Carl Pei: smartphone hardware is stagnant, AI will replace apps with a single OS layer

shout out. Uh, let's bring in our first There he is. First studio walk-in. First studio walkin. Let's go. Welcome to the stream, Carl. How you doing? Welcome. This is fun. Welcome. Thank you. How you doing? Great to have you here. We haven't done this much before. No, we've had a few people in in studio, done a few.

Usually when we're in person, we're on the road, but good to have you come here. Uh uh would you mind kicking us off with an introduction on yourself, the company? Uh yeah, my name is Carl. Um I have a company called Nothing. We're the only new smartphone company to have emerged in the last 10 years. Yeah.

Um I felt like tech got really boring. Yeah. Like I was a big big tech fan. I got the latest iPhones um all the time. I sat up to watch the keynotes. Yeah. I was based in Europe, so the time zone wasn't always the best. Um but in the recent like five years, I haven't done that anymore.

like every iteration is pretty much the same as a previous one and I wanted to do something about it. So what did you do to spice it up? What was the first the first feature and then walk me through all the other features? Please follow I want we um show us. So we're we're in a very big industry, right? Like 1.

2 billion smartphones are sold every year. Yeah. So we're not trying to reimagine the category. We're trying to find our niche. So we started with industrial design. So if you look at our products Yeah. they look pretty different. Totally. Before actually starting to um make products, we made a design book.

We took inspiration from movies, from uh architecture, from furniture design and we created this little uh mood board and then we based all our designs uh on that. So if you look at our different products, these are our headphones. This is a smartphone. Yeah.

You can immediately tell even if you don't see the logo that it's from the same company. Totally. Yeah. So design is how we started. Um, if you ask our users why they buy our products, design is number one reason. And then lately, we've been working more on the software side. So, it is funny.

A cell phone should be the ultimate personal accessory. Yet the that but yet they've all converged onto the same exact form factor. It's so funny because John and I have the same exact exact same phone and we get we get mixed up all the time. I grab it, he grabs mine. Yeah.

I mean h how much do you think we are at like the end of history for uh differentiating on like quantitative specs because for a long time it was like okay I need to go with this one because it has just a faster processor but that kind of disappeared and then there was software lock in you want the blue bubbles or whatever but if we truly get to the end then we're going to get like every watch tells the time the same people spend a lot of money on certain watches that say something about them right same thing with cars um but what's your view on like just staying on the frontier?

How how stagnant is the frontier? We're pretty much at the end in terms of hardware innovation. Like we all have the same suppliers. We buy the same screen screen, same processor, same battery.

Um and and you don't think that there's going to be any sort of like crazy breakthrough where like this happened with the with the Apple Vision Pro where you know uh Mark Zuckerberg was was certainly like doing everything to stay on the frontier of VR headsets and then Apple allegedly does this crazy thing with their supplier where they're like you know that thing that you're making in the benchtop that costs like thousands of dollars for this screen with this pixel density.

Let's just pull this forward and just like eat that cost to just leapfrog everyone and have the best screen.

Now they now they made a bunch of other mistakes so the product didn't take off but they at least nailed it on the screen front and everyone agrees that the Apple Vision Pro has like the best like resolution at least in the of the modern VR headsets.

Uh so you don't think that there'll be like a oh wow the next iPhone has twice the battery life. They figured out something crazy. Uh not any anytime soon. And I would probably say that the first phase of the smartphone wars are over. Yeah. And Apple and Google won have the biggest platforms.

iOS has like a billion users. Android has three billion. But I believe that the next war is start is just beginning to uh to happen. Yeah. And that's going to be all about reimagining the operating system. The previous generation operating systems, they're very mature already.

Y but now with AI technology, I think we can build something really different. So yeah, how are you how are you thinking about partnerships? I mean, John John's probably said this 200 times on the show, but all he wants is better transcription. Siri, it's You know what we did?

Um I don't know if the people there can see it, but you can hold it up. Hold it up. If you hold this. Oh, wow. Now we're actually recording this meeting. Okay. Okay. Oh, and you see the waveform there. You see the waveform? You see the little uh red light blinking? That's a nice text.

And after the meeting, you can just have AI summarize the And and my question is, is that using a transformer-based uh transcription AI or is it using the old thing that gets every other word wrong? Uh we're using a model I think. I think we're using Whisper Plus Gemini. Okay. So, yeah, it's going to be fantastic.

Amazing. And for some reason, no one's thought to implement that in the old stuff.

And it and it's getting to a point where I'm like deeply frustrated with it because my my standard workflow for I need to send someone a text message this long is I open up the chat GPT app, I click the whisper button, I talk to it, then I copy it, then I then I paste it into my into my text message box because I don't trust the standard transcription in iOS by default.

It's very very frustrating. Um anyway, uh I want to talk about the second the second smartphone war that's coming. Who are going to who's going to be in that war? It feels like Apple and Google are going to continue to compete. You're going to be there.

It feels like Johnny IV and and Sam Alman and and the OpenAI team want to play in there. There's probably going to be other folks. I feel like they in in a lot of the kind of teaser content, it's really around uh saying like this is an additional device in your stack.

They're not going as far as to say we're going to fully replace the phone. Um why not just do try and do like an add-on or like a fourth device, third device. I mean most Apple people have like Apple watches, phones, the iPad, the computer, you know.

Uh for me like the smartphone is one of the best devices especially for applied AI because it's got all the distribution. 1. 2 billion are sold every year. We have it in our pockets every day. We charge it every day. We use it for 4 to 6 hours every day.

Yeah, it's got the distribution, but it also has has the data, right? We do so much on our phones. So that if we're going to build a really intelligent operating system, we need the distribution scale, but also the depth of data to create a really personalized experience for for each consumer.

Yeah, I do believe that in the next 10 years, we will all be carrying another sensor as well because sometimes the phone is in our pockets and we need another sensor to capture data for us. Uh I don't believe it's going to happen that quickly though. other sensors. Uh glasses, something we've been debating on the show.

One, one of the one of the challenges though is like you're walking around uh a lot of these, you know, the meta ray bands are like actual glasses, sunglasses. Are people going to be carrying multiple glasses that they're using differently throughout the day? There's I don't know what the form factor is going to be.

It might be glasses, it might be a pin, it might be a necklace. Um but I'm not super bullish that it's going to come in the next two, three years. What do you think of the idea of uh which is a which is a challenge to be clear if you're a seedstage company and you need to generate traction sales now.

So to pick a new form factor, you guys can almost from your position be like, well, we have the supply chain. We know we can build hardware. We can in some ways kind of see what how this this next device. Exactly. We built this machine, right?

Because making hardware is very tough, especially smartphones like from having an idea to actually shipping the product across like 40 countries, servicing the consumer. It's a machine. We're building the brand, building the fan base. Yep.

So, I think whenever a new form factor comes out, it's quite easy for us to quickly follow and uh have distribution worldwide. Well, what do you think about putting a camera on headphones? Um, we've seen like patents of other companies doing it. I'm just not sure what we would use it for.

It seems like the it seems like metaray bands are like we want a camera on your face and we will give you headphones for free via uh speakers that you can kind of listen on someone's uh call, but for the most part it's so it's so close and so localized that if someone's taking a call and the meta ray band's back there, we won't really hear what the other person's saying.

And then Apple, I think is the company you're referring you're like alluding to, uh, potentially has a patent and people have been kind of rumoring that uh, that the next version of AirPods Pro might have a camera on there and so then you could ask Siri, take a picture of that, tell me what it is.

Are you bullish on like the idea of visual intelligence? Because when I've walked around with the meta ray bands, I like in I like having an LLM at my fingertips, but I'm very rarely actually saying uh what is this can because I can look at it and it says yerba mate. It says mateina. It says mango.

I don't need an AI to do that. What I do need an AI to do on my glasses is tell me uh what's the history of yerba mate? And I can just ask that without taking a picture.

I can give it the I like I'll be walking around and some some idea will pop into my head and I'll be like I need to know the history of the state of California. Tell me when it was founded. Just give me the data. And it's nice to have an LLM at my fingertips, but I don't actually need the visual intelligence.

I I see it on my phone. I have the new I have the new button where I can pull out visual intelligence. I'm not a daily active user of any v visual intelligence project, but what are you are you bullish on it generally? Long-term I'm bullish.

I don't know exactly how it's going to play out, but for your use case today, we already have a chatbt voice integration in our earbuds. So, if you connect your uh this these headphones to our phone, you can just click a button to ask make a phone call with the chat voice. Yeah, that's good enough.

Yeah, good enough for now. Yeah. And is it is it is it do do you think that the technology industry broadly just so badly wants there to be a major platform shift that they just talk that that in some ways and and it makes sense in the context of like Zach, right?

Zuck has spent the last decades like basically being like uh you know very you know the platform layer just kind of messing with him right it's been a hassle so like it makes sense to to invest tens of billions of dollars to try to make sure that you have a a real you know horse in the next platform race but at the same time it's it's I think if if you love technology and you grew up the way that I think the three of us did you have this desire for there to be like because it would just be fun and exciting even even if you look at the phone, you're like, "Okay, this this might be this might be the dominant platform for the next 30 years still.

" Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm super excited to see what the industry builds. Like, we need people to try new things. Uh for us, we're still going to be focused on the phone because I believe there's so much cool software we can just build on on the phone. Yeah.

Of course, we're thinking about what comes next and we're prototyping, but it's not where our main focus is. Sure. Was was the changes to iMessage a uh a a catalyst for you guys? They they they allowed like red receipts and and deliver RCS. I I see it as a positive for us. Well, yeah, it has to be a positive.

I'm curious if it was Did it Did it make a material difference or No, because I think it's not just about the color of the text message or it's not just about the read receipts. It's actually about the color. It's about the color. The color is more important than the text. Way more important.

Really and that hasn't been solved. So yeah, they need to add that to the protocol. What what what color message do you want this to show up? And then all the Android users can there's so much social pressure of having the blue bubble.

Like my friend told me that at school his daughter's teacher is like handing out homework through AirDrop. Yeah. And his daughter was the only one who had to raise their hand and say, "I don't have an iPhone. Sorry. " Yeah. That's rough. Yeah. The social pressure is big.

uh on on the on the the the blue bubbles and the idea of like tech is almost a status symbol and a personal expression. Uh I I was joking earlier that, you know, if uh if OpenAI wants to build a phone, they're going to have to contend with the blue bubble issue.

They should do like gold bubbles or like you know the the Trump phone. I think Trump was launching a phone. Love your take on that at some point. But uh you know is there is there a hierarchy of colors that you should be thinking of? Is is blue intrinsically more welcoming than green?

I think because of how the ecosystem has played out, you just have to go blue if you want a chance. Sure. Yeah. So, we're on our phone business, we're not targeting the US very strongly just because of this reason. Like we can't see a way past the the blue bubble situation. Okay.

So, yeah, walk me through the landscape of your non US competitors then. Who who who's actually in in the market? What are the different markets that are interesting? Like where's the biggest opportunity?

If we're talking about building the next generation operating system, I think we got to put China aside because China will have its own ecosystem with its own players and the rest of the world will have its ecosystem. I believe you need you need data and distribution to be able to build the next OS.

So of course the smartphone companies will be contenders like Apple, Google, Samsung, and us. There's only four smartphone players outside of China today. Yeah. Um, but then there's other companies with a lot of data as well, like Meta for instance, or OpenAI. So, it could be any one of them.

Have you ever done like a postmortem deep dive on the on the Facebook phone? I had it. You had it back in the day. What? I I didn't even know it existed. Yeah. Wait, it was actually a real thing. It was real. It was built by HTC, I think. Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. I I I think Chimath worked on that project.

An interesting like bit of Silicon Valley lore. Um but uh I wonder I wonder what the like is the lesson there um differentiate more on design is that what you learned from that or is it more like uh price for performance? How like what are the different levers that you think you need to pull to pull something?

It's probably like PMF like people have certain expectations from a smartphone like great cameras, great battery like you can't underperform on any of those things. You got to be competitive with the latest iPhone, the latest Samsung, and then you can add your flare on top of it. Yeah.

But your flare cannot be significantly different from what people are used to. Yeah. Like I believe that in the future, for instance, that apps are going to go away. There's only one app on the phone. It's the operating system. Interesting. But we can't ship a phone without any apps. Like people love their apps.

So you can't have a future vision, but it's going to be like a step-by-step process to to getting there. And you got to bring the consumers along the way. Yeah.

Talk to me about uh how do you think uh I I can imagine where a world in which more and more of the app apps on that you use day-to-day are just eaten by the operating system. Something like weather for example. I don't love my weather app but I will open it up from time to time.

And there's a different scenario where I just you know transcribe what what's you know how's the weather going to be this afternoon and it just knows where I am and it just pops it up and says you know it's going to be 72 and sunny.

Um but then for other things like don't you think there'll be some networks that endure like for example like something like a Strava somebody's really into running um it's hard to imagine that that just merging with the operating system. So I see it slightly differently.

I think broadly there's two categories of apps like waste time apps and save time apps. Yeah, waste time apps are more like entertainment apps and the the save time apps are just utilities. I think the utilities are going to be really easy to replace in the beginning.

But when it comes to Netflix and Spotify and those like entertainment apps, it's going to take some more time, but eventually the OS will partner with apps and apps can still exist in a in a container, just not as a separate uh thing you launch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

What have you learned from the the history of like uh bloatware on smartphones? I worked at a startup years ago, maybe 15 years ago or something that was uh it was running a Siri competitor.

Uh and part of their business model was uh getting like BlackBerry to pay them to pre-install their app and it was like a pretty good deal for Blackberry and this in this case it was a pretty good piece of software and so it just it just obiated the need for the customer to go and click pay for $20 for this app.

At the same time, customers have notoriously been like, "Why do I have 75 Verizon apps on my phone? " And they get kind of uh they get kind of frustrated with that. Uh what's the good condition for that? What's the bad case? And then where does it go? Um the smartphone market is very big.

So on the lower end, everybody has a ton of bloatware. And I think that's okayish for the consumer because they get a better priced product that they couldn't afford otherwise.

But if you're operating on the high end and you have a ton of bloatware, then it's kind of weird because people are already paying a lot of money for your product to then have ads inside of the product. Yeah. So, that's kind of how I think about it. Yeah.

What what is the uh what are like the key break points for uh for phone pricing? Uh like internationally even internationally um probably around $300. Like that's the main main category. Yeah. Uh here in the US it's very different.

And it's like a barbell shaped market where the ultra premium takes a lot of share and the low low end like burner phones take a lot of share. Oh interesting. How much are burner phones in the US? Uh I don't have the numbers but probably like 20% of the market. Okay. Wow. Yeah.

I I I meant in terms of price like are we talking like $100? Yeah. Oh so really really cheap. Interesting. I big thing. How much capital would you need to deploy to be able to make a cheap phone high quality phone in the United States? Are we talking like you know manufacture locally? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Like would you need like $50 billion to set up all capex or opex problem? Well yeah the question is like if you have to basically like re not just do the assembly but like recreate all the sub suppliers.

It it's you start adding that up and and it gets I don't really know because we partner with a bunch of factories all over the world. So if we wanted to manufacture in the US we wouldn't know who to go to to partner with. Uh we do a lot of our manufacturing in India. Yeah.

And there we've seen that the government has been pretty successful. I think you know India is now the second site in terms of volume after China. Yeah. And they have incentives to uh like if you manufacture locally and export locally you get some cash back and I think that model really works.

So if the US is serious about this uh it's more of like the structural incentives that need to be set up for this to run. Yeah. Interesting. Um, what would it take to to Is there anyone trying to build like a Tata Nano of phones? Like something that's like smartphone level, not burner phone, but at like 75 bucks a pop.

They're they already exist. They do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like for Africa. Okay. Are they are they delivering on the promise at all? Yeah, they're doing a great job in Africa and other markets where people need cheap phones. You can get a smartphone for like 50 bucks now. Yeah. Interesting.

What about uh how do you guys think about have you integrated wallets for stable coins? Is that something that should happen at the operating system layer for a phone? I'm sure you've been I haven't thought too much about it for me. Like there's no real use case for crypto yet. No real use case for crypto.

What about store of value? Bro, we just haven't seen anything with real PMF yet. What about Bitcoin? That's PMF. Yeah, that's like one of the only things. I I get you. Yeah, you're you're probably not trying to sell that many phones into sanctioned countries where the citizens really want to get dollars on chain. Yeah.

Uh can you walk me through the relationship between manufacturers and telecommunications companies? I remember like years ago, this is the absolute last question because I know you got a heart out. You just got to hit the we got to make time for hit the gong. Yeah.

Um, every market is different, but in the US there's basically very little relationship between brands and the carriers because there's only three carriers and they're playing a user acquisition game against each other. So, their main way of acquiring users is not through selling unique hardware.

It's mainly the bundle, right? How much data do you get? Do you get free Spotify? Do you get Netflix? So for a small brand like us, there's basically no play with the carrier unless we build a ground swell of support with our community or have like really really innovative products.

I think our products are becoming more and more innovative and and fresh. But we probably need a couple more years before we have a product that's really different for the US. Very cool. Uh very cool and then we'll let you go. Well, do do we need a number? Can you give us anything? How how big is the company?

How many employees you got? How many phones have you sold? We're about uh 750 employees. Wow. We're 0. 2% market share globally. That's actually huge. Market is Congratulations. Thanks. We've done more than a billion in revenue and we're doing a billion this year. What? Okay. Okay. Okay.

Please hit the smack right behind you. That is very welld deserved. Give it a give it a congratulations and thank you so much for coming by. Really appreciate having you in person. This is fantast. Thanks so much. Um, great stuff. Really buried the lead there for sure.

Um, are we hopping straight on with uh with Garrett or we got 15 minutes? I guess we got 10 minutes. Yeah. Till the next one. Uh, I want to go through uh is there anything else you want to go through? I I like this.

Uh, in the uh in the how to spend it section of the Financial Times, we have a review of something we've been hunting for, which is the best hotel gyms in the world. There we go. There we go.

So, uh, if you've been to a hotel gym on chest day, you've probably been disappointed because many, it's hard to find a hotel with what is it bigger than 50 pound dumbbells 50 pound dumbbells.

And we believe, we haven't fully verified this, but we believe this is due to a uh a market failure in the hotel gym insurance market. And so, I think that uh there are two tiers of insurance.

one for like a CrossFit gym or powerlifting gym that has free weights and also barbells and you can do hang hang clean and clean and jerk and all that stuff. Uh and then there's a different level of uh of insurance underwriting for things like treadmills and bicycles and free weights that go up to 50 pounds.

And so that's why when you're traveling you see a lot of gyms that don't have they won't you can't do squats. there's a leg press machine and so they le they lean on the machines because they're the risk of injury is lower but the risk of gains is also lower.

So we are going to understand where you should travel um because to to to get access to the world's best gyms. Uh hotel gyms are a mixed bag. Even in top flight spots working out can be jar can be a jarringly subpar experience. That's right. Could not agree more. Machinery might be decades old.

The water cooler might might be might date to the 80s office era. Should get Rora. Uh for years, hospitality didn't invest in gyms as unlike with restaurants and spas the gym usually doesn't bring in ex any extra revenue. That's an interesting dynamic I hadn't thought of.

So yeah, I mean if you put in like a Nou in your hotel, that's going to drive a ton of extra revenue whereas your gym will not. Um so uh increasing just charge me per set with the 75 per pound. Yeah, charge me per pound. And then you got to put the bigger weights in cuz like I'm going to want to lift heavy.

Profit maximizing strategy. Uh so but increasingly top hotels are pivoting. It's important I keep the same fitness routines as when I'm at home, says Emily Oberg, founder of clothing label Sporty and Rich, who works out six times a week.

Her favorite hotel gyms include the Ritz Club in Paris for the pool and the Ilsan Pietro in Pazitano. It has it has alfresco cardio equipment uh outside cardio equipment uh tennis courts and views. It's motivating if the space is also beautiful.

Gym lighting needs to make you look and feel good while working out, says interior designer Kelly Worler. Acoustics should amplify without distracting. Materials should perform functionally while still feeling refined. I couldn't agree more. Have you been to any of the proper hotels? Santa Monica proper gym. I haven't.

She She designed the Santa Monica proper. Oh, really? Kelly Worler. Yeah, there you go. Um, okay. So, the best concept, these are awards from HTSI and uh the Financial Times. How to spend it. Uh, the best concept goes to Power in Ireland, a great gym chain in the lobby of the hotel.

Power, Ireland's leading boutique workout provider, has partnerships with the Dean Hotels in Cork, Dublin and Galloway, and the Mason also in Dublin.

In the gyms, there's a functional fitness area with a custom athletic rig and astroturf track, a lifting area, free weights and a cardio equipment, cardio area equipped with technology, techno gym, skill run treadmills, rowers, ski urgs, watt bike pros, and more.

There are several 45minute classes, including run and metcon. Guests can recover afterwards in the hyper ice suite, which is stocked with massage guns and foam rollers. Rooms from €200 euros. Not bad. The most scenic is at the Aman Zo at in Greece. It's an Aman property, of course. There we go.

Summer escapes are all about picturesque locations, seafront settings, a quaint and quiet local, and often ancient European history. Uh, this Aman property gym offers all of the above and then some. The resort has its own UNESCO protected ruins, but it's but it's the outdoor shaded weights area overlook.

Give it up for hotels that have ruins. That is the real cell. According to Tim Blakey, a personal trainer and founder of the workout at Prime Body, "We go on holiday to be outside. " He observes, "There's a slight breeze. The sun is usually out and you can get your nature fix while you lift weights. Rooms from 1,500.

Also not bad. " Oh, hey, here they have a proper hotel. Did you know that this was going to be in here? The proper hotel in Santa Monica. Best for recovery.

Uh, it has an amortal chamber where tech infused lounge chairs pulse with electromagnetic fields to deliver red light therapy to reduce inflammation and combat jet lag. Funny wax testing. Let's go. Okay, that's cool. Yeah, it's funny though.

When you walk into a I mean, you're going into a hotel gym, what do you really care about at the end of the day, John? How much weight you throw around? How much weight you can throw around.

Um, so, uh, and and they say at the at the proper hotel in Santa Monica, don't be surprised if you see Brian Johnson on your way out. Um, my, uh, personal favorite hotel, gym, Sensei, Sensei Porcupine Creek. This is Larry Ellison's uh, basically four seasons competitor and, uh, they've done a a really nice job with it.

Okay, we got to go through there. There there's a few others. The most exotic uh, the best for classes, but the the most exclusive. This is this is what I want to know about. Most exclusive hotel gym in the world according to the Financial Times. Suren at the Emory in Nightsbridge.

Guests of the All Suite Emory have full access to Sur Saren, a comprehensive wellness club with only 140 vetted members. It costs 15,000 pounds per year to join. I thought you were going to say per month. The gym is small, but it has 360 degree mirrors. So it feels bigger.

LA celebrity trainer Tracy Anderson has licensed her name to Saron. Uh it's the only place where you can book her dance cardio workouts in the UK. Alternatively, guests can request Isn't that kind of disappointing though that the the nicest that like the most exclusive gym in the world is is 15,000 a year.

Like shouldn't somebody make shouldn't somebody make like a like a the $100,000 a month gym? I think you just designed home gyms in mega mansions.

I maybe I did, but but with with a with an entire team of specialists, but so so so you can pay the £15,000 a year for a membership or you can book a suite for 1,600 pounds per night. Um, so maybe I don't know what is that. Uh, it's it's in pounds, so that's like 15 bucks US or something.

It is pretty funny that the the dynamic of this is the most exclusive club in the world, but if you just book a hotel room, you can go to it. Yeah, that's a bit silly. But this is where it gets good. So, if you book the hotel room, it's suites only. You book the hotel room, it's going to cost you 1,600 pounds a night.

They have a weights trolley that you can request, and it brings the weights to your suite. It includes dumbbells, kettle bells, skipping ropes, yoga balls, resistance bands, and a leather gym ball. A Pelaton bike can also be installed at a whim. So, you can be in your room and be like, "I don't want to go to the gym.

Bring the weights to me. " and they will bring them to you on a trolley. That is luxury. I love it. Anyway, lots of fun in the how to spend it section of the uh of the Financial Times. Uh any other uh any other news? Let's do some timeline. Um the other uh yeah, some time I like this post from Dylan Patel.

He said, "AI bros when I tell them Boeing outperformed Nvidia, Meta, Google, Broadcom, AMD, and Microsoft this year. " Yeah, I gotta pull up the Boeing uh chart. on public. com. I certainly do. So year to date up 34%. Wow. Let's give it up for Great America. Only 34%. How does that outperform Google, Nvidia, Meta?

I guess they all round trip because of the tariff. Nvidia is only up 18% year to date because a lot of the election stuff started getting priced in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. No, that makes a ton of sense. Um well, well, we have our we have our last guest of the show joining now. I'm gonna let you take the intro.

I will be right back. Let's do it.