at QVC and um that's obviously a long time ago.

you look at HQ trivia even back in the day and and now you look at Tik Tok shop and even Amazon's integrated a lot of live live shopping and um nobody cares more about something than what's happening right now and that's what live stream is all about.

So so very very very bullish on on live streaming not only for actually the the point of sale but also what happens after the sale.

If you if you're running a e-commerce brand I'm sure you'd want to have a weekly seminar where you actually go over with your customer base and say hey do you guys like the product you just purchased? Why don't you drop the comments right here? Maybe we can do a demo live and show everybody how to use the product.

Um, so I think live streaming has a lot of of good use cases, not just for the point of sale, but even after to engage a customer base. Is there a cohort on [ __ ] that you think will be particularly resistant to the relentless march of AI?

There's a lot of people worried about, oh, Chacht, the next version is going to put my business out of business. What do you see as being like, yeah, th this this person on WOP's going to be here for two decades or more?

Well, I think I think the people on [ __ ] are really special because what happens is as the trends evolve on social media, the people don't just stop doing what they're doing. They don't just fall off the face of the earth. And I think that they adapt really well.

And I think a lot of people on [ __ ] start one business and then second business and third business and then all the way still 10 businesses later, they're finding their niche in the market. And just because a niche change doesn't mean they're going to stop um trying to provide value for people on the internet.

So I I look at AI is actually a pretty awesome driver of our business.

and and it it makes it um unless we're we're going to hypothesize that everybody just stops living and and doing anything with AI, which I think is certainly maybe some people's perspective, but people are still going to exist and they're still going to be here and it's not like they're going anywhere.

So when that happens, it's like I need to figure out how to make money for myself and maybe how to have a purpose and and I think that [ __ ] is is all about that.

So I actually would say [ __ ] as an entire platform is very uh it lends itself very well to AI or maybe AI lends itself well to [ __ ] and I look at we have a lot of AI products on the site and people talking about AI doing AI courses AI software AI um AI in their live stream we have some video features that you can send people avatar messages and creating ads with AI.

So I look at AI as a huge plus for almost every single person on W. That's awesome. Makes sense. Uh last question. How do you think about hiring?

I'm sure you've got maybe your core team and then basically an army of like a 100,000 people that are sort of your your users that also want to support [ __ ] because if they can make [ __ ] better and bigger, it's good for their individual businesses. But uh yeah, what is what does your team look like?

Yeah, our team is actually mostly like users of our platform and and I mean people some of our earliest users, we were our first users and some of our earliest team was our first users and I think that the best place to recruit from companies broadly is actually your user base. They know the product well.

Um they're building for themselves and and I think that we have a saying it's built. You're your own customer and um we don't use anything else other than [ __ ] We don't use Slack. We don't use the score. We everything's on [ __ ] And I think that's the best way to hire us.

We have a great community of hundreds of thousands of users that they use the product every single day. And I mean they're giving us the best feedback and oftent times they're programming for us and and building little features in the site and um doing our marketing as well.

So way we hire is is people that are in our space on our product um and that really are passionate about our mission.

Uh I can uh random thought I can imagine you know a a boomer VC talking to you saying you know what I really think what you're doing is the future of work and you're like bro this is the present of work we're living we're living it.

Uh but it but it's funny how these sort of platforms emerge where I look at [ __ ] and I hear you talk about it and it's like yeah I believe this is the future of work in many ways.

It's people being entrepreneurial like finding you know new ways to uh you know like you said create value on the internet and uh it's just very cool to see. So I love it. This is such an awesome congratulations on the progress. Really enjoyed that. Uh hopefully we don't create too much hype for you.

You know I think another another year but but your days are numbered, dude. You're you got maybe another you got you got basically another six months uh you know relatively lowkey and then people are going to be like wait these kids are doing like you know hundreds of millions of revenue.

Uh but uh it's great to have you on. We'd love to have you on again. Thanks for coming on. This was fantastic. Cool. Awesome guys. Have a great day. Bye. Bye. Thank you. Bye. See you. That's great. Uh yeah, what a fascinating company. I completely discuss that's the final boss of of Gen Z entrepreneurs.

Uh I would uh I would love the Charger. Uh oh yeah, sure. We share one Charger. Hey, you don't become the most profitable podcast while spending money on duplicate technology. Uh, but we got