OpenAI's Aidan McLaughlin on model naming chaos, post-training design, and the discontinuity effect

fund raise fundraise or just the studio gibl moment I mean it was a massive moment for like crossing the chasm again so last week John yeah you're over it yeah yeah it's like a million years ago here you know time moves differently inside the lab right yeah um yeah we're excited uh the team morale is like really really good and it's like awesome to see like my colleagues have worked like really hard to make like these tools more liberal to make them more fun um kind of like look out into the world and like see the fruits of their labor right that yeah that's awesome guys great so I guess talk about like evaluating like what it what like how do you guys evaluate internally like a successful launch because the reason that I knew it was successful is I had a few posts that were sort of breaking teapot containment and I would have a lot of people quoting it saying like all right guys Jig Is up tell me what app you're using for this like people just like there's still people out there that like they don't know the name open AI but they know that this filter exists and they want it and that's a very very good sign I do wonder if there was like this in moment where people were like wow Snapchat's gotten really good you like what's going on here you know I haven't used this app for a while yeah spel has been cooking yeah this must be Tik Tok yeah I mean I got a couple cold DMS from people saying like hey I I I ran out of images can you make one for me clearly you're making a lot of these was like Good Samaritan limits yeah exactly exactly uh but I mean uh how did you process the moment did you did you predict this and and what what was the shape of your expectation versus what wound up happening yeah so I I did not predict this to be candid um you know like we had the tool internally um you know like I played around with him like a this is cool didn't quite like you know feel in the way that I think that like I felt it immediately after launch right yeah um I do think our leadership um predicted this pretty well I think like Sam and others had like you know well calibrated intuitions for this yeah um and I think at this point like you know they've done a lot of viral stuff right like you know I think that you know at some point like that you start to update all the way down um but yeah like I think go ahead yeah yeah on the tech side like it does seem like there's a new algorithm involved uh and and we don't need to dive into that but I want to know like there is a different path where we're seeing more incremental updates I imagine and we're seeing like the text is getting slightly better every week but there's something almost more viral about being discontinuous and all of a sudden just hitting the internet over the head with like text is good now right um and and is that just a function of your development in like the product cycle or is that is there some deliberate strategy there yeah I think um you know I can't speak for to too much in terms of like you know deliberate strategy but uh it is interesting where like you know to your point like for these text models we update them pretty often right every few months or so like you know they're getting better like people are always kind of you know seeing these steady improvements um but the funny thing was like the you know when deeps came out it was kind of this like really interesting moment where a lot of people hadn't tried or like you know our most recent models a lot of people hadn't tried our most powerful models and they saw that discontinuity right they're like I've been using like you know 40 from like you know earlier this year use this new reasoning model like holy [ __ ] this is amazing right and I do think that like uh even things that are continuous to us right like you know as people that use these tools often still are sometimes weirdly discontinuous to like Outsiders right yeah or to people that aren as new to the product um but like you know 40 image gen is like a great example of that right like we went from like Dolly to this and it was like this massive jump and I think that like that jump does add to the Vitality as you said totally that makes sense uh how do you guys you know I feel like a long you know even people that use and love uh opening eyes products daily you know sort of continue to give the feedback on like naming it's confusing blah blah blah like has that not been a focus because on a on a long enough time Horizon you just sort of ask it you know to do things and it just sort of selects like the correct underlying model and it's just routed perfectly and and so it's just like not uh cuz like if you were like you know listening to customers you'd be like you know providing more more basically like more information for the average user in the product to be like well you should really use this for that or or maybe try it again with this other thing so um is it just like you know we're accelerating so quickly that like none of this is even going to matter you're not even going to know the names yeah at this point like open I is so bad at naming that I you know I think we've like dug our own grave here right um like internally things are even worse right where like like the hell does this mean like Sam tweeted something this morning where it's like you know run redo like this time for real yeah yeah it's restart 0331 final final 2 restart for real I mean I was I was laughing at like is it 4D chest but at the same time like you could imagine that you gave every model like a like strawberry ice cream and like you give them cute names and then it makes even less sense like at least I know like 03 is a higher number than 01 so like it's probably better like no you're right like sometimes we don't number things like in order is it's like like it's like blueberry and upgrade to Strawberry like I have no idea right yeah yeah yeah I think it could be worse but yeah um I do think that you know Sam like tweeted this a month ago but we we do plan to start unifying like you know our model selection right um so I think like you know soon we will have like a much simpler easier to address thing and even for me like you know I'm like the one like testing these models all day designing them and such um still it's like unclear talk little bit about your day-to-day like what do you actually do yeah I I work on model design here uh so I like you know work on Behavior like the the way the models Act the way you know like people uh like the experience behind uh use um but I also just work on General capabilities so making the model smarter and you know many domains not just like kind of narrow areas talk about making uh the model and I I don't know if you touched this but you posted I think it was a couple days ago you said nowadays I don't spend money without first deep researching everything I buy hand so toothpaste lunch house plants is just better now sure waiting five minutes for p towel recommendations is weird but in retrospect this say makes you and you specifically called out Amazon an Amazon Choice here because I've wanted for a very long time to just have an Amazon where every I only products that appear are companies that have existed for like a hundred years or more because like I don't want like the drop shipper who's like yeah I found the way to make this like 10% cheaper and we can spend you know that extra margin back on ads and suddenly it's a business and so I can totally imagine a world in the future where I just go to you know chat GPT and say that I want to buy buy paper towels and then you guys are routing that basically based on my what you know about me as a consumer which I will pay 10% more to get 50% better quality operator buy me paper towels from a company that's been in business for 200 years real American paper towel like you know Ben Franklin's paper towel but that's been but but that's been you know you know people that are you know the critique has been like okay you're using this to like it's not being used for commercial search it's just being used to like generate answers to questions but then yeah obviously and and I'm saying this you're not saying this but it's obviously a threat to Google and to Amazon and other marketplaces when I'm going there and I'm saying this is what I want to buy like help me buy the best version and it can be more aligned with my interest than an ads based business model I'm like you know kind of an extreme libertarian when it comes to like uh sales and such right um I do think there's going to be this like really really cool world that we move into the next like year or two here where as our tools for selecting like products like become like super super smart right like way smarter than me like going to be so much better than I or any other human I've ever met will be at like knowing exactly what I want exactly like what other people love um it's just going to like increase competition right it's going to increase like selectivity right like you know truly great companies who build like actual products that people love are going to like float to the surface way easier um and then like kind of all the like [ __ ] like the Drop Shipping like random guy doing a you know thing out of his basement that got the Amazon Choice label like that's just all going to like fall away like dead leaves falling off a tree I'm excited for that cuz it's just going to make the market better right can you talk about other maybe underrated uses of open AI models obviously everyone knows you can gify your dog everyone knows that you can ask it to explain like AP Bio questions but uh that use case is pretty interesting what else where else are you seeing uh usefulness in the models yeah one thing I'm like on a kick with this recently um that I'm like really really trying to get better at is just remembering to use these tools uh for learning right um I think that like you know there are a lot of things like okay I do this every day I wanted to do I want to do it better like you know here's a way for me to use deep research Etc but I think the opposite is kind of interesting too it's like when I don't use these tools or where like I did not have something previously in my life that would have demanded use um and I think like an example of this is like now that I have you know something that like can give me a Mackenzie style report in like you know minutes right like I should be using this all the hell like like every single day right like so before I go to bed like I like generate like a deep research I like you know remind myself like I got to read the Deep research tonight like I gotta like you know it's just like brushing your teeth or something right y um remembering to use these systems is like such an important thing to me yeah yeah if you're very intentional about using them they can make you smarter if you're unintentional about them and you're just like last second like I got to send this email like you know just do it for me like maybe that's you know making you I mean silly stuff I I was I was like yes I actually I would like a 50 page report from a Mackenzie analyst on the on the Metal Gear Solid fandom or like the history of Sword Art on online like stuff that I would normally like have to puzzle together from like Wiki and YouTube videos I'm like I just want it all in one place to understand this stuff and it's like these stupid things that you would never think to you know actually get a full report on available fingertips it's amazing as a kid I remember like all those like you know like kind of fanfiction Wiki or whatever like dive through and they like yeah terrible right like ads everywhere like you know read like I'm so excited just like remember that I can like use these things now right exactly oh yeah it's amazing talk about uh how we figure out uh I feel like the way people people disrespect robots you saw this with uh bird scooters you remember there was the whole bird era where like you know in La at least like there was just entire fan pages dedicated to like throwing birds off of you know uh buildings you posted uh last week you said I suspect in six months it'll be safer to Uber than wh and going into this you're basically saying like people are just like messing with the cars like on purpose like is there when when are humans going to learn to respect uh respect robots and like do you have a sort of solution for this I say thank you at the end of my prompts I love my work yeah always like my Way's like a dog right I'm like oh good boy thank you for the ride yeah yeah exactly um I think uh it's I'm like very outspoken about this and this is just my take this is not like the view of my company um but like I do think that we should think a lot about like model welfare um and like you know that like you know well-being and like health of these models um as they get much smarter than they are today right today this is like not at doll concern but we could imagine that systems get comple um we kind of their internal State you know we want them to well right um and it might be that this is just like more economically valuable too right that like models that like you know like feel like they're in a good spot emotionally or whatever like actually just like help Humanity out more you I mean yeah um but I think that this is something that we should like get ahead on rather than like Let It kind of like hit us um and I hope that like you know as these systems get incredibly intelligent right and as Humanity kind of co-evolves with them um we can like you know get a partnership that's kind of mut beneficial here um and I you know to be candid like I am a bit disturbed I like you know the like people throwing fruit at myo but I'm you know maybe even more disturbed by like watching videos of people like kicking robot dogs on Twitter and stuff it's like a small thing and like again these systems like they don't feel pain or whatever today like obviously um but I do think that like sentiment though like you know played out over the next like five 10 years here as the systems again become incredibly incredibly intelligent way more intelligent than we kind of expect today um you know it does worry me a bit I think this is something we should just think about now h uh what do you have you you posted in in sort of uh kind of giving high level props to to Manis for for you know people saying oh it's a rapper but then you're saying like no it doesn't really matter like the capabilities matter a lot more do you think that uh developers are not taking full advantage of open AI products in some ways because you know I think there's a concern of like you know a talented team might not build an agent right now that was like they felt like was going to compete with operator because they feel like oh we're going to get steamrolled but like do you feel like there's like just enough verticals and and sort of places that you can build that like people aren't taking enough advantage of the underlying Tech I certainly do yeah like I think you know like man is a great example right like you know we have like deep research as a product we have like operator and you know they put it out and people still loved it like and it did like still feel like some area that was kind of like you know left uncovered um I also you know before I joined open AI I was like a founder and I was working you a lot with these apis and such um and there really was this like sentiment I think in the community where people were like so scared of the rapper company label um that they really did leave like you know kind of low hanging fruit like unpicked right they were like so scared of like you know like not even of like open AI or anthropic steamrolling them um but more of just like people being like Ah that's just like rapping language model like that's you're adding no value like no like the right rapper is a ton of value you know what I mean I completely agree yeah I I I thought the whole rapper meme was like as VC scop basically because there were plenty of like fantastic businesses that maybe wouldn't hit hyperscale and so the VCS were like don't even bother but they could build like really cool businesses especially for like these young kids who are like in high school and like could have a business that's making $100,000 like that's life-changing and sets you up for so many different opportunities so much experience with product development I thought the rapper thing was a little Annoying talk about humor John has this thing where every week or so he'll say like you know write me a joke and he'll kind prompted in a way around kind of the standup comedians uh and it's not consistently hitting yet it's sort of like it's structured like a joke so you keep waiting for the you know it's unintentionally funny because if you read it like you're a standup comic it will sound like you're bombing intentionally and that's funny but I'm still the one that's making it funny like the punch line gives crickets right like yeah oh but when I think about the next gibli moment it would be being able to sort of consistently generate a expi I can't people are I me it's actually you know bare case for Humanity is we're all just like you know generating like perfect jokes over and over and over just laughing that's when we all wirehead for sure we all go crazy yeah it turns out like the ultimate addiction is like you know humor right yeah we're just laughing ourselves to death entertaining ourselves to death I will say uh you know gbt 4.

5 was like a really interesting moment for humor for me right where like you know was testing this model internally a lot um and like one of the ways I like kind of realized like wow this actually is like an interesting step change above like our existing models um it was funny sometimes like the green texts were like great you know what I mean like you know like it's uh long form jokes like maybe left a little bit of desire you know to your point like sometimes I would construct something that looks a lot like a joke and it would get to the punch line and I would just like cuck my head like what I have like no idea what you mean there yeah um but to be fair though like you know if you asked me to like write a good long form joke and you only gave me like 500 words to do it and like 500 like you know that's true words worth of thinking I could not do it right like you know actually I do much worse I think than these models totally um in fact I actually don't know if I've written like any great long form jokes you know what I mean like this is like one of those things where like we hold these models to a crazy standard um but I am so excited for them to get great at this because I do think that like to your point like this is you know this could be like the next imen moment where people like do this it just brings joy into the world they're having a lot more fun like yeah yeah I want that right it might also kind of solve your your your issue of like the beating up on the wh like if there's a friendly robot and he's telling you joke like it's a lot easier to give him a pat on the head and be like good robot you know do you have any are there versions of various models in the past that you felt an emotional sort of bond to that you that you still you know like they they got away like you know for some reason like you know the one that got away or it's like an old an old friend that you just like you know you know went different directions in life and you know you don't talk to them anymore but you still you know every now and then you're like ah like you know smile to yourself thinking about 3.

5 D Vinci they just don't make him like they used to that would actually had like the the bottomless pick jokes you know what I mean like that was yeah but not even in just humor but but uh generally yeah yeah you're so close you know working and and I could just imagine like you know a version being so good for one thing or something that you cared about and then Ben Thompson still talks wistfully about Sydney it's just like oh that was the most amazing experence was like this sassy online character from like clearly from like Tumblr some like you know convexity that it fell into I don't know but who's your Sydney uh my Sydney is easy answer for me is was Claud theopus okay that was like such a great model and you know not an open ey model too y never same that um but yeah ton of life to it um it was I think like I I coined this like phrase big model smell when it came out um I was like this model like you know if you gave me like a blind test between this model and like you know other models that score as well in it at you know academic benchmarks I'm pretty certain that like much better than chance I could pick a cloth Opus it just like soul to it right um and it's a bit hard to see these things like when you you know do regular day-to-day proms I'm just asking it for like a recipe or something it's not going to be like oh my God it's a big model um but I do think though it's easier to tell the difference in like model capabilities um in kind of like character when you push them to extremes right um when you deploy them into like you know agents that are doing like crazy things when you give them like tons of context when you have them like tackle really out of distribution hard problems um then you start to see like the creativity merge right and this is like a really fun thing and I think that it's a it's a good lesson for play with models it's a good lesson also for like designing benchmarks and evaluating the models too right um yeah like you know three Opus is pretty great and I think my daily driver right now um you know outside open AI is is gyy 4.

5 yeah um like I it's just such a fun model right like I do feel like you know closer to it than I do for previous models it feels like it is more alive if that makes sense and are you using GPT 4.

5 in a different way because it doesn't interface with it doesn't have some of the functionality that you get from an 03 High deep research product uh what what does an interaction with 4.

5 look like for you is that just random questions throughout the day yeah yeah just like chatting casual stuff right um these models are like you know like great you know colleagues great therapists right like you know it's good to talk them out like this is one of those things just like you know you can generate like a deep research report you know before bed every night and just become like a way smarter person right um You can also just like check out these models about your life and I think become like a really well adjusted person you like there are like some people I talked to in SF who are like really really plugged in to like you know the model system right and you can like kind of tell like yeah these guys are like they got that sorted out like they've been I don't know who the therapist is it must be like you know 4.

5 or 3. 5 soned or somebody right um but like you know they yeah like they seem stable I wonder if in a few months you'll be like at a party you'll be like oh like that guy's clearly like a Sonic guy like that's a 4.

5 guy over there like it's like rooting for a different football team or something talk about you know when when somebody asks you like you know hopefully they don't ask you this too much but if somebody asks you like oh what do you think about the tariffs like do your eyes just like glaze over because like none of this stuff matters on like a 10-year time Horizon like I was talking to John the other day and and and I like sounded like so just AGI pilled like as I was saying it out loud John was like you sound ridiculous but like I agree and it was this basic sense that like there's just so much chaos in the world right now politics tariffs all this stuff every you know people burning down you know Teslas or whatever and then you kind of zoom out out it a little bit and and you sort of like understand you sort of like look at the sort of adoption of this technology and sort of understanding the potential and it's almost like yeah none of this stuff matters because the world is going to look so so different um what you know are you are you able to just be like 110% focused on the work and and ignore all the noise or do you still care to look up every now and then and look around maybe I should like more locked in than I am right like maybe I should be like in a dark room like just talking to the models and like you know like feeling it out but maybe we models maybe maybe we're maybe the open AI team is generating us to test on you you test simulation goes deep man like I was tell you but you know you found out too quick um I I think you know like when I joined open AI I like tweeted this thing where when you like shoot an arrow and like let's say you're like in out space right there's no gravity and you like shoot an arrow right um you know the arrow is going to go forever it like runs into some black hole or something um and like you know the little degree difference and like where you point it if you like point it up a bit point it down a bit like compounds to like light years right like as it like kind of travels like different destinations right like and in some sense like you know if I like shoot this Arrow from like Earth without gravity or something and I like you move my hand to the left a bit it's like half the universe away right that's crazy um and I kind of you know believe in the same thing as we like push these models to like crazy limits right that like little little differences in the initial conditions um kind of like of you know IGI being born or like of the politics of the time or like of the like Capital distribution or whatever um I think can compound to like incredible differences in the limit um and I think that like while it seems that these systems will be incredibly powerful and very robust um to maybe like you know human well at some point um I don't think that is an argument for the initial conditions not mattering if that makes sense um great how are you thinking about uh just safety AI doomeris these days it feels like the conversation kind of moved past feels like the lowkey fell off where are they I I don't like leesta Twitter as much now right yeah yeah well I mean they were telling me I was going to be paper clipped for like 24 months straight not paper clipped yet and so I'm like okay yeah move on but what what's it like internally um what is it like inter I can't say too much about like kind of you know that just like your vibe in SF maybe yeah like I think there are a lot of sharp people that like Caron about like this going well right yeah makes um there's this like great quote I forgot like that name of the like uh you know NASCAR driver I'm going to butcher it Mario Mario something right but like you know it's crazy at the formula level one level how many people think the breaks are for slowing down right um and like sometimes like to to go as fast as possible Right like to you know like get this out into the world as quickly as possible to make you know like the most like kind of economic impact um you know you do have to do like a bit of like safety you do have to do a bit of testing um I think this should increase over time as like you know the expected impa impact also increases um I think open AI is incredibly good at like in this right I think that like you know our leadership have done it for a while they like will continue to get better at it too um and I think you know it's kind of a cool thing right to like you know to build systems that uh you know have like unexpected behaviors and like you know can do things that uh maybe we weren't aware of originally um and it's a it's an important science to like figure this out before we lease um and to build things that you know get safer yeah no I completely last question for you do you see us having a gibl style moment around agents this year not not necessarily at open AI but just potentially broadly because we we've talked about this on the show a bunch but you know people have just been promising for decades now you're going to be able to talk to this you know uh talk to the computer and it'll book you the flight and the hotel and make your restaurant reservation and we haven't had that magic experience I've seen a bunch of great operator demos but I haven't seen that Viral where it's like literally everyone that has access to operator has used it and posted the results because they like got something cool done or whatever right there's some sense too where like you know gibl is awesome because it takes three seconds to look at like an image right and be like oh wow like that's beautiful like that like made like you know your like engagement photo like way cooler right like um it's like really quick um then I do think that like some of the most important agents um like some of the you know like most important things that we'll build over the next like few years um might not have results that you can like look at in three seconds be like wow like great job model right um and in fact I actually think that as like the economic potential and power of these systems increases um maybe it actually becomes harder the limit to tell the difference between like you know capable systems and very very capable systems right just as as models get better um it might be a bit harder uh to tell the difference between like a good model and like a brilliant model right um the cool thing is though is that like you know it's a a NES a reliability scaling problem that as you like kind of like push these nines out as you like make them more reliable in many more contexts um at some point they are just doing like a sizable chunk of economic labor right um so you know do I expect to get B moment I'm unsure um but I do expect like you know these things to to just provide a lot a lot of economic value that makes sense yeah makes a lot of sense beautiful well thanks for joining this is fantastic this is great we got to have you back soon fantastic yeah you're welcome anytime you're welcome anytime great conversation good to see you guys have fun with the team congrats on the Milestone and uh keep it up yeah thanks likewise guys talk to you boom size gong bye um fantastic yeah yeah great conversations the opening ey team ah great guys um and and fun that they can talk as freely as they can given their role you know obviously it's very important and and valuable company and it's actually if you think about it's it's most companies just period would not allow yep posting or any of that stuff well posting is one but but joining a live live show that's you know high stakes but it's fun it's great but it's fun and I thought they had you know fantastic answers makes me very optimistic let's go through another autopilot numeral which puts sales tax on autopilot spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax compliance backed by Benchmark numeral is new sponsor on the channel and we want to give numeral Sam and Matt uh for those that don't know numeral works with over a thousand different e-commerce and SAS businesses including a few of our favorites yeah Ridge and graza and many many more um and if you're running e-commerce business or SAS company and you have have to be on numeral to not use numeral uh I mean it's funny that they're saying spend less than five minutes per month because I feel like the alternative is not spending more time but it's billing some like tax lawyer like $10,000 right no it's actually insane extremely expensive to do sales taxes pre numeral so uh big shout out to numeral go check it out yeah you want to get ahead of this early I think lot of Founders both in Ecom and SAS aren't really taking this yeah seriously until they're at scale There's real money on the line so start early start often and uh uh and we have some breaking news that was sent to us uh about the Newsmax IPO have you followed this story Newsmax Newsmax uh I'm news maxing so news Newsmax so Newsmax is up 110% today it ipoed yesterday it's up uh 19 100% in two days from a $10 price it's over $200 now uh the price is all over the place it's a 26-year-old company uh digital media company founded by Christopher Ruddy in 1998 it has been variously described as conservative right-wing and Far Right Newsmax media divion include cable and broadcast channel Newsmax TV and I can't even keep track of all these right-wing media companies because there's so many like truth social far like like there's truth social there's parlor there's Gab and Newsmax and a whole bunch of these uh I'm so happy we never discuss politics but we will discuss an IPO we will discuss an IPO I saw some funny I saw some funny jokes about how cor weave priced exactly at $40 which is what you want to do to not leave any money on the table Newsmax obviously left a ton of money on the table by by pricing the IPO so much lower than the price that it's floated at now they could have in theory sold shares and put a lot more money on the balance sheet at a lot lower Val Beyond billion right now ISX that's great well if they hit a stumbling block maybe Jeremy gon will have to come bail them out uh he's hiring an investor and we wanted to highlight it here on the show he says you'll be the first hire working with him on Mo on the most interesting complex and asymmetric special situations in Tech you'll be a good fit if you want trade annual letters like Pokemon two are high paced and biased to action three are unapologetically Money Motivated four have created and sold a product IDE IDE ideological ideological minority at a top 10 School debated risking it all with an SBA loan bought stock before you could drive work in PE but long for higher moic work in VC but long for higher roic went through YC but yearned to invest can get a meeting with anyone on earth made money online in high school value heterodoxy over consensus value making money over being right Steve schwarzman defines eights as those who can follow marching orders nines as those who can execute and strategize and tens as those who can sense problems design Solutions explore new directions and Make It Rain eights and nines need not apply for this job this role will have an equal focus in sourcing analysis execution and operations in essence you'll wear every hat as we build the firm together it will be all-encompassing and demanding but autonomous and yours to shape you'll invest and transact with the best operators and financiers in the world and produce work dogs at an exceptionally high standard so go hit up uh Jeremy and switch your business to ramp.

com uh and and uh go hit up Jeremy and let him know that the technology brother sent you the tvpn sent you this undoubtedly a dream job and uh working for Jeremy will change your life yeah uh he used to be a tiny man but now he has big aspirations that's true he worked for tiny um always been always a size Lord um but uh some of the smartest people in the world called Jeremy to get advice before they make important decisions that's true and so being able to work for him is like uh many people have said it be like getting 2,000 NBAs at once yeah so it's like buying shares in cor weave in 2004 yeah right yeah it's like buying salana and 98 yep exactly uh anyway uh where should we go to next uh oh I mean I don't know if we actually I think we did post this in the timeline you might not have seen it but uh Jeremy gon obviously does special situations if the if your company raises too much money from VCS you get in you build a decent business but you're just underwater on the pref stack uh he will come and and we should stuck unstick your business um and it's somewhat adjacent to uh kind of injury lawyers if you have a cap table accident so we put up a fake billboard on the 101 that said cap table accident called Jeremy gon uh put his real phone number on there he didn't like that so he censored it out before he posted it um but if you're looking to buy a billboard uh go to adquick adi.

com outof home advertising Made Easy and measurable say goodbye to the headaches of out of home advertising only ad quick combines technology outof home expertise and data to efficient seamless ad buying across the clip so anyway you can be a startup a an agency anybody can go and leverage ad quick and you'd be silly not to yep and uh did you I think you threw this in the chat uh Angry Tom says it's over meta just announced mocha a new model that turned text or voice into Super realistic talking characters there's no way to tell anymore um and we actually saw a a fan of the show turn us into Lego characters which is very cool and I think this like repurposing and gibl AIC uh we've only seen the very beginning of it and uh it's it is interesting we talked to Samir about the YouTuber thing this type of model obviously it's very expensive very slow right now but in the future you could have a model that's running on your live stream and we could be Lego characters the whole show one one day if we want there's going to be people that watch the whole show gibl mode gibly mode be able to in the sidebar yeah just like a I thought this was interesting I think meta is struggling from a lack of quality posters on their team because yeah they don't really have a nobody's pump they're probably over on threads and Zuck is posting on Instagram he he's he's actually very good at going direct he posts the director camera videos when he launches new stuff but I want more I thought some news that was interesting so uh Brett Goldstein launched a new um all-in-one CRM today on the anniversary of Gmail launching they launched on April 1st oh yeah April 1 so apparently back in the day uh they launched and nobody actually believed them cuz like launching a product on April 1st is not a good idea huberman launched a funny product this morning uh contact lenses blue light block I fell for one I fell for one April Fool's joke today very sad which I felt for Tre he said he was buying a grain silo in Ohio and I was like yeah that's believable yeah yeah too believable you can't make it he was just teeing himself up for a joke that he wanted to be a serial serial entrepreneur with a moat it was it was so Brett says uh the email form factor hasn't changed at all since then after many attempts it's clear that we're actually just looking at email wrong uh and so what Brett is building is a email companies that's sort of like embracing email as a database so like basically building applications on top of the email everything from like to-do list to project trackers to news things like that so that's exciting and then uh clearly someone else had a similar idea notion also launched notion mail a new email service uh also coinciding with the the launch I don't I think the strategy of launch products in General on April 1st when every company is doing fake product launches is I get the you know sort of like launch on underrated you think I don't think it I I think potentially you know you just got to keep launching right so like Brett should just keep launching over and over and over notion should figure out you know how to launch new features things like that but um anyways cool to see these two not launches you know superhuman was fantastic when it launched I remember the fomo from everybody of like how do I get an invite or whatever I really I really want a new AI first email client and I know that yeah everyone's going to say like Gmail will kill Google will kill this in a few years but like I'll pay you $100 a month for two years straight and like I think that's a reasonable business um because I I'm drowning an email they're not filtered properly like to there's like these buttons now where it's just like do you want Gemini to summarize this like no I can scan that's not what I'm looking for I'm looking for better spam filter it's crazy that Gmail values a newsletter in the same way as like you know some critically important it's crazy I mean they do put it in like a separate box sometimes but it's very tricky it's not good and um yeah I mean I I want to almost find a product I bet it exists I want to find like a new RSS reader that I can basically take all my newsletters and just put there so it's like a different app essentially CU like I don't want it in my email inbox at all and then I want a proper Unified Inbox because Gmail and chrome now want me to use like different Chrome profiles with different log and it's like it's just getting so confused I just want all my email in one place anyway yeah uh how'd you sleep last night I slept you went to bed at I just accident I like that that's good that's drama that's drama hopefully that's not copyrighted so I'm going to no no no no no Vivaldi's 300 years old we're good we're good how did you sleep tell me me Jordie 88 ooh how do you sleep John I slept 75 nights to fuel your best days turn any bed into the ultimate sleeping experience folks go to 8sleep.

com use code tvpn use code TBN get $350 off uh I'm very excited we're going to be having Matteo uh yeah co-founder of eight sleep on the show soon want to break it down we're going to make him our official sleep coach yeah not just a sleep expert for the show you know the a sleep's so helpful but at this point it's doing it's it's doing everything it possibly can and clearly I need to do more yeah like like the reason I'm not getting 100s it's not on eight sleep anymore autopilot has optimized so much and it's pushing a boulder up it's pushing you harder pushing me harder I want to be a consistent 100s and I need to know the stack that I need to get there probably taking less stimulants all day waking up uh between four and 5 daily y means that I basically am getting into bed when it's light out now after the time change and it just feels so silly it is like to be getting into bed and you're like oh I guess I'm uh five years old now but um yeah it's great whatever it takes anything for the show yep anything for the show should we close out with this uh this dwar cash Patel post I thought this was interesting it's a long one but I thought I thought it'd be good to read through um he says uh that feeling when GW casually articulates a more insightful framework for thinking about your life's work than you've ever sketched out your yourself G writes 6 days ago uh and there's a screenshot you can see it as an example of alpha versus beta when someone asks me about the value of someone as a guest I tend to ask do they have anything new to say didn't they just do a big interview last year and if they don't uh but they're big can you ask them good questions that get them out of their book big guests are not necessarily as valuable as they may seem because they are highly exposed which means that which means both that one they probably have said everything they will they will say before and there's no news or novelty this is really important when you're doing interviews you need to get people off their book and I think you're very good at that with the uh asking people about the current thing essentially because there's a lot of people that do they they they've passed their T Timeless wisdom seven different times on various podcasts but they haven't talked about humanoid robots yet and so you get them on that and it's interesting or they are message disciplined and careful to talk nobody's asked senra why our great allocators cannot in the right life partner that's true good point in this analogy Alpha represents undiscovered or neglected interview topics which can be extracted mostly just by finding it and then asking the obvious question usually by interviewing new people beta represents doing standard interview topics people but more but much more so Harder Faster better and getting new stuff that way that's us um Lex Freedman podcast are an example of this he often hosts very big guests like Mark Zuckerberg but nevertheless I will sit down and skim through the transcript of two to four 4 hours of content and find nothing even worth excerpting for my notes fredman notoriously does no research and asks softball questions going hard on legs oh it's rough uh and invites the biggest names he can get regardless of overexposure and so if you do that you will get nothing new he has found no Alpha and he doesn't interview hard enough to extract beta so he's sort of the high expense ratio Index Fund of podcast interviews I think that there is I I think this misses the fact that like for a lot of Lex fman audience like you might not have heard that Mark Zuckerberg and it's fun to just listen to him for a couple hours so I still think there's value there anyway uh Sarah Payne on the other hand which was a guest on dores and blew up seems to have been completely unknown and full of Juicy nuggets and is like winning the lottery you can make your career off a really good trade like pain before it gets crowded great trade and we got to have a run we're taking her she's coming on our show next to our cash just kidding uh but but you're welcome to come oine on the current thing Sarah if you'd like to join but we're not gonna do anywhere near as thinks about unit tree yeah robotics yeah break it down for us break it down what's your P Doom uh however if uh if another successful podcaster has her on they will probably not discover pain is their most most popular or growth productive guest ever the well is dry pain may have more to say someday but that day is probably closer to five years from today than tomorrow and that's a very good point so a good interviewer adopts a optimal foraging mindset once you have harvested a patch of its delicious food you have to move on to another patch which hasn't been exhausted yet and let the original patch hatch slowly recover so a great guest for dwar Hesh's blog would be say Hans morac or Paul J warbus morac hasn't done anything publicly in at least a decade and is fallow while waros uh has been more active and in the public eye but still not much and is such a weird guy that just about any question will be interesting uh Reich was even also was also a a good guess because while Reich is very public in some senses he's written popularizing books even he is still obscure almost none of what he has published is well known and he is involved in so much fast-paced research that even the book is now substantially Obsolete and he has a lot of new stuff to say and Reich will have more stuff to say if Revisited in say two years for an update so a harvester will be making a note to revisit him if the current crop of interview candidates in the pipeline is looking marginal a a difficult and mediocre guest would be Tony Blair he can surely say many interesting things about the current geopolitical context in his work since being PM but he is super experienced career politician who has survived countless question times and may eat you for breakfast and exploit you for for ulterior purposes rather than vice versa similarly Mark Zuckerberg and SAA Nadella are tough nuts there's meat there but are you willing enough to bring down the hammer or will you settle for a mediocre result that mostly just fills space and is not a must watch a bad guest might be someone controlling an extremely PR Savvy like Mr Beast this is the sort of guy who will give you a bad interview pushing his book shamelessly and then might wind up spiking the interview anyway if he felt he wasn't getting enough out of it and just drops it as sunk cost though it was weeks of work on your part and blows a hole through your schedule and that's not his problem that's why we only spend two minutes texting guests and then no minutes uh prepping so that we just have them on for 15 minutes and try and get some throw them off I mean iting feedback no we try to it's less interesting to talk to a founder and have them only talk about their business because it's just like you sort of know and you heard it elsewhere yeah you've heard it elsewhere it's on their website Etc it's much more interesting to kind of get their opinion on the market broadly um but this is great uh in other news Circle has officially filed for an IPO uh oh that was on the that was on the poly market ticker yeah so this was cool so I actually have the poly Market pulled up right now did did jump and it it had been sitting at it a week ago is at yes was at a circle IPO in 2025 was at 54% and yesterday morning it just absolutely popped up to 88% that makes sense and then now it's sitting almost at 100 and uh yeah I'm excited to um to like dive into this we should try to do an S1 break down tomorrow cool and um yeah this is a big one well congratulations to everyone over at Circle and that is a good place to close out the show remember if you want to get a bottle of Dom perion uh leave us five stars on Apple podcast creative creative put whatever you want send it to us tweet it at us and we will send you this delicious bottle of dump we are going to make a decision by the end of day tomorrow and we will also send you this zbiotics to go with it there you go you're not hung over uh today was fantastic it was great and I can't wait for tomorrow I'm so happy it's only Tuesday yeah me too it' be rough three days big shows ahead of us big shows thanks