David Senra on Ken Griffin: scuba divers, stolen code, and what makes a killer entrepreneur

in the building he actually has a he he told us uh just before joining he's got a good horror story so why we start there okay tell us the horror story uh what's up guys good to see you what's up good to see you can did you get some more book did you get some more books since last time or is just a different angle no I'm using a different camera looks good so I absolutely love uh the horror story I was talking to uh one of the most success full tech company CEOs a few months ago and he was telling me how stupid he thought it was that his wife picked up a horse uh Habit and there's a I guess there's like a a famous like horse trading um training facility in Wellington Florida which is like the middle of nowhere kind of by like West Palm and he goes this I thought it was the biggest waste of time and he shows up at this event and like Michael Bloomberg's there and like the guy from Goldman Sachs is there and like all these essentially like fabulous wealthy and successful like oh maybe this isn't a waste giant waste of time if the horse even if the horse costs a million dollars you get one deal done at that equestrian event and it pays for itself so I uh I I read two books uh last week one was terrible which I told you about and then one was good but not episode worthy so I had to republish an old episode and I republished an old episode about this guy named Daniel Ludwig who was the richest man in the world in 1980s and no one knew his name there's no pictures of him anywhere wow and he made his money the first way he made his first Fortune was hauling oil and then he had huge cargo ships and he was getting smoked for contracts for like the big Middle East uh oil providers because the Onasis and all the the other Greek shipping magnets would build the most the biggest yachts in the world and then they would invite the people they want to sell onto the yacht and they got all of the contracts so Daniel's like okay I'm going to do the exact same thing he didn't even he just worked all the time so he didn't even go on the yacht he let them use it and he said later on that he made more money from that ship than all of his super tankers combined wow insane yeah it's amazing um Jordy what what should we talk about the Ken Griffin episode that's coming up are we leaking that no no I I just finished it this morning fantastic I haven't eaten anything and I'm on like six uh 600 I had three commenters so far today so it's like just under like I'm shaking right now lot of caffine likea to match your energy but I got it out so what happened inspiration tell us about why you did the episode obviously everyone knows King Griffin founder of Citadel but uh what inspired you because I study psychos for a living and I love them and they're the most interesting Fascinating People to me and so you guys actually made a video on this tweet that got like a million and 1.

5 million views right it's John Arnold talking about hey what did Ken Griffin do when Enron blew up and he talks about just like you know a lot of people like oh yeah I know Enron was making money uh all like all these this Talent is going to like you know essentially go to the wind uh you know some people will recruit maybe they'll build like a good Commodities business and uh he tells a story where the day it blows up and keep in mind in the story Ken Griffin's like 33 he's like really really young and he chart immediately Charters a Gulf Stream jet goes to Houston and interviews every single person that was important in the Enron trading business and then he winds up hiring all the best talent and in the in the talk that I use for the basis of the episode cuz biography on Ken he goes and since then we've made about $30 billion trading Commodities so the main reason I I I wanted to to profile him is because um I get to meet a lot of really interesting people because of the podcast and I always ask the same questions it's like who's the smartest person you know who has the best business you know and if they're in finance even if they don't know each other they they I kept hearing Ken Griffin Ken Griffin Ken Griffin and they would say two things about him they say he's a winner and he's a killer and you just find all these stories you know they're not in a book but they're just like spread across the internet and it might be in other books of just him taking something you know he just took it to the next level and then John Arnold um the one thing where I knew as soon as I read that line I was like oh I'm going to do an episode immediately is John's like listen I'm not going to take a job but I respect Ken so yeah I'll talk to him I'm heading to Aspen for an event tell him he can call me when I get back to Houston next week and then Ken's assistant calls back like two minutes later and like hey K would you talk to Ken if he flies to ask tomorrow and he's like yeah I'll do that so it's just like there's just reoccurring theme through all these biographies of History great entrepreneurs is like how bad do you want it and I think reading these stories like really stretch as like possible did Ken have a jet at that point because you got to Discount the like quick flight a little bit already had PJ and it was just more flew Southwest actually standby it was if he didn't own the jet he was definitely chartering the jet so I don't know if he owned it but yeah he was not uh still meaning did you find the story of Ken Griffin in college getting the stock tips from State Street do you did you cover that no no the one thing I heard was that he convinced Harvard to let him install um like a satellite dish so he could get real up to the minute uh data he was the only person at Harvard that had this this data flow so that so so that was true for the for like the publicly traded companies that he needed stock prices for but he also had this interest so he's trading convertible debt at the time and and convertible debt it doesn't just have a ticker that you can just look up online or call someone uh you actually have to go to a trading desk and talk to a sales and trading guy to get like hey what's the market trading that particular Bond at because it's not incredibly liquid and so what he would do is he would take the the red line from Harvard in Cambridge down to Boston go into State Street which was one of the largest it still is like huge Global asset manager um you would bring flowers for the ladies at the front desk and sweet talk them and kind of just be like oh like so good to see you Susan like you're the best like and then he would walk through and then just walk the the the desk I don't know if this is apocryphal they just kind of told this story at Citadel yeah um but uh but they would he would he would just walk and then he would just like tap a guy on the shoulder and be like hey like what what's the spread on the convertible debt on Microsoft today or something like that and then he would get the quote go back run his pricing model and then decide whether or not he should actually put in order like f everything he does everything he does is like that that's why it was just so fascinating cuz like he just takes this idea of like buttering up you know The Gatekeepers inside of a business like that David gein's biography he talks about he had a huge Advantage doing that Michael Ovitz I just did two episodes of Michael Ovitz same situation like they're always able to obain information that other people can't because there's somebody in the way and they just figure out how to get around that person and it's usually through like kind acts of kindness dude did you get into the story of the uh the the IP theft that happened in 2011 no so no so Mo basically there's no biography of can right um and so I watched every single interview I could find with him but the problem is because it's him most of the interviews they want his it's like they're all timely I was looking for like Timeless sure and so it's like they're like hey what do you think about this political candidate or what do you think about the market now and so the only thing the best thing I found was this talk at Yale sure the guy interviewing him kind of horrible but I transcribed that talk at Yale and then went through the transcription just like you do the books and then there's another thing it's this book right here that uh I found this because Josh Wolf talked about I think Ken was an investor in the first uh fund through Josh and that that Ken recommends this book and I think he makes people or he strongly suggests people at uh at Citadel read it and so I read that to get context because I think if you listen to if people tell you hey this book is really important to me you know there's like five books you have to read it gives you an insight into their personality right and that that book is L the subtitle is are you playing to play or are you playing to win and think about the the the tweet from John Arnold like was he playing to play or is he playing to win he was playing to win um and so I think there's a lot of analogies in the Yale talk that he gives where he gives a brief overview his career and then he gives a bunch of like principles for you to apply to your career which I thought was more of like a Founders episode can you talk about what what it means for Ken to be a killer like really getting into like your definition of that because you described him as like a winner and a killer but I think killer can have plenty of different definitions like you can think of a killer as like somebody that just like figures out how to win and is aggressive but then I I still think of someone like Eric glyman as like a killer but he's also extremely kind and so it's possible to be like kind and a killer how how do you describe Ken Griffin I I think every single person that I've profiled on Founders is a killer and I mean it this is not a perjorative I I mean this is like they take what they're doing very seriously the greatest uh I this idea really stuck in my mind because there's this biography of Bernard orol it's called like the taste of luxury it's like really hard to find I think it's like $33,000 online and because there very few biographies of them in English right and this one ends when Bernar is like 40 and at the end of the book he calls his shot you guys were just mentioning it earlier I heard you on the show it's like well if you want to like do a competitive Rolex or some kind of luxury brand like you had to start 100 years ago and Bernard had that Insight you know 40 years ago 35 years ago and he just like oh these things very valuable I think they're going to get more valuable in time and I have no competition because you have to start them you know two centuries ago or two generations ago and but there's a line in that biography I never forgot where they're describing him and they say only Killers survive um so what I mean by Killers like uh we I was actually out to dinner in Miami on Saturday Sun Saturday night the night before I was going to record this episode and I mentioned somebody came over from the table that we know and he was asking me he's like oh like what's the next episode you're working on and he works for another fund hedge fund and the guy that owns that fund is really close to to Ken and so when I brought up them doing Ken he's like oh I have so many [ __ ] Ken stories and one thing that he told me that this is an example of like a killer away from like your competitors right is that there's like a there was like a a a tiny business inside a citadel that had something to do with like the new technology they were developing and he essentially Ken sat and talked to the guy for like a few hours about like tiny details like where where are the servers like what are we doing with them like he was just completely obsessed he has no other Hobbies than just building this massive Empire um and then one thing that I think is directly related to your question Jordy is like in the the talk he's just like you you don't want to win like you want a landslide you want to beat your competitors so bad that they do not survive because if you let them survive they will come back and you don't want them to come back again and when I got to that part of the transcript I'm like this isn't has this is not just how Ken thinks there's a great line in this book called invent and wander which is the collected writings of Jeff Bezos so somebody Walter is collected all of Jeff bezos's shho letters and then transcribed and edited all of Jeff's important speeches and Jeff has a great line in there he's like do you really want to uh prepare for a future where you might have to fight somebody as good as you and he goes I don't and so same thing it's like I don't want to win two to one there's a line in hard ball it's like you need to [ __ ] winning two to W you need to win 9 to2 you need to Stomp Them um I just had dinner with uh I I could say this because it's proba like uh Mark Lori and he was the one that founded diapers.

com and you know and then he went on to sell Jet and all this other stuff but I was lighting him up with questions I like I want to know what it was like competing against Jeff Bezos at that time and he was just like you can't there is no comp he was going to steamr you I had no choice that's amazing uh I mean we we like the the mindset uh with Ken Griffin just takes me back to 2012 this this Trader on the on the uh on the Quant team stole code for they call them Alphas basically code that no matter who runs it they're going to generate return uh stole a bunch of stuff on like a hard drive Citadel finds out realizes that they're stealing the IP the code uh the guy freaks out he dumps the hard drive into the into the river uh in Chicago and K Griffin and the Citadel team get scuba divers to go into the river and find the hard drive just to send it to the FBI to get this guy busted and I was like yeah like he's not gonna let you just take his his Alpha he's just not going we're flying in scuba divers yeah flying In Scuba the Caribbean basically he talk he talks about that in the talk I didn't include in the podcast but he's like listen if if somebody's going to leave because you know you work at Citadel and then you want to work you want to be a doctor I'm going to write you uh you know a letter of recommendation I'm going to support you every way you leave for competitor and that just brings up different very different feelings within within me and so that's what I mean he's just like he's completely bought in I think the important Point here though is like go ahead on that note and maybe you can just wrap this into story you're about to tell but how does he think about investing in other funds right because in many ways funds may start with a singular strategy but in a long enough time Horizon the manager says well okay I'm going to run an Empire now I'm going to do the Ken Griffin Playbook we're going to have a bunch of different verticals he's invested in some Venture funds he he's invested okay so um I think maybe it was on your show I forgot who told me oh no no no I know who who told me um like you'll see this over and over again when people start to to understand how valuable their industry is they essentially get in all the good deals so like think about uh you know Nvidia is in every single AI anything right now uh I just did an episode on Jerry Jones and I talked to a bunch of people that live in Texas bunch of people there around him like yeah yeah the Cowboys is one thing his early oil and gas stff he's like you don't understand what he's been doing the investment he's been doing since then he's in every single thing uh I don't know I didn't track like how I just hear over and over again that he's got money everywhere and I again these are private companies so you never know but what I was told and you kind of see this because like if you come to Miami he's like buying everything like every like not just like literally everything he's building I think was going to be the most expensive house in history in Palm Beach and so what I was told is forget the Enterprise value of the companies which is you know who knows 80 billion whatever the number is right he's like he the guy's been pulling out billions and billions and billions in cash he just doesn't know what to do with it so yeah I'm sure he's invested in everything I heard stories about Bloomberg I went up um talking to somebody that knows a lot about his family office and you know I was asking questions around this trying to get a sense of how large his fortune is and he was like well I can give you a little hints like look how much we spent X on charity we have this many people in the [ __ ] family office and you kind of like piece this together it's oh well what are you going to do if you're making five seven 10 billion in cash year after year after year like eventually fight for Mercedes amg1 allocation of course uh entire I mean it is crazy how like how diverse The Citadel team has become because they have this highfrequency trading arm I mean they started with convertible debt they kind of like the story of Citadel is like he got so good at trading convertible debt that he just straight up maxed out the market size like he was Tam constrained on that and then went into high frequency trading and then got the global equities team up and running and the equities team when I when I was there they were doing like 2,000 CEO interviews a year or something just like interviewing every single person that runs a public company getting the temperature figuring out do we like this manager do we like this leader should we invest and then on the other side you have the The High Frequency guys who are like I haven't talked to a human being in months and it doesn't matter and they're both printing they're both absolutely printing yeah what I love too about like like um you know him maxing out markets earlier in his career that's something he he takes Q&A from the Yale students at the end like how do you decide like what business to go in and he's like you have to think about total adjustable Market we have to be in deep liquid markets because we're going to do the best research on the planet and we need to be compensated for for This research another thing that I absolutely love that I think is really important too is he talks about uh how much of an influence that mentorship and apprenticeship is going to have on your career as a young person and as you continue to go and this is something I see over and over again there's this book on my desk like this impossible to find uh it's called you actually like this it's autopsy of a merger and it's this deal that J pritzker did one of his most INF Infamous deals and what I thought thought was interesting is like I remember reading Sam zel's autobiography and then getting to speak to Sam and Sam Jay priser was like Sam's older brother and mentor and so he he said Sam said that Jay had the greatest Financial mind of anybody that he ever met and so I was like okay well if Sam is studying this guy I need to study this guy but want to go back to the point I was about to make is like like Mo you know think about every single person covered on Founders it's like they they were so good at their job that somebody wrote a book about them this is like the smallest percentage of the people that have ever lived but there's so many like if you take all these lessons and abstractions you can apply them even to like business is far a field this is actually advice that that Ken gives where he's like as an entrepreneur you need to be looking for edges so obviously you study inside your company you study your competitors but then you study businesses that are far a field so he talks about he had uh he had he built this thing called a risk wall in Citadel it's 30t by 10t it's a giant screen and he says before they were they were getting like a b B+ on uh how well they were managing risk and you know Ken's not going to be satisfied with B anything and so he actually is in the office of Saudi ramco in Saudi Arabia and he sees that they have this giant [ __ ] board that's like 30 feet long 10 feet wide and has all the important metrics like where the ships are how much they're producing everything else he's like oh I'm going to take that idea and I'm G to apply it not to ships and oil but to getting getting all of the data I need so we can start uh managing our risk better and he says that one idea had him go from you know be whatever the case is to like one of the best like Risk departments uh in the world so the reason I think about him is because uh I don't know if you guys told Truman to do this but I have got been getting some threatening emails and text messages um I'll tell the audience because they might not know uh I'm getting like calls from Jordy at like 5:30 in the morning California time just letting me know he's on his way to the to the studio I'm getting text messages from John f545 I get a text today and it's all I see is the back of John Jordan and I think the rest of the tbbn crew and they're go they're doing uh they're doing curls till failure and then this is the the caption they're like TPB coming for your neck it was a good time this morning I mean that's every morning yeah I mean podcasting never sleeps podcasting but you guys are taking it you know to a completely different level no our our killer mindset is it's not enough for us to be the biggest other people need to quit need to quit uh we like to say never podcast weekly always podcast strongly I love that line and that's why we train every morning uh talk about like just frame works for Focus you you covered a little bit of this but is there any has Ken put anything out there around like how he's evaluating like you know they're running all these business lines and then he's got somebody that comes to him with an opportunity you know internally he's evaluating it based on the market potential but is there anything like you know he didn't roll out every business line in the same two years it was sort of staged right okay you just accidentally hit on like something that's very important I put in the episode description is like one of the other reasons in in addition to like all these crazy stories uh let me let me back up don't let me forget where I'm at but uh the first time I came across Ken because I don't know any like I just I don't pay attention to finance right uh now I do because I watch t tpv and but I'm reading you don't need a fantastic liquidity provider like uh C Securities on the market um you got to get your size up this is one of my favorite books okay uh I think it's episode 222 of Founders I think I maybe did it episode like in the 80s like you know six years ago whatever it's Ed thorp's biography of man ofal markets and Ed Thorp is a fascinating character legit genius and he was the first person the person that made the first quantitative hedg fund ever uh he built the world's first wearable computer with Claud Shannon um he was the first LP and Citadel so the way the first way I came across Ken Griffin the way I was exposed to him was at the end of the EP uh the book Ed Ed thorp's like he closed down his his hedge fund right he already made more money he could ever possibly uh spend it's called pron new partners and what happened is Ken Griffin was 19 years old comes to Ed thorp's house and then Ken Griffin's uh Mentor is with him and essentially he's like I always wondered how far edor was like how far could I go with the strategy like I wonder how far I could have gone I wasn't the right person to pursue it but I wonder if somebody did and he's like well Prodigy came over and I gave him all my files and this wasn't publicly available information like you couldn't get it anywhere to your the point you were making earlier John um and then he's like I wind up being the first LP and then you f forward and look like you know I think the book ends he K NW it's like six billion and they have like 15 billion of SSR management or something and now it's like you know multiples of that um but I think like one of the uh like I guess the way I think about this is just like I obsess with people that do things for a long time and so even Ken says Ken founded Citadel 35 years ago he's founded Citadel Securities 23 years ago if I'm not mistaken right and he's like we made more money in the last four years like we are making more money today than we ever have in the past and he talked about how uh this maybe give you Insight in how he's able to scale up all these different businesses one they take a long time to do but also he said he had last year he had over 100,000 people apply to work for him wow and so you just have a huge labor like you have all the town in the world now you have all these resources and you just build it slowly like slow over time over many many decades yeah Citadel Securities I originally I think you Ken was thinking about doing an investment bank and then eventually spun that out and and sold that arm of the business and now it's morphed into a to a market maker and it's a it's a very the business itself has been through PIV it's much like the core hedge fund uh I do have a question about the core hedge fund um there's always the question of as you scale up a fund size and outside outside LPS you put up some amazing numbers 20% returns everybody wants in is that sustainable when you take it an order magnitude bigger did you get any insight into how Ken Griffin thinks about scale and outside investors because at the end of the day you know it's his fund he wants to grow it but sometimes having a bigger fund is advantageous no I didn't get like there was a couple things where I was kind of getting frustrated with the interviewer because it's like Ken says um he made he's the most successful hedge fun of all time which one I asked a friend of mine who knows about this like I thought Renaissance like why like what's and he's like yeah but most of that was like their own money like they CL The Medallion fund they closed off to outside investors a long time ago J Street same thing yeah and then the other thing Ken said that they like please ask I heard you earlier when you guys were going over the Wall Street Journal article on open AI you're like follow up godamn it why don't you follow up it drives me [ __ ] it drives me crazy like U I'm gonna have to do an interview show now just so I can get these questions out of but he mentions this that like he made more money than anybody else but there's also years where he says I lost over a hundred billion dollar I was there when I came in they during my like training seminar they uh the guy like oh yeah we had a really rough go during the financial crisis during the housing crisis our fund lost 50% of its value and then he was like and I went outside the next year and I was talking to my neighbor and he was like oh how's it going any better than than next year or than last year when you lost 50% he's like actually we're having a great year we're up 50% and and the and the next door neighbor was like oh that's great you're back to where you were and the guy was like no that's not how it works like you have to go up 100% And he was just like kind of exposing like basic math that's basic math literacy and like the general population I thought it was an interesting like anecdote so so there is an interesting I think principle to take away from that is cuz like you know likely most of us three and people listening are not going to have you know hundred billion doll loss in a year um unless Masa is listening um just but everyone hope to have the opportunity to lose a 100 billion at some point this goes back to again just being really gifted at a young age because he says that one thing that helped him very well is going to the proverb scene of accidents so when other funds or other up well there was yeah but Enron happened in 2001 there was a story in 98 so keep in mind at 98 Ken is 30 okay 2008 when when you're describing when he loses half of his Equity almost goes out of business which he talks about in the the uh I talk about in the episode he talks about the talk of the Y as well he was 40 but he says what saved him from going out of business in 2008 is when he was in 98 he when long-term Capital Management broke up he went and he's like how that he's like you guys lost 90% of your Equity before like once they crossed the 90% threshold then they lost control of the business like how the hell did you not lose control before then he's like most like it shouldn't have happened yeah he said and then this another thing where the the the the interviewer didn't follow up he's like and he's like so what I learned from that was pivotal for me not to lose control of Citadel and not to go to business and it's like okay well the follow question is like what did you learn but he never he just talks about going to the scenes of the crime he didn't specifically say hey this is I learned XY or z uh do you think that Ken has another 40ish years in him uh in the same way that the the Warren and the and the Charlies yeah good question or is he building his is he building the biggest house the most expensive house ever and he's just like you know gonna post up there and and write it out one of the things again like I I picked the people I cover very carefully cuz cuz like I want to be inspired by them and one of the things that I really loved at the beginning of the research um was I would watch some interviews and for hours and literally only just like pull out one line and was that he says that he's been obsessed with the stock market since the third grade for reasons I don't entirely comprehend that's the line he doesn't even understand he's like this there's a great line that Jeff Bezos says that I believe in where it's like we don't choose our passions our passions choose us and Ken clearly is like completely obsessed with this so where was even saying he like I don't know if I was interested in entrepreneurship I was just interested in solving problems I am addicted to solving problems and guess what entrepreneurship investing like he says the public markets like that's the biggest you know the biggest game in the world with the the the the biggest hardest problems to solve so that's what I'm addicted to usually people like that I don't think they ever stop yeah yeah makes sense did you get a chance to read good to Great Jim I read it a long time ago yeah it's the book that it was like it's on your desk when you join the firm like he requires everyone to read it I think he's like grown the library now but it's an interesting framework I I thought you would have a good take on on this takeaway from the book uh which I think Ken probably Embrace he says uh the culture of discipline when you com can you combine a culture of discipline with an ethic of Entrepreneurship you get the magical Alchemy of great results and it's focused on technological accelerators good to Great companies think differently about the the role of technology and I wanted to get your your feedback on that so I'm going to answer that question one second there's other three other books that he says he says good to Great hard ball which is on my desk which I read and then another one what was the I can't remember the other book it like I went to buy it I think it was like published in like the 1960s the problem with these books is you go and read them like even Hardball hard there's nothing wrong with Hardball but I felt I had better examples of the principles based on like the reading I've done because a lot of the principles like this so great and then you look up and the company's gone like and same and same thing in good to great so um yeah I think it's like less tying them to specific companies uh and just saying hey does that like does that idea make sense in like what in your business and what you're doing even if you only use idea temporarily but the the the I think one of the main themes if you're studying like think about it's like I've been studying history of Entrepreneurship uh if you focus essentially focus on like the market economy maybe like 200 last 200 250 years mostly taking place in America time um there is one principle that reoccurs over and over again and I it popped in my mind when I read Andrew Carnegie's autobiography like years ago and that uh they all have in common that they invest in technology the savings compound and it could be gives you an advantage over slower moving competitors and it could be the difference between a profit and a loss and if you go back and look at Rockefeller Carnegie uh Ken Griffin Sam Walton uh all these people like their their Edge was in many cas like they invested in better technology at a faster rate than their competitors like say you know no one thinks of Walmart as a [ __ ] tech company right but if you go and read there's this great hard to find book that I did an episode on it's called Sam Walton richest man in America published the year or two before Sam wrote his own autobiography and there's a story in the book where in like the 1970s Sam is in his 60s and these guys come to him and I think it's 1979 and they're like hey we need to invest $500 million in this new computer system for inventory computer 1979 and at first Sam said no he thought computers were overhead and slowly over time his top guys convinced him like no this is an advantage and then they spent so much more on computerized Logistics and inventory management everything else they just were had an unfair advantage that compounded decade after decade after decade I love it last question two small questions Ken owns 80% of Citadel LLC who owns the other 20% is I don't know but I I talked to the guy I to one of the guys that that owns part of Citadel Securities I can't say who but that business is a monster from what I hear that's huge uh what is it about great investors that make them maybe not so great at picking spouses is it just the [Laughter] intensity uh no it's not funny it's said he's he's been married twice divorced twice uh I'm sure he's very intense dude he's clearly focused on you know uh winning at all cost matrimony so brutal frequ high frequency high frequency Trader high frequency matrimony it has no it's not just investors it's entrepreneurs I remember um I think the best episode I've ever done is on actually on James Cameron which is hilarious and I start that episode where I'm reading from this like in-depth GQ profile of him and I don't say anything but if you read between the lines you're like he moved to New Zealand with his fifth wife it's just like what kind of personality type do you think that person is like easy to deal with they're flexible they get along easily with other people um I think Mo in in many cases and I think uh I'm definitely at risk for this I don't know well I mean you guys are grinding hard as hard as hell right now I I am curious like your personality types I think you you're a little bit more guarded like you you would you would avoid this um they just like you just are so addicted to what you're working on that you know you destroy everything around you and this is why I say like man of all markets is my favorite book or one of my favorite books I think the subtitle of that episode is like uh my personal blueprint is because Ed Thorp is one of the few people you know I've covered almost 400 of hisory G entrepreneurs and it's just like in many cases they're [ __ ] cautionary tales they destroy their health their their marriages their you know in many cases bad parents uh they they burn everything to the ground because they're so obsessed and dedicated with what they're working on and I think that personality type is like you know a lot of that is internal um and so I always look for positive examples him being W so price is is another one where it's just like I don't I want to learn from what they did where Ed Thorp took care of himself if you just look you can Google him and I've showed pictures of him he's 93 and I'm like how old do you think this guy is and they're like he's 60 he worked out he started picking up a fit a physical fitness habit like 70 years ago when no one was working out cuz he's thought again he's brilliant he's like oh I think of every hour I spent on Fitness as one less day I'll spend in the hospital at the end of my life uh he made more money he could never spend but then once he passed that threshold he stopped trading more time for more money so he like all this crazy deals guaranteed money to come to him he's like no I'm not interested uh his kids are in the book they talk about how great a father he was that he was present his his wife had just died but they were happily married you know for 50 years I mean the guy just nailed it he was like super smart had fun great dad great uh father you know lived a life that his book I say I say in the Ken Griffin episode like his book reads like a thriller um but yeah I think that's like there's a ton I mean I would say most of the great entrepreneurs you're not going to see a large overlap unfortunately between like and are gonna go read that book because uh my wife who's watching live with the kids just texted me yikes yikes I love you Sarah and uh we'll we'll the I just I just had yeah we we have we have another guest we got to get you out of here I just had I just I just had this example last week because in the mo in the Ovitz episode he talks about if I could do things over again I I should have worked 10% less and I wouldn't have changed my professional success at all could have been 20% less so I was bitching about going on vacation last week because I don't want to travel and I want to like just work on the podcast and my wife's like overit say you should work 10% less so like this against me [Laughter] well thanks for stopping by this is fantastic as always great love guys D we'll talk to you soon talk soon bye bye great we are over to get into that episode yeah me too get uh let's get some Mir in here yeah in the temple of Technology welcome to the stream smeir are you here hey great to see you sorry we're running a little late and look at