Emily Sundberg on WWDC fashion, the Substack competitive landscape, and the death of the celebrity brand era

enterprise. Really? Isn't that an incredible line? That feels like a line we would use. How you doing? Welcome to the show. What's up, everyone? I'm happy to be here. Everyone, all two of you. Yes, all of us. We have our intern here.

We're going to You know, uh Emily being a guest, I've gotten more random texts about it. People being like, "Oh, you should ask her this. Oh, you should ask that. people have uh paying attention. Is that a Google shirt? Exciting. That's scary. That's amazing. Well, what what is your shirt? Let me see. Did you stand up?

I was at I was at WWDC on um on Monday and Yeah, you were you were reporting on what the really old folks are thinking about Apple, right? Is that is that what they said? Yeah, I saw backlash. They uh the people over at Puck said that um that Apple should have invited younger people to cover it. Wow.

Well, I'm a little little too old. Yeah. Before we go to Is it true that Tim Cook begged for a selfie? Oh, yeah. Yeah, totally. No, that was that was really fun. That was cool. I didn't expect that to happen. Yeah. What was your reaction? It feels like a lot of the liquid ga glass hate has blown over by now.

People like most. Yeah. I think like sitting there in real time reading Twitter and seeing people's reactions uh it seemed like people weren't excited and wanted more Apple intelligence updates. But that night I went to Have you guys ever been to WWC? No, never.

I went to one of those like ancillary um engineer and developer barbecues like an hour away in an Airbnb with like 30 guys who who build apps and they were all really excited.

So I think they're the people who it's for and they're the people who are going to ultimately be using these updates and they seemed thrilled about it.

So yeah, it was a developer conference and they actually announced a lot of exciting things around developers and it also seemed like they seated some territory in the AI world that could potentially enable more AI apps to be owned by independent developers which is a huge huge boon for the ecosystem.

Did you get to press Tim Cook on the photos app at all? Are you a photos app enjoyer? I had about 14 seconds with him and Will before me. So, it was like it not a lot of time. Next year. Next year. Next year. Um, awesome. I I have a bunch of other random random questions to go through.

What be I want to ask about the state of Substack, but before we get into that, what is the state of the New York City uh election this mayor? We've been kind of covering it. our corner of the internet is not super excited about the potential of a of a socialist mayor. What's actually happening on the ground?

Yeah, our friends that Photoshop beard job that felt more just like like a printing error. Honestly, to me, it didn't seem like they did a ton of pre-processing. Ink dripping down longer. I didn't see it as longer.

I saw it more as just like when you reduce the resolution so much like like the the the the gaps between the hairs kind of blur altogether and it makes the beard look thicker. I wasn't I wasn't fully like someone went in there superstitious with the mare stuff. Okay. Well, explain that.

Oh, I don't I don't want to talk about scared. Okay. Okay. You don't want to jinx it. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Your your single endorsement could actually shift the election. interviewed um I interviewed four of them. I interviewed Quuomo. I interviewed Zoran, Lander, and Stringer. Mhm. Um for the newsletter last week.

It was really fun. Oh, cool. Cool. What's the next question? I want to talk about Substack, how you're seeing it evolve. It feels like it just continues to have a moment. Uh you're dominating the platform. At least that's what it looks like. We're not super active there, but what what is the state of things?

Yeah, I've been on I've been writing on Substack for for five years now. So, um I definitely had a I think I had a little bit of first mover advantage there. Like I I know the platform so well.

And I think even just understanding the tools and like what works well on the heat map of my own audience has been super helpful for me. Um, and for anybody listening to this who doesn't know, like I write a newsletter every single day. So the opportunities for people to discover me are are a lot higher.

Um, but I think that's something that's interesting about Substack is that just because you have a large following somewhere else doesn't mean it's necessarily going to carry over to a newsletter.

Like yeah, the inbox seems like such precious real estate to people and who they who subscribers allow into that feels a little bit more intentional. So, it's not like you're going to just follow a thousand people like you do on Instagram. So, you have to be really good to make it.

And then you have to Sorry, can I curse on this? We don't curse, but but you're welcome if you if you have to be really excellent at at content and something that I do. Um, I have one of the more active chats on Substack like across the whole platform.

Um, and I'm in conversation with my readers constantly daily, and that's a lot of work as well. Um, so the state of things on Substack, I'd say it's getting pretty competitive. You're seeing a lot of people jump over there and maybe try to make it, but aren't necessarily making money yet.

Um, they also don't have an advertising integration like Beehive or even Twitter or YouTube do. So, if you're going to sell ads, you're you're on your own for that or you have to get an agency. Um, yeah. What specifically do you want to know? Yeah.

No, I'm cur I'm curious like specifically specifically like how much some of the new social features are driving growth. Is that like a primary driver at this point or or would you do you still think audio and video?

Well, like all of the new social features, you know, I I just see like a lot of people are growing based on like recommendations in like like basically like cross promotions or collabs. So, yeah. So, so for me like So, yeah. Yeah.

I was um I was in DC a few months ago and I met with somebody who who's invests in this space and he was asking me like why don't you consider like doing your own thing off platform and and building away from them and there's a few I used to think about that a lot more and I used to do that math a lot more.

And I showed him my analytics on my dashboard because you can see how many people are discovering you from um within the app and within their ecosystem. And he was like, "They have you like you can't leave. You're you're stuck there. " And it's not a bad gig.

Like they take 10% of what I make, which I think is totally fair considering how they probably drive more than 10% of growth, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. They're probably driving consistently 10% growth and so that's totally that the maths out just fine. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

When I when I when I think about Substack, I think of peak Substack for me was like pre20 like that that era. When I think about when I was like reading multiple substacks a day. Yep. And now Feed Me is the actually only newsletter that breaks into the important tab of my Gmail.

And then, you know, there's a bunch of other substacks that are just kind of lost in the mix. I've just been trying to get a a read on it. But if you are going to be dependent on a social platform or any type of media platform, Substack is a great the friendliest one.

Take your newsletter, take your take your Stripe account if you ever need to. Like you're so my subscriber list. I get to sell my own ads, which is going very well. And when things break, they fix them. So that's great. Great. Um, talk about uh you had a fairly viral post, the tech guy in a hoodie stereotype is dead.

Oh yeah. you were at WWDC and seeing a bunch of different uh different uh labels and brands being worn. Does that surprise you? Does it not surprise you? What was your reaction broadly? There's this morning where as a whole Well, Will Welch was there, so clearly there's something Will Welch is the editor of GQ.

or something happening, you know, just with his spirit in the in the air at the people always think of iOS developers as being, you know, at the foremost of fashion. So, you should always be there if you're running Yeah.

I think I assumed more of them to look like the guys who work at the Apple store at my mall on Long Island or something. Um, and it was impressive. I mean, like guys looked good. I wouldn't say capital S suiting, but like fits. Um, there were a lot of cool sneakers.

I think that a few years ago it would have been more New Balance. I think that like the Steve worshippers are sort of aging out a little bit. Now there's these younger guys who probably are seeing that moment as like one of their big trips of the year and probably wanted to break out some fun outfits.

Saw a lot of good sneakers. Saw a lot of big watches. Saw like a Nautilus on a guy. There we go. There we go. Was he did he have an Apple Watch on the other wrist or was that just fully committed? A lot of Apple watches also, but a lot of nice watches.

Um, which like I don't know a lot of people don't wear nice watches in their cities anymore. So, well, you can't in New York because it will be taken from you very quickly, right? Exactly. But it's safe. Yeah. At the at the donut. Um, do you ever get tempted to angel invest? I'm sure you get asked constantly.

Do I get tempted to angel invest? I get asked, but that's not something that tempts me. No, why not? My business is kind of my main focus right now. Yeah, that's good. That's good. That's good. Are we Are we post peak celeb brand? Are we post peak celeb brand? Yeah. Are we on the down slope? I think I think I think so.

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So brands like what do you think the interaction between celebrities and consumer? I think everybody knows the formula too well now which is that the celebrity isn't actually going into the office every day and like that illusion has broken, right?

So you can wear the suit on the stage at the conference and do the Forbes thing, but people are sort of understanding that they're not the operators and they're just sort of like a paid person to have their name on a brand, right? Yeah.

Um, and I think the other thing happens all the time where like the founder becomes a celebrity after they start the company. Yep. Um, which is more interesting to me than like a famous person hiring a bunch of people to do their work for them and and getting paid for it. Yeah.

Do you think we move back to So I I I I think of the celeb corporation collaboration eras like you used to just pay a celebrity to appear in your Super Bowl ad and it would be like a million dollars in cash.

Then we got to the point all the way on the other side of the spectrum where celebrities were commanding 30 40 50% equity grants in businesses that were built entirely around their brands. to your point, people are catching on that that means that yeah, they have a huge economic stake.

They're going to be talking about all the time, but they're not really driving the product forward in any meaningful way.

We could go back to just pay for a celebrity appearance in an ad, or we could move forward into something like what I've seen Saquon Barkley doing where he is essentially just angel investing in these companies. And yes, he'll appear in the ads, but he's not saying he's building the company.

He's very transparent about that. He will partner with them, but he's equity aligned, but just like any other investor.

And so I'm wondering if there will be a boom in that in that kind of paradigm or that model, or if we'll just go back to um you know, companies and startups just being more comfortable writing a $400,000 check for a celebrity to appear in an ad. It's cash and you know what it is. Yeah.

I don't I don't see the ladder like being becoming a big thing. I I just feel like it's such a specific kind of company that has that kind of marketing budget and it's also really risky to invest in celebrities and influencers now because people are so volatile.

Um I've definitely seen more of the angel investor in in like hot girl Instagram bios like Oh, sure. Angel investor. Interesting. And I think it's like a flex, you know? It's like I'm I'm I'm also a businesswoman. Um so I think that's already happening.

Like there's like a soft boom of that of of people getting the opportunity to do that and basically only having one canned cocktail in their in their house and not because they're necessarily getting paid but because they quietly invested or not so quietly invested and they're able to sort of flex a portfolio of investing and that's like something they do besides whatever other things they do.

Um, but there was that um, Alex Earl Poppy deal last year where she was she was drinking it a lot and I guess her dad who sounds like a pretty savvy business guy uh, negotiated for her to get equity in the brand.

So that's sort of like a prime example of that where she wasn't talking around talking going around saying that she was an angel investor but I guess she was. Yeah. Well, yeah. Poppy had had a stacked cap table of various personalities, celebrities, athletes, etc. Most private equity founders, growth equity firms, too.

But yes, um where uh give us a temp check on wellness right now? Are we are we past peak wellness in in many ways? People are doing more wellnessy things, but at the same time, being unwell feels popular. I did um I did like a a chat with my readers the other day about alcohol consumption.

And people are all over the map with that. There are people who are like, "I'm 35. I haven't had a drink in 10 years. I'm perfectly happy. Life is great.

" Um, and then there's definitely a decent cohort of Oh, somebody said um that people are who have been sober for years are kind of like strategically or strategically drinking now, which was interesting to me. We strategically drink. We drink. The king of wellness right now is GLP1s.

Like that's sort of the most exciting thing happening.

Is that getting wrapped in different brands right now to appeal to different uh cohorts or I just think it's changing people's chemical composition and changing the way that they think and work out and eat and socialize and that's very interesting to me what that what do you think that brands Yeah.

Do you think that brands are already being, you know, the the initial concern was that, you know, fast food brands were cooked because people just were going to eat less.

But then there's a downstream effect if if New York guries are micro doing GLP1s and then maybe they're like, I'm not going to go to Pilates today because, you know, I'm already, you know, happy with what I look, you know, whatever. Uh, are you hearing any about any kind of like downstream business post GLP1?

Um, I don't think the Pilates industrial complex is affected. They're sort of the new weed store to me. They're everywhere. The Pilates studios, it's like people are buying these cheap made in China reformer machines, setting them up, and just like running crazy Pilates businesses.

So, I don't think that's going to be affected anytime soon. Um, because even if you get really thin, you still want to be shredded. Shredded. Got to be shredded. But also with like fast food, I'm pretty sure people on GLP ones are still eating it. They're just not eating a lot of it. Like throwing it away.

It was a celebrity that said the other day that he was just eating eating through it. He was just basically powering through it. He was powering through. It was like I'm like convinced that my hunger would overpower it. But that's amazing. Um what what about other downstream effects from GLP1s?

I was talking to somebody who was like they wanted to start a protein water company because they felt like with the GLP-1 boom people would be eating less. They needed to supplement you.

Uh aside from the brands that have just wrapped GLP1 in different landing pages, are there other kind of winners from the GLP-1 boom that you've seen adjacent?

Somebody told me the other day that um like uh all these protein foods are not healing foods and it it changed the way that I think about people eating all this protein. Um any other trickle down things? Yeah.

I'm sure there will be some sort of like therapy blowback like people needing more therapy, people women being anxious. What's the state of Maja right now? Are people building new businesses around that or they're mostly just old line businesses that are beneficiaries of Maha? You guys follow Ballerina Farm?

Oh yeah, I have just opened a little store wherever she lives in the Midwest. Um, she feels very Maja aligned. Yeah, they like raw milk. They like farm stuff. Uh, she's an interesting business person though. I love Is any of that breaking through in New York?

It feels like a lot of the a lot of the actual products that are majal aligned feel very New York aligned and yet the politics of the products are could not be more disperate. You're right. It's so political. It's like there was a store in New York that was selling raw milk out of one fridge.

It was like one of these and it probably wasn't a right-wing store, right? I mean I I how I don't know but Yeah. But like but they didn't present as like oh yes mega milk. They presented as like rich women who are $20 smoothies. So like fall all over the place on the spectrum honestly.

Um maybe but I don't think they sell it anymore because that's like bad for business if enough people call you out on it. Um wow. Even like there's this guy at the farmers market, this Amish guy who used to sell raw milk and he's not there anymore and I don't where he went. Big big milk took him out. Yeah, someone did.

Brutal. Uh where where do you get uh what's the the the most significant part of your scoop machine? Is it is it readers giving you tips? Is it walking around New York? Is it a is it a combination? One of your readers uh uh a asked me to ask you that. I'm sure people of course they want to know where that is.

I have some really good readers. That's the IP. That's the IP. Yeah.

I I have some really good readers who are super loyal with sending me scoops and they could send them to New York Magazine or the New York Times or or Puck or Semaphore or whatever and they send them to me and I'm super grateful for that and um we have a good thing going.

I also have an anonymous tip line which is always I think people get a little confused about what falls qualifies pitches PR pitches insane gossip PR pitches aren't the bad the bad stuff is like um a politician walking out of a 3M screening of baby girl alone like I don't that's like let them run news yeah that's pretty funny though and then I go out a lot like I I go out four or five times times a week.

I go to parties, I go to dinners, I meet people, I meet readers. Um, yeah. So, I it's like my life I feel sort of like a machine right now, but it's working really well, so I can't um get keep oiling the machine then. Well, congratulations on building. Last question. Do uh do copycats bother you?

I'm sure you've had hundreds of people by now be like, I'm going to make feed me for XYZ or Feed Me for that or just like blatant do they do they get under your skin? Uh they used to, but data is a very calming force in my life right now and especially in my business. And the numbers calm calm me down.

Numbers don't lie. Yeah, it's fantastic. There we go. We're hitting the size gone. Well, congratulations on everything and thanks for stopping. Thanks for coming on. You're always welcome. Yeah, we'd love to have you back and talk more. Cheers. Talk to you soon.

Uh up next, we have Leonard Heim uh calling in from the RAN Corporation. We're going to talk about uh AI models. We're talking about we got crazy crazy range today. Crazy range today. It's a it's a whirlwind tour. Uh wait, let's check on Tyler. How's it How you doing? I'm done. He's done. The Fury has been assembled.

I think my final time was somewhere around hour 15. So double hour. Hour 19. So yeah, I mean pretty shameful for uh I think it looks good. I mean yeah, send send the electrolytes my way. Okay, I'll start chilling. I think Dylan grabbed the cup and some water if uh if you guys want to grab it.

Let's get some electrolytes going up in here. Very beautiful model. It looks great. Yeah, it's really cool. Very cool. I'm glad we have that in the studio now. Uh well, enjoy your horse electrolytes. Uh hope you have a rest a good rest of the stream.

Uh we will hop on with our next We'll check back in with for a for a taste uh taste review. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But when we finish this next interview. Uh anyway, welcome to the studio, Leonard. How are you doing today? Let's bring in Leonard and chat about artificial intelligence and