BoxGroup's David Tisch on AI M&A, brand moats, and being a seed investor in Cursor and Clay

to the show. How you doing? Why limit it to the south of France? There are a lot of destinations. You guys are being quite isolated in Okay, so give us the full tour. How do we make sure that the show doesn't implode in August when all the venture capitalists go on vacation and we have no one to yap with?

I think you need a yacht. A yacht. Okay. Yeah. Like you guys need a yacht and then you travel from port to port the VCs. Yes. Okay. And what ports are we bring the show on the road? We're going uh There's a I mean there's like level VC and then as they get more advanced I feel like you can find new destinations.

Antarctica for the really successful adventurous. Yeah. If your yacht doesn't have an icebreaker, I'm sorry. You're not ready to read. You're not ready to lead the series B's of I agree. I think we should get into Halo jumping. So when we when we get intel, hey, there's a big VC in Antarctica.

We're just pulling the parachute minutes before hitting the ground. Seconds before hitting the ground. show up with the mic. What do you do for a living? So, and and if this period, as you alluded to, works, I mean, the destinations we're gonna expand to. Tremendous. I think I think so. There's something here.

There's something here. We'll keep we'll keep noodling on it. Anyway, uh how they have a wander location in all the places you need to go. I mean, let's get the plugs going. We do need we do need a wander uh we do need to wander in Antarctica.

Yeah, they should definitely get some of those locations on on board the Greenland location. the ones that just pop up purely for marketing mostly. But yeah, you know, I would take them up on that for sure. Yeah. Um but yeah, how was your weekend?

How are you processing all the the flurry of uh of news and business and trade deals and biotech? Do you have any exposure in your portfolio? What are you excited about right now? I think we I I my wife makes clothes in China. Oh, okay. So that that's my main exposure. So I live with exposure. Sure. If you will.

And so and making clothes is not a good business for anybody. And and then when you get tariffed uh aggressively, you start doing math and your math already doesn't work. Yeah. So then you're like, "Oh, what if we make it worse? " And so I think I live with her emotions. Um which which impacted me.

I think as a a venture firm, we're generalists. We have exposure in all different categories. I think um you know the TJ who's joining you after I think we'll talk about the the pharmaceutical side of this.

I think there's you're in a world where reading headlines reacting to them and then waiting until the news comes out, right? You read about the China deal. It's like we made a deal, we'll let you know the details. Oh, okay. No rush. Market market immediately starts pricing it in. Zero rush.

Just let us know whenever you get a chance and then we'll understand things better. Um, and I feel like all of the news is getting rolled out like that where you're like, "Here's the headline, more to come.

" Um, and I think reacting, again, reacting to that as an early stage VC is is important for Twitter, uh, or what we call X, it's important for podcasts and really unimportant for the actual job.

So you have to balance these two stressors out which is like how do I get engaged and sound like this is really impactful to me and it matters and I have to overreact and then on the same time just doesn't matter.

Well, I think for you, if you're a true contrarian, which every VC should be, everybody's bearish biotech, you know, they've had a bunch of, you know, issues over the years. You should just invest in like 30 new biotech companies today, even without any sort of real insider edge. Just we probably did.

I was on an airplane today and there's a chance that we did that today. Like 30 new 30 new deals. Yeah, we're investors in Zach Weinberg's Cury, which in fact does 30 new biotech deals regularly. So, we have achieved your goal. Yeah, I think he's hopping on the show next week to give us his his take of all the biotech.

Yeah, there's going to be three more news and chill. Yeah, I'm sure. Uh yeah, I mean, wait, talk more about that idea of like patience and venture.

There was this uh headline recently that uh Tiger Global, they got really stung during the ZERP era, but they're looking a lot better because they put a bunch of money in OpenAI and that eventually seasoned.

Uh we saw the same thing with the FTX fund buying a big stake in Anthropic and uh and and the the deal winding up looking great over time. Um what uh what and they they invested in Cursor too. Oh yeah, Curser Open AI invested in Cursor, right? Yeah. Yeah. Uh, didn't FTX as well? Yeah, they might have. Yeah, I think so.

But they sold that. That got sold by the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It got sold in like the bankruptcy. No one knows who bought it. Yeah. That I mean that that that FTX's investment was not one of the best investments ever. It was the person who bought it out of the cursor mouth on Twitter that was shared made no sense. Yeah.

The 200 to 500 million that that was that's not how math works. Yeah. Like there's no equation that equals that. Like you can't get there. I was confused by that, but I didn't want to keep my mouth shut. Maybe they invested like a $50,000 post money. O3 is not very good at numbers yet.

We invested in the seed preede of cursor and I that math wasn't correct. Yeah. Okay. I I can tell you that. Otherwise, you wouldn't you wouldn't be doing podcasts anymore from a hotel room. Yeah. I would be on I would be on my yacht. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean speaking of uh like cursor and just like the the the AI application market broadly uh how are you thinking about demand from the hyperscalers for uh finding a dance partner in the application layer companies.

There was a big meme for a while that all these companies are just going to get steamrolled by the foundation model companies.

Now we're seeing deals get done and uh I've been you know arguing with Jordy about you know what if there is a world where every hyperscaler needs a dance partner in AI in the AI application layer and there's just a flurry of M&A deals. Um that seems plausible but Jord's a little bit more hesitant about that.

what what's your take on uh how the how the M&A markets look for application layer AI companies in big tech now in the new era I think I think you know application layer companies is a catchall of so many different behaviors and and paths in does every application layer company look the same no I think what you're looking at is in many ways a brand and there is like a speed moment momentum and scale advantage to not being first mover but to being fastest mover.

Is there a barrier to switching like there has been historically in software? Probably not. But in many spaces, barriers haven't been the the thing that defends winners. It has been brand and it has been sort of recognition.

And I think that that piece has been under sort of underappreciated and open AI is the perfect example of that, right? Chat GPT. The idea that that like name Yeah. created it became a household. It's like hard to say. It's weird. I don't think technical people understand like why is that the name? But yet here it is.

Yep. Household name. Yep. It's it's very hard to disrupt that on a better model. Yeah.

a better piece of technology isn't gonna suddenly like the same way Google won search by Google becoming the verb not because Google's search engine necessarily was always the single best product the single best tech even though it was for the most part I think there's a brand value and so at the app layer I think brand is equally going to be important here if you can and and more users more usage on your product it ideally improves because of as as you know AI.

Um, and that's going to matter. There's a compounding value of scale that's different than just the initial momentum. And I think that that's underappreciated. In terms of M&A, um, I'm more interested to see if the big companies need to buy app layer companies, right? The the fangs of the world or the big seven.

um if the government allows actual M&A to happen uh anymore, I think that's the more intriguing unlock versus all the sort of foundation models buying a handful of app layer companies. I think there is a value of sort of buy users and buy scale uh that you're probably looking at at the at the beginning stages.

Yeah, it's almost more like product. Like I I feel like Google has their destination website. They can point Google. com to anything and they can funnel a billion. I mean, Sundar recently said that uh Google has over a billion users of generative AI.

And this is the same story with Llama getting stuffed into WhatsApp and Instagram. They have a billion users, but the product isn't thought of in the same conversation as chat GBT, which is a destination, a front end, the front door to artificial intelligence.

Um, and so yeah, there's something that there's some still secret sauce to building really great products that happens kind of only in the startup ecosystem. And if you look at Facebook now Meta on the way up, right, they were buying things every step of the way that felt either threatening or felt interesting.

So if you go back to friend feed, a they bought a CTO there, right? And so Brett stayed on and built a big chunk of the technology inside of Facebook.

But friend feed was was an interesting early momentum uh company and then they bought you know obviously Instagram and WhatsApp totally sort of separate channels within this bigger ecosystem. It ties into the business model. I look at those acquisitions is how you historically built companies in tech.

If you go to this like previous 10-year period when the government sort of stopped allowing it and valuations and founder expectations just became misaligned with acquirers, you saw so little M&A in terms of companies growing and getting bigger.

And I think you're coming back into an era where the valuations of the foundation model companies, the valuations of the the big tech public companies are so large that you can actually hit a founder expectation in terms of acquisition and not make as big of a dent.

You're not paying, you know, Twitter paid 10% of their equity for Smise back in the day, which is which is crazy.

What can can venture as we know it today survive even in a low M&A environment just because all that matters is the power laws or does it make things a lot you know the power law it has survived for 10 years because you got it you you had a period of zer and then you had I think for me a 10 years is like one fund cycle if if you're lucky but but I think it created momentum of liquidity for a moment and I this der of M& liquidity after 8 years of very minimal M&A.

Um, do I think VC needs M&A as a like secondary channel for exits? Yes. I I think 15 years into my career that was like a bet I've been mostly wrong on um is that there would be a lot of old companies buying new companies. I think AI might be a catalyst for that forcing function, right?

If if you are not able to buy software, you might have to buy companies to modernize. Yeah, it's it's super interesting like playing back some of the other Facebook acquisitions like they bought control labs. Do you remember this? It's a wristband that could uh basically read your mind.

And so uh if you if you pinched your fingers, it would pick up on the electrical signals and be able to put that into the computer and the VR face.

uh they acquired control labs uh between 500 500 million and a billion and this was when was this 2019 I guess so it's been six years they still haven't commercialized that technology but they're going to in the new Orion uh smart glasses and so just so much they have John it's it's it's in the iPhone when you squeeze it they it's like give John more of this dopamine he likes it the iPhone is made by Apple I just don't know that just want to clarify But but but but then uh Facebook was trying to buy a VR fitness app and they got blocked and everyone was like it's so dumb because like uh the FTC said that that that they were creating a monopoly in the VR fitness industry and everyone's like what are you talking about?

There is no VR fitness industry. But at the same time when you think about Facebook's really or Meta's really long-term horizon if they can sit on labs for six years before seeing any sort of economic they're still not even close. Um what what could that have te what could that team gone on to do?

Maybe they could have done something cool. I don't know. Facebook from 2005 to 2015 50 acquisition. 50. Wow. 50. Right. These are real. And some of them were aqua hires or some of them were were the version of Aqua Hire that was aligned to like future you know value at Facebook.

Um I think same lesson came in throughire too. Right. There was um hot potato Justin Schaefer's early company. There was a bunch of early acquisitions that were team acquisitions when it made sense and those people became important at Facebook.

And I think when you look at today's modern companies, they were not built off of that same talent acquisition, the same same way to build a company. I think you might get back to that because not every one of these companies is going to succeed.

But if the value of the ones that are succeeding skyrockets quick enough, your equity becomes attractive to a company that is looking for a home. And I think that's a real alignment. You talked earlier about companies potentially buying brand uh from all the companies that you've invested in.

Brand in the early days doesn't matter. You know, usually when you guys are writing a check, brand if somebody's trying to sell you on how great their brand is, it probably means there's other fundamental issues with the company like the team's not, you know. Anyways, brands take a long time to build.

Uh I'm curious if you have any framework framework for evaluating whether or not a team has the capability of building a brand that is going to resonate over time just because brand can originate from so many different places right you can build a great brand because you ship quickly.

You can build a great brand because you have good taste you know and your marketing assets are I think brand is this this big amorphous word that when applied to specific spaces means something totally different.

the brand that cursor has built their audience and how they've gone about building that is totally not related to a DTOC you know we're we're early investors in like Warby Parker Warby Parker is is a version of a consumer product brand um I think in software capital helps I think there's this this two-sided thing one is users and a community however that fills in within your company a community can be like a B2B startup up building customer momentum where the customers are telling other people to to sign up.

But I think it's users and and the community of users sort of spreading the word. Um, and I think in this moment in time, capital helps. If you're telling this like every six months fundraising story, you're creating momentum for your company that is different than your competitive set.

And so if you can go out into the market and say, "Our valuation doubles up every six months. were able to raise from top tier investors. You're able to hire differently, right?

You're you're when you're going to pitch in a competitive hiring process and you're able to show that this is the rocket ship, uh, that you're trying to tell that that potential hire that it is.

I think those things matter and I think a brand in all those components can compound to make you know some version of um I don't think too big to fail but uh sort of you're you're getting you know made the the winner. You have a lot of people that care about your success. Yeah. And and you're getting made the winner.

You're the default winner. You're at some point you're not fired for picking that company if it gets to be that you know big of a name. No one's fired today for picking Salesforce.

And I think when you're trying to challenge a company that no one's fired for picking, you have to really be a unique outlier to get somebody to risk their job in essence by picking your company. We're an investor in the the 8-year overnight success of Clay. Um, can you do your sound effect, please? Which one?

I mean, we got a lot of them. Just do them all. Thank you. Congratulations on overnight. That one.

Uh but you know Clay today uh 8 years in is starting to to do a go to market motion that starts to compete with some of your entrenched software players and I think that it takes a lot of product build and that's been in the past 10 years something that's been hard to do as a startup because you're not funded for these five sevenyear builds of software and I think uh you know as the intercom founder said if you can develop software where automatically or through uh you know a combination of your engineers and AI uh the the scale of product that you can build will happen a lot more rapidly.

Tell us a story of uh meeting and investing in TJ back in the day since he's coming on next. Good one. TJ. Yeah. Um I met TJ. Must have been a rascal back then I think. I think Skype to be fair. It wasn't Zoom. It had like it wasn't like Google Meets. It was pretty all that. So, it had to be Skype.

Um, and I was in the room with I believe TJ's like first employee, not TJ and not Elliot. So, it's like the first employee was physically in the room and he Skyped in luckily TJ. Um, and TJ and I really liked each other and but we didn't meet for like four or five months after um we Skyped and and I invested.

So, it's been a journey. Um, you know, we were we were the first investor in Pilpac in that original um he was in Tech Stars in Boston and that's how I met him. Um, thank you. It really feels good when you get the sound of that emotion. You got to work for it. Brings the energy level like way up as a VC.

It takes a long time to get um feedback and this is like reinformed. All you had to do is do something 10 years ago. Exactly. Uh so I appreciate that 12 years ago. Yeah, it's a thankless job venture capital.

So yeah, and and then you know watching TJ's journey and then uh tricking TJ into becoming a VC, it's probably a point of you know pride in my career uh and watching him thrive being able to ski, golf, and invest all at the same time. Uh which is comp to do it. Do it. No, it's funny with TJ.

We got to I got to ask him about this when he comes on, but it's like I don't know if I've met I've met uh anyone who's a VC who hates VC broadly as much as TJ. Like he seems like he has like a disdain for pride in that. Yeah, he has a pride in how how much disdain he has for the for the profession.

But I I think part of it he gets some ability to kind of laugh at the industry given that you know he got to a billion dollar outcome in lesser less billion dollar outcome less than five years.

He knows something about an industry that no one else knows about and his company got to a billion dollars of revenue in less than 10 years. And so I think you get the ability to kind of just laugh at powering Amazon's pharmacy like it's still a it's still a product in the world.

And I I think his ability to have seen the inside of one of the biggest companies in the world and then operate there, which he also found funny.

Um I think gives him this unique insight as an investor to really have a top down at the healthare system and a bottoms up as you built a startup by competing against the world and then sitting inside Amazon, you got to see um sort of the the world operate at scale. I think it's a unique perspective.

So, uh, did you see Business Insiders new list of the 100 best early stage venture capital? Dream in 26 to be on that list. Do you feel like you got snubbed? What? What happened? They they went to him and they said, "David, we know you're really number one, but you got to pay us seven figures.

" Well, it was ultra competitive this year as I don't know if you saw, but uh, Peter Teal just barely made the list. He's at 67. Uh, Mark Andre didn't make it at all. So, you're in reasonable company. I I mean it's a data driven list and nothing is more truthful and venture than data.

So it's hard to argue that you know random pitch book and crunchbased data isn't the correct outcome for rankings. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of snubs on here but a lot but a lot of great people.

It's it's sad because I got this inbound I got this inbound spam email saying that I could buy a plaque for being on the list and then I I didn't make the list. Oh, you didn't make the list, but I bought the plaque already. Oh, damn. Yeah. I mean, I'll I'll I'll share this with you.

Uh, this year we're thinking about doing our own version of the Midas list of the top 100 venture capitalists, not just seed, across everything. On what? Uh, ju just the top venture capitalist, TBPN's version of the Midas list, but what's the criteria? Vibe.

Uh, well, I mean, it we're putting out a simple call if you want to be included in the list. Packages start at 100K and go up from there. So you can reach out to salestbn. com if you're interested in being included.

If you're a venture capitalist and you're listening, we'd love to include you in the list of the best venture capitalists. Uh we we we accept we accept credit card and wire transfer. So and everybody was worried about how you guys are going to monetize it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

We figured it out really quick. I mean year year one you cracked the code. Yeah. I mean this is like the old like million-dollar web page. Do you remember that where you pay $1 per pixel? What was that? You accept equity. We'll take a stake in your management company. Yeah.

We'll take a stake in your life's work to to be on the list for this year. Secondary market, too. There's a lot of opportunities here potentially. Potentially. Anything else top of mind, Jord? Oh, I was going to go through the the timeline. Uh and uh so I have a post here. I want you to react to it, David.

I thought we were going to go through the top hundred one. No. Yeah, the top. We'll go Yeah. And you can go long short every you can go on the record and go long short every single the top 100. That'd be great for your brand.

It's a list of the best venture capitalists and Mark Andre didn't make the list but Mark Beni off did and I don't think anyone from Sequoia did either. Oh no. Not that I read Andrew for anything and thought about it. Sean and Andrew, you got Albert has never funded any good seed companies to be fair.

Yeah, notoriously bad at seed. Those guys just can't make a buck, you know. Those guys just just uh scraping pennies through the couch cushions to to pay. I don't think anyone at first round made it. It was a great list. So, it's great. It's great. It's great. Yeah. I mean, he's not bitter or anything. Okay.

I have I have a post from M. Stanfield. I'm just going to read it out loud to you. Uh, David. Me. I'd like to invest in this brewery. SEC. No, dummy. You're not an accredited investor. Me. Cool. I guess I'll just teach myself some double broken wing butterfly trades by watching Tik Tok. SEC. Yeah. I mean, for sure.

It's your money. Do whatever. What do you uh what do you think about that? Yeah. Yeah. What do you think about accredited investor laws? Oh, I didn't know where this is. I thought we were gonna that I have to fund a brewery. We funded a nicotine company. So felt like in the same same vibe.

Um accredited investor look like I I you know I I think the challenge of having of having credited investor rules is that you have it in one area of like the country and not in everything.

And that's the challenge to me right you you have like scams left and right throughout the economy and yet in this one area it's like no there are a lot of rules here. And so I think that feels unfair.

So to me, you're either going to sort of clean up the ability to invest in things across the board or you should have sort of everybody operate at your own risk. And just like a level playing field generally, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so I feel like that's the issue.

Um and then there's all these like gray areas of like getting around it which feel like you're not holding uh the bar properly.

So I I don't know just what's your reaction to the new news that Elizabeth Holmes is advising her husband's AI medical testing startup which can conduct diagnostic tests using a small sample of blood from prison.

I mean we were saying this when we when we I think she's so when she was in the news we were saying like the real way to be vindic vindicated is not just get out of prison is to come back run back the same product but actually win. It's real. Yeah. I my first question is what are we going to do with the blood right?

Like what? Like where does it go? What happened? Like the collecting is step one, but then what? So yeah, I think send it to prison. She should be doing the titration in her prison cell, right? Is this about like the young boy plasma thing in that direction? Yeah. Um anyway, uh what do you think?

Clara's CEO says his pursuit of cost cutting fueled by advancements in AI has gone too far. When you have a port po port code that's later stage that says they're, you know, cutting everyone due to AI, do you get do you get worried? Are they No, I think there's there's like a timing and sequencing here, right?

When you overstate the present, uh, you may be also underestimating how soon the future will be here. And so, uh, it feels like a a nice midcycle story for the eventual outcome. uh as you guys alluded to before, but it like does 90 plus percent of customer service get solved by AI for sure.

When you look at like ecom customer service generally, like 65% of the questions are when when am I getting my item that feels like you can automate that, right? And then you start going to the next chunk of things. And there's like 3 to 10% that feels like you actually need to to think about how you respond here.

And even in those situations, it's typically some version of a save. And so I think as you get to customer service across most companies, that becomes relatively uh automatable sooner versus later.

I just the idea that we need to announce that we're going to let go of a lot of people because AI is magical today uh might be a stretch. Uh you thoughtfully uh informed us that the iPhone is made by Apple. Uh do you have any uh do you have any reaction to the news of the new Apple products that are launching?

They're potentially a curved iPhone without any cutouts in the display. Uh new Meta Raybands competitors, uh new Apple glasses and then Apple intelligence developments. Are you uh are you the type of person that lines up to buy the latest Apple product? Do you drive for a couple weeks? Big line big line guy over here.

I want to stay I want to stay focused on being a VC smart home right you you didn't mention the screen that goes in your house which I think for every VC is just like a pipe dream to have screens everywhere and so that is another one of the products that is rumored to be coming out uh a new Apple TV we're at like six years later uh new Apple TV so there's a lot of a lot of opportunity here to spend a lot of money uh the foldable phone confuses me yeah I don't know.

I I don't need to fold it. Well, I I feel like there's a iPhone. There's like a baby iPhone for little hands. Then there's the big iPhone for bigger hands. Then there's a little iPad. Yeah. And a big iPad. Yeah.

So, the foldable phone is like you Well, have you seen the demos in China where it's three phones stacked together to the size of one phone and you unfold and you get a tablet? That's pretty cool, right? So then I have a a iPad. Yeah.

But in your pocket I just want to be able to, you know, you can put a newspaper in your back pocket and you pull out the newspaper and you un you pull it out. That could be just kind of a cool bit. This is This is interesting.

They said Apple's pushing into robotics which will include a tabletop machine with a robotic arm that would feature. What does the arm do? I don't know. Assume it can like juggle for you or something. Yeah. Or it gets you or it gets you beverages.

I feel like that's the other, you know, VC pipe dream, the robot that just brings you stuff. Yeah, beer me, Siri. I like it. Anyway, this was a fantastic conversation. Thanks so much. He's going to hang out for a minute to say hi to TJ. I just want to see what TJ's facial hair looks like today.

I have one more I have one more post from a former uh employee and and a friend of mine, uh Josh Harris. He says, "American oligarchs be like, this has over 100,000 likes, by the way. American oligarchs be like, "Oh, I founded Blubber. " European oligarchs be like, "Yeah, my family owns the trees.

" Have you have you found much success uh on the LP side in Europe? Do you do you go Josh Harris from Apollo? What's that? Is this Josh Harris from Apollo or No, Josh Harris. Uh he was an ER at um Paradigm and his I was afraid of I was afraid of Apollo, so I don't want to say anything. Just clarifying.

You don't mess with private equity people ever. A real real cardinal role. Um, we uh we have a great mostly uh domestic LP base. Okay. Damn. I punch it. No tree. Big tree. The tree. TJ at Matrix. Yeah. Never know. Big big big tree LP base. Yeah. Big trees.

I talked to a lot of DCs that are raising new money from LPs in Pyongyang. Getting North Korea. The final frontier. frontier and Antarctica. That's why they're there in the summer. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Anyway, let's bring in TJ and uh and we can all chat. Uh hopefully the the layout works here. TJ, how you doing?

Here we go. Good. He made it. He finally made it. Let's hear it from the crowd. Yay. Welcome to the stream, TJ. How you doing? Oh, it's great to have you. It's great to be here. Uh and uh David just had to join too. He's just so proud of you.

Uh not only the company that you built, but your transition to venture capital, which is the highest and best use of anybody, any genius's time. We were trying to assign credit for your success. And we kind of broke it down like 80% David, 20% you. Does that sound fair? Yeah. I mean 7030 maybe. 7030. Okay. Yeah.

Got to give yourself a little credit. A little more credit. Uh, how's your uh, what was your first impression of David back in the day? I got to ask. You know, it was pretty good.

I talked first time I met Dave was a phone call where I'd already told like five investors the round was closed and he somehow weasled his way into the round anyway. So, he must have been made a pretty good first impression. I think it was Skype. Was it phone?

Uh, well, I was like at some conference and we kind of met at Skype on a on a Skype, but then we actually talked like the next day on the phone and that's when that happened. Mhm. You remember that? I do. I feel like your memor is more shot than that. Yeah, I know. I know. It's a rare It's a rare memory for me.

Thanks for Thanks for letting that stick. Is that important for you? Yeah. Jump in here on drug prices, get this conversation started. Be very exciting.

Were you um my last question for David, were you worried that that TJ would, you know, sell secondary at the B and get too caught up in Porsches and um and that's in that whole world or did you know at the B and I bought an E63 wagon so it didn't There we go. There we go. There we go.

I was worried about TJ still my daily driver. Actually, I still drive that car. So I was worried about TJ selling drugs at the bee. Honestly, that was that was amazing. Yeah. That's great. Thanks for having me on, guys. Congratulations for you. Cool. Uh yeah, TJ, take us through it. What was your reaction to the news?

Uh how would you actually summarize what the proposal is because a lot of these press releases get written kind of aggressively and then the actual implementation is very different. How are you processing the news and and and what's your early take