Roy Lee built Cluely — an AI 'cheat on everything' desktop app — after getting suspended from Columbia and blacklisted by Amazon

very happy to have him join. How you doing, Roy? Welcome to the show. What's up, brothers? What's up, brother? Great to have you. How have the last few days been for you? Can you take us through, uh, the brief, uh, prehistory here of what happened with Colombia? And then we'll get into what happened with your launch.

Yeah, I mean, uh, earlier this semester or earlier this year, I built this tool called Interview Coder to let you, uh, cheat on your technical interviews for software engineering jobs like Lee Code style interviews. Um, I filmed myself using this to get a job at Amazon.

Um, I recorded it, posted it online, and Colombia saw, Amazon reported me to Colombia.

Um, Amazon is mad, Columbia's mad, and this ends up being a spat that I sort of publicize on my Twitter, becomes this big spectacle, and I eventually get kicked out of Columbia or suspended for a year and, um, blacklisted from most big tech companies. What was the original plan here?

Uh wait, what was the original plan a publicity stunt or did you actually want the job at Amazon? I I I was never intending on taking a job at Amazon. Um the the the impetus for everything was I did a bunch of legal questions thinking that I would work at a big tech company one day.

I really hated it and at a certain point I kind of just thought I really want to build companies is what I want to do with my life. So um this is just seems like the the optimal route for everything.

I can make this big protest against leak code and at the same time I can do something that I suspect will be super viral and just give me like a distribution channel to build off. Yeah, that makes sense. No, it's crazy.

I mean, uh there's there's uh many people in venture that have spent uh you know 10 plus years trying to build a following here and and and you know the the growth of your account alone in the last few months has just been insane to watch.

Um and yeah absolutely gives you an edge as you now um you know come and so take us through the product what you launched and how that video came together. Yeah. So I mean Cluey is supposed to be the I guess the ultimate uh experience layer for AI.

Um in a world where models are truly multimodal and you can sort of have an AI that remembers the last 10 years about your life. Nobody's going to be on a chatbot chatt. com. Where are they going to be on? They're going to be on Cluey and this is what we hope to build and this is what we are building.

Um, we sort of filmed this launch video to be like a a vision for the ultimate end state of what does true AI in everything look like? Um, like like a true AI maximalist life 10 years out in the future. What does that look like?

And it ended up coming together really well and it I I think it resonated well with the world. Um, went very viral and very controversial, but yeah, very controversial. How did you you went against uh, you know, the norm. You launched uh 2:00 p. m. Pacific on a sun on on Easter.

Uh, did you just launch uh when when you were ready or was that was that planned at all? Yeah, I mean it was 420 and it was sort of in brand with like me being like the the little like punk college kid like I'll launch on 420. Might as well. Okay, that makes sense. Makes sense. Yeah.

What about uh uh has any of the push back been um correct? Can you steel man any of the push back? Is it bad to cheat? I think I think there's two worlds of or like there's there's two big arguments for the push back.

The first is this is dystopian and this sort of destroys what it means to be human and and I I disagree with that pretty fundamentally. I think every time technology has advanced our capabilities uh people have said the same thing. This destroys what it means to be human.

But ultimately like that never ends up being the being the case. We just become more efficient as a species. And the traits that make us human are not the traits that sort of like AI can fill in the blank for. Um the the the second uh large area of push back is um this is cheating and cheating is unethical.

I think it's sort of the phrase cheat on everything is left intentionally vague. I mean what exactly does cheat on everything even mean? You can cheat on a test but you can't really cheat on a sales call. You can't cheat on a meeting. You can't cheat on a conversation.

Um what cluey or what AI allows is sort of like an unfair advantage that is so unfair that it feels like cheating. Imagine you're in a sales call, have this tool, this it's this like this genius tool that knows everything about you, your company, your clients.

Anytime a technical question is asked or an objection is asked immediately it just knows and just can give you the right answer. Like your human intuition just looks at that and thinks, "Wow, this this is not fair. This is cheating.

" But I mean ultimately this is where the world is headed and really this just like makes us 100 times more efficient. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I love it.

I mean in many ways business is like you know feels like a sport in some ways yet there's sort of laws that govern you know corporations and you know different different markets but there's nothing there's nothing wrong with giving yourself every possible advantage to win and so you should absolutely just use every tool available to you to win.

Yeah. Uh talk through the product. Uh, version one seems like maybe a web app or an iPhone app, but then it seems like there's a it seems like there's like a like a augmented reality vision in the future. Um, but how are you thinking about that?

Because you know there's a monopoly in Apple products, there's a monopoly on foundation models now like uh where are you seeing yourself break through? Are you sitting on top of different systems or trying to build something from scratch? Right.

Right now the the vision um the the the version of the app that we have is just a desktop app has complete access to your screen and your system audio. So it sees everything you're seeing and it hears everything you're hearing and can help with that context.

Um ultimately though what we want uh the end state of the product is a chip inside your brain that lets you use AGI to think.

um that that is the ultimate end state and the way we get there will be sort of like like variable up like it's if the models get significantly better significantly fast the chips get better significantly better super fast then um it's sort of like uh like the way we get there is is is is subject to change right now we are building a really really good desktop app that can be the player ultimate player two for your computer.

Yeah. Uh what what would you uh how do how do you respond to like the criticism that like maybe you're overoptimizing for distribution ahead of product? You're you're going viral like you're frustrating people.

You're being controversial and like maybe you should just be heads down and like go build something great and then you know the the the business will build up slowly over time. And this is like oh you're like clout chasing is like the criticism. I think there's a lot of people that say distribution is the final mode.

In fact, everybody says this, distribution is the last mode. Anything can be built. And if you truly believe this, then you would behave exactly how I'm behaving. That's a good point. That's a really good point. But but but specifically like the there are different there are different modes of distribution, right?

Like you could you could have found a distribution angle that frustrated people less, right? Or was less edgy, right? And and so uh is is is the need to be edgy is that a product of the way our social networks work or the way our our distribution like moes already exist?

Like there's already a like the the humane team was able to get distribution and attention by kind of aping an Apple ad. Uh and they were able to get a distribution. You went a very different direction. Is that are you a like a product of the of modernity I suppose? Yeah. Yeah. I I I would think so.

I think I I have a very unique um and I I think a very strong viral sense. I have an intuition about what makes things go viral and what things will go viral. And for me, that's like pretty edgy. And I would probably think and most people probably agree the video wasn't nearly as controversial.

It wouldn't do 10 million views in two days. I agree. Yeah, that makes sense. Uh talk about how the round came together in the process there.

Uh, I remember you first started going viral and I imagine it was just your DMs, you know, flooded by, uh, you know, everybody pushing back being like, you know, this is this is wrong. But I think you were smart to pick like a common sort of like enemy. Like people generally are sort of anti-un university right now.

They're sort of anti- elite code. But talk about how the how the round came together and and um yeah, I'm curious cuz that that kind of like you basically did a you know indirect road show where you had the attention of everyone in tech for you know a period of time.

It was a really messy round and I don't think I can advise most people on fundraising. The round in total lasted less than 24 hours. Yeah, I remember that. You just like posted I think I saw one post and then you were like, "Okay, the round's done. That's awesome.

We we our our pitch and our entire deck changed twice in the middle of the round. And the only thing we came in really knowing was I'm super hot right now. We can build a bigger company and right now is the best time to get money. Real in reality in the future there were only two worlds.

One, I fell off and I can't raise again. Or two, um I succeed massively and all of a sudden like the extra 5 10% dilution here if we up is like it means nothing. Yeah. How do you um how do you think about sort of like flexibility at the product level?

Like it seems like you have a very clear vision of how to unlock AI for individuals broadly and it it sounds like starting in the workplace, but are you flexible in terms of what that sort of exact implementation looks like? What kind of you know different niches? I can see the application in sales etc.

But but how are you thinking about sort of adapting now that you have like this flood of customer demand and attention? Now you need to like, you know, turn it into durable revenue and things like that.

Yeah, I mean this is something that there there's like a really really hopefully viral experiment that I'm going to try that will be the first of its kind. Um I'll just announce this right now.

We're probably going to hire about a hundred interns and we're going to turn them into like sort of the ultimate content farm over the summer. So be like the most motivated high school and college kids.

I really truly believe if you're over the age of 23, you probably don't have the viral sense that you need to go like consistently massively viral. We're hoping to have this like gigantic content farm and every single one of them will be sort of assigned a different use case for the product.

Um, you guys are going to advertise this product for sales calls and you guys are going to just like ship out content for sales. You guys going to are going to advertise this for meetings and you're you guys are going to advertise the deep research feature.

um and and and sort of like the be consistent virality and attention on the different uh use cases will uh that that will make it what's do I mean do you have do you have a suspicion as to which uh which use case is most profitable in the in the midterm because I mean the RZ app already exists for messaging people on dating apps deep research allows you know basically everyone to already cheat on their research papers if they have to write research papers uh there are co-pilots all over the place and you're kind of pitching like an omni co-pilot at least in the short term.

Um, do are you still is your formula like go viral and tr test everything and then find a new niche and then double down on that and then maybe we're talking to you next year and you're like yeah we we we found it we cracked it and we are we are cheat on sales calls and we're and we're you know great for SDRs and we've kind of dropped all of the other things or uh or do you really want this to be everything for everyone on day one?

everything for everyone on day one is uh a bit unrealistic right now. The two things that we're really zoning in on are are our our meetings like virtual meetings like this and um also sales calls.

Uh but it's entirely possible that every single use case flops doesn't go viral isn't helpful except for one random use case in which case will like quintuple down on that. Um but the the end state is you know like AI for everyone for everything.

I I I want to go deeper on the actual um like hacking your way into products to make using the product easier. Uh talk to me about getting an iPhone app. Is there a way that you can hack your way into the camera button with a with a shortcut or the action button on the iPhone? Uh meta raybands.

Is there a deal that you can do to take over for that? like it feels like most of the hardware providers are have very sharp elbows around their ecosystem. Some of that's breaking with the latest uh you know FTC lawsuits and maybe they're more open to it in the future.

Also like the the failure or like the the the setbacks to Apple intelligence have kind of raised questions about like hey should that Siri button be remappable to other things. Um, how are you seeing the the landscape around hardware evolve?

Because that feels really really important to you if you don't want to go build it yourself, burn $100 million trying to build the next Apple product. Yeah, I I I don't actually think that uh we'll we I I I doubt that we'll ever be integrated into the iPhone.

I don't actually know that that is the best modality even if we could. Um I think I think most people I mean friend. com OMI like like everyone is sort of betting on the idea that there will be like this new hardware element that that that is like a companion.

Um, I think that's if we were to delve into hardware, that would be most realistic um as like the next step. But what I really would like to do is sort of like beat out Neurolink and just sort of just directly skip all that and get to the chip inside your brain. That is the true end state is what we want.

Anyways, um um yeah, don't ask the Neuralink guys about timelines. Then uh can you talk about uh what the general, you know, while you were at Colombia, what the vibe was on campus?

I'm assuming everybody's using chat GBT, but do they know like do they have a sense like is this is there Tyler Cowan like has has completely embraced AI in his uh I believe graduate level economics courses where he says yeah go have Chachi PT write the paper then dig into it and teach me something from it.

It seems like he has a very positive view on AI in education. What's been your experience? Yeah. And and and getting into that more, is there a general fear about AI on campus?

Are people like worried, oh, am I gonna job displacement, things like that, or are they just excited to leverage it uh to grow and and be better at their jobs, etc.

There there's definitely concern, but I think the most interesting thing here that most adults probably don't realize is exactly how many people are using AI.

I mean the the percentages get even more skewed at the higher level schools, but I will say out of every single person I've met at Columbia campus, there is not a single undergraduate who hasn't cheated on at least one assignment using AI.

Um, and the vast majority of CS majors at like literally You should tell them to kick everybody out. Kick everybody out. Just whistleblow. Clear the slate. Yeah. Whistleblow. Colia whistleblower. No. See, Colombia, cheating's okay. It's trolling that gets you in trouble. And you troll. Don't have fun.

Don't expose, you know, technological changes. You will be you'll be blocked. Who who who are your Who are your inspirations? Are you like a Nathan Fielder type guy? I feel like there's someone that you look to in your in your uh virality. Who inspires you? Bill Burn, Nathan Fielder. Those guys are are are so funny.

Dave Chappelle. I mean, like I was big in that. Um there's like a lot of like Asian content creators college that that that are funny, too. That's awesome. Uh last question, Jerry. Uh, no. I love it. Uh, who are you? Uh, do you have h have you put together a team of of, you know, former classmates?

Have you gotten anyone else to to bail with you? What does your team look like today? Yeah. Um, so over half the team is friends that I met from community college actually. Um, and the other people are my co-founder who dropped out and also the guy who's probably going to be validictorian of Columbia. There we go.

That's Are you Are are you worried about any like serious backlash from Colombia? Because I saw the thing where like they told you don't share this document. You shared it. It feels like like they find out you have 5 million bucks, they sue you. Like I just want to go out on the lens.

I will I will I will give money to the Roy Lee Defense Fund. So you we got you. We got you. I I I I'm anti-cheing in the literal sense, but I I I like I like building and and I also like trolling and comedy. So, uh I'm like 50/50 on you, I guess. Why are you worried? I'm not as reckless as people think.

Uh I read the documents very carefully before disclosing the the confidential and there's like it was not legal. This is the worst case get expelled and for me probably the best case. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

I I I I I think I would be okay with you getting kicked out of Colombia, but I would be upset if they really tried to put I'm going to go out on a limb and I'm going to say I I I believe there's a real chance that you eventually go back and give the graduation speech at, you know, you're going to have a you're going to have a a crazy arc and I'm I'm excited to witness it.

I hope so. I hope so. Yeah. Good luck. Love it. Hopefully there's not too many crazy bisdev deals between you and success because I feel like if if it comes down to it and it's like in order to win you have to partner with Apple. You might have to clean it up a little bit. But good luck to you.

I'm sure you'll figure it out. And thank you so much. This is a very exciting story and uh I love when everyone blows up the internet like you did. Yeah. Congratulations on on all the momentum in the round and excited to have you back on soon. Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you guys. We'll talk later. Cheers. Bye. Later.

Next up, we got Jacob from Superpower announcing a $30 million series A, B, C, D. Series A. Series A. That's um and also a SUSA Ventures. Back to back SUSA. Back to back. It's day. It's Chad day. Shout out. It's Chad Chad day. April 22nd will forever be known as Chad. I'm a Chad. I invest in Chad's.

That's his That's his investment thesis. The end. The end. We got Jacob here. Let's bring him in. Jacob, how you feeling? How you doing? Should we ring the size gong for you preemptively? Congratulations on the round. How's it going? Jordy, gentlemen, great to see you guys. Great to see you. Good to see you.

Uh, give us the breakdown. What are you announcing? Uh, and give us the the high level pitch for Superpower, $30 million series A. It's our biggest capitalization to date. Capital is no longer constraint. And we're building a