Dr. Drew Pinsky on dot-com lessons: SoftBank gave him $10M before anyone knew what a website was

we're having audio issues. We will jump into the timeline. I can also just have him call my phone. I'm hearing something. Can you hear us? Oh, hello. You hear me? Oh, wow. Wow. Looking sharp. You really you really undersold this. You said you were just going to do a phone call and now here you are.

No, I thought I the full monty here cuz this is amazing. Okay, so first off, I need to apologize. I completely botched the story of drtj. com. In my defense, I believe I was 10 years old when I stopped by the office as a as a kid. Uh but please break it down for us. It's so funny.

The the only thing I found disturbing was how how miserably you did with my credentials. Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Let me start with that. Okay. I'm a physician. I'm a board certified internist. I'm a boardcertified addictionist. I'm a fellow with the American board college of physicians.

I'm got mult I was assistant clinical professor of psychiatry practice medicine my whole life. I'm not a psychologist. Okay. Yeah, we did do love line back in the day. I love Line. I I sincerely love Loveline. I wish I listened to it constantly. It was amazing.

Well, it it was very popular and it served a function back in the day, but but this this business spun out of it. I thought you guys would really like to hear this history because it is a piece of history. Incredible. U good friend of mine from high school, polytenic high school. Yeah.

We we went off to Ammeris College and then he went to Harvard Business School. I went to medical school and uh I'm going along doing all these wild things uh practicing medicine and then doing radio. And he shows up and he goes, "I want to I want to show you how to form a business. We're going to do a dot company.

" And of course, I was hearing about all the dot stuff in the in the wind.

and he got some seed capital from a company in Orange County like a million dollars and then he put together a little board and we went he grabbed me by the arm and took me up to Sand Hill Road and we sat at Softback Soft Bank rather and made he just said follow me I go what are we doing what are we I had no idea what we were doing didn't know how to start a business I didn't had you had you bought your.

com by the way had you like gone out probably had done something like that at that point I don't I don't sitting there without that. Yeah, exactly. And uh and he just goes, "Follow me. " And I was like, "Okay. " So I followed along and they go, "What do you want to do?

" And I'm like, you know, "Well, so I sort of I don't remember what I said, but uh the six or seven soft bank VC representatives marched out of the room and uh my Harvard Business School friend was anxious and like I didn't even understand what was happening. Still, I did not.

" and they came back in and they go, "Okay, $10 million. " That was that. Let's go. We went down and we built the company exactly as you described. But in fact, it drove my wife crazy. She goes, "What are people doing here? Why aren't they why aren't they working there?

We shouldn't it shouldn't be this nice an environment. " But most of that was for the tech team. And you pointed out how weird the tech situation was. You got that part exactly right. But the part you got wrong is remember people didn't have any idea what a website was.

And so we had an editorial staff, we had a medical staff, we had a marketing team, and they envisioned I kept saying, "Why do we need a magazine on my computer screen? Why why you're you're building this really great magazine but with a chat room and with some feedback?

" And they kept they all the all the all these sort of trigger words back then were interaction. Uh and and I didn't understand I saw no value in any of it. I kept saying I I I kept and we had 120 employees and we had a board of directors from from Northern California who were demanding we uh quote get big fast.

This is this is interesting. Get big fast. This guy this I I came to our first board meeting. I said, "Look, I I'm trying to decide if um we should figure out how to make money, how to make this profitable or or what we should be doing or how to, you know, did they tell you, don't worry about that.

Don't worry about that. " Worse than that, this one guy goes, "If" He was manic as hell, and he goes, "If I thought you were so stupid, I never would have been on this board. " And he jumps up and he goes, "Here's how you make money at. com company.

" And there was a giant whiteboard and he wrote in huge letters, "Get big fast. " Yeah. And they were demanding we burn through capital faster to try to get big fast. So that became the weird it was the weirdest thing I ever seen in my life. But the one thing I got right I kept saying it's going to be video.

Why else do we need this thing? It's going to be video. But look look what we're doing right now. Right. Yeah. And I just kept saying that and we put together a one night a week television show. Yeah. That was really a high quality show. We still have some of the tapes from it. And everybody came in.

Paul Rudd, uh, Tommy Lee, everybody came in on that one night a week show because it was the cool thing to do because there's this new idea. This dot company creates a TV show and nobody could watch it. Do you know why? Cuz you couldn't stream it because nobody had stream. Nobody had broadband. Yeah, broadband.

You needed broadband back then. That's that's how far ahead of the technology we were. How were you guys? It sounds like you weren't making a ton of money, but were you selling the show on a subscription? Like what what did that was the was there any business model ads? No, just eyeballs.

So, so get big fast didn't mean revenue or profits. It meant eyeballs. I eyeballs get big meant money number of people. And they kept talking about how the curve, you know, how the asetic curve would develop around viewership and and engagement and this kind of stuff.

And we literally this was a company I mean it had lots of traction and engagement and stuff. People were kind of intrigued by it. So people were stopping by and looking at this thing. I I not sure we did lots of interviews with celebrity.

It was sort of like E meets uh Teen B meets, you know, it was all these different things uh all together in one site. And uh we literally were sitting in Goldman Sachs on I believe it was March 19th uh 20 20 2010. Wait, when was that? Sorry, 1989 or 2000. The day the NASDAQ fell apart.

We were sitting the day we were sitting in Goldman Sachs and the woman across the table was contemplating giving us $30 million on a $110 million valuation for a company that had never made a penny. Wow. And I I I just thought it was the dumbest thing I ever saw.

But I I I I knew it was tulips the whole way and I kept and one friend of mine finally goes, "Look, it's Amsterdam 1680. It's tulips. You're going to grow Brussels sprouts or you going to grow tulips? What are you going to do? " I thought, "All right, I'm I'm going to grow tulips.

" Well, it's I mean, it's interesting to think back and if and if if if it was structured as an investment that was actually in you and your name and likeness, it would have been a tremendous investment, but that wasn't a good dot story. It It was why we got the money though. Uh in fact, there's there's an Inc.

article on my wall here. I was going to actually pull down and wave in front of the camera, but it'd be almost impossible to do it.

uh were that they were sort of saying that's what they were, you know, that's kind of what they were thinking they were doing, but it was not it was not a clear thought, but they were looking for brands. Yeah. And I don't think they really knew that that that was not a fully developed thought at that time. Yeah.

Um so what was the conclusion? Like going to business school, I saw the entire the entire from from seed to dissolve. I saw the entire business cycle in one year. So, did you did you eventually take take over the site again yourself or what? Oh, Dr. Coupe brought bought the site. Remember Dr. Coupe? You wouldn't.

You're too young. He was the attorney general and then he he had a website that actually did rather well for a minute. Did he just redirect the website or was he still using drdt. com? No, no, he was a redirect. He absorbed everything and and um and he went bankrupt as everybody did. Yeah.

A and we got we were able to weasel it back. I forget how we got it back, but we had to do some sleuththing and we finally got it back. So yeah, what what what how did the shape of your business evolve then and like what uh like how do you think about packaging everything that you do now?

Um you know there there's I was listening to you guys talk and I was thinking boy I don't have any framework. This is all very interesting to me but but I don't have a framework to sort of understand what I do. My stuff is always an improvisation. Sure. Right. I when I started radio in 1983, I had no designs on radio.

I I was leave me alone so I can practice medicine. I'll come here in the evenings on Sunday and do community service. That was my little notion in 1983 when I started doing radio. Then there some television guys came along. I'm like, how do you do a TV show? I've never I don't even know what you're talking about.

Well, this was the same thing with the dot. My my good friend comes to me and goes, we're going to do this. And I thought I I don't see it. I don't get it, but I think we might be able to do something with it. It' be interesting. This was a hell of an education.

Um, and uh, and you're asking how I frame everything I do now. Now, yeah, I was wondering how Well, it's just been interesting how many techn how many different technology trends from the to, you know, podcasting, but it all comes back to basically radio and TV. Yeah.

like like what over over the past uh you know more recent tech boom history have you been hit with the hey let's do uh let's do a Dr. Drew or let's do an AI thing. Is this coming? Is it rearing its head again? It that has been that has been I've had conversations like that. Yeah, of course. Of course.

Uh exactly what to do with it? Nobody knows. Nobody, right? Uh but it's part of the exploration. Uh I'm doing streaming shows regularly. You guys blasted them up there. It looked like hell. Wait, you put it up there. I'm going to talk to my web master. I mean, it looks really good for conversion optimization.

It made me want to click. No, I think you're I think your your person is doing a good job. Not meant to be shown on other people's shows. But um uh you know that's been interesting. It it happened that all happened just because I got cancelled for daring to say people shouldn't panic about co Oh yeah.

And uh that caused me to just stop doing everything. And I had somebody who said, "Hey, you should do a streaming show. " I was like, "What's that? " Again, that's sort of my it's where I start every one of these projects. Yeah.

Yeah, you had a bad experience streaming the first time where you're like, if if I make the show, you're sure people are going to be able to watch it. But no more confidence this time, but it works. I I knew it. I already knew that. I already knew. I saw what was happening with videos.

I just kept we just kept saying we were so early. We just we we could have been who knows what we could have been you god knows we could have been YouTube or something if we had sort of been the first to really advocate for this kind of platform.

But we were way early and nobody else was quite as much of a believer as I was. And uh so the streaming thing has been very interesting and you just I'm in my own my kids' playroom doing this and it's the it's the same thing.

Everything here used to require me to go out to a satellite booth boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo boo booth at CNN. Yeah and now I just do it from here. So the efficiencies are fantastic.

And so I do television out of the studio. I do podcasting out of the studio. I do streaming shows. And it all started because I got cancelled and some my web master said the streaming is probably going to happen pretty soon. I said let's try that.

And uh I wanted to talk to all the pe other other physicians who had been cancelled. One of them happens to be the director of the NIH right now. And so I sense that that these people had something to say and the cancellation thing was some sort of bizarre aberration certainly in in science and medicine.

Had you have you gotten you know the the opportunities that you maybe lost due to the cancellation have you gotten invited back in the last or is it just a different set of opportunities or is it yeah are you looking at totally different or do you not even want to go back to the to kind of the old these are great questions I I don't know that I want to go back but I probably would because I've taken the position that my opinions have never changed.

I'm happy to express them on any platform anywhere. Uh what has happened in the meantime is you know what I used to do say all the news outlets all of them all of a sudden the only people that would have me on was Fox. Yeah. Uh now just last week CNN called so I thought okay good this is a good sign.

I couldn't make it but I would have had I been able to healing. Nature's healing. Yeah.

Um uh we've we we've been really obsessed with this idea that uh sort of a barbell is emerging in modern media where all the value either acrru to the platforms like YouTube, Twitch, Instagram or the individuals, the Joe Rogan, the Andrew Huberman, the Cruz and that it's very hard to actually build anything in the middle.

Um would you agree with that? Would you is this something that you've kind of experienced? Uh it it feels like something that um no I the I I absolutely concur with the on the talent side that because it used to be I would require to do what we're doing right now. There'd be an executive producer.

There'd be a segment producer. There would be a director in the studio in the satellite booth. There'd be somebody directing in the other end at the satellite booth. There would be and you got the union the unions involved with. There'd be unions. There'd be sales forces. There'd be executive structures. Now it's me.

Yeah. That's it. So, it's so much more efficient and it drives that world crazy. Yeah. So, when Colbear gets gets fired for losing $40 million a year, I just looked at that and I go, "Well, of course, that's going to happen to all of them. This is just not a model.

" And our reaction at that point was he could just go set up his own home studio and probably have a fantastic business just with his existing fan base and none of the none of the overhead. 100%. But they are they are you got to know how that world thinks. They're very spoiled.

They're very spoiled and they're used to gigantic infrastructure and dozens of writers and this is this the world we're living in right as we have this interview to them looks sort of cheap and dumb and people aren't talented do that.

The real people people back back us with infrastructure and money that that just not so this the other side of the barbell which I'm wondering how you see it. I just see it as largely nonviable. So much of it has got to shrink dramatically and it's resisting. Yeah. It's resisting like crazy. Yeah.

I mean I I would almost put the the traditional media corporations like in the center. When I think of the far big mega side of the barbell, I think of the platforms Spotify, Facebook, Meta, YouTube, Twitch, LinkedIn, the networks, and they actually acrue a ton of the value.

And and and it is extremely hard to start one of those companies. If you do, you're not talent at all.

In fact, you're probably an engineer and you probably at this point have the backing of like a state government because that's the only way Tik Tok got going was, you know, so much energy and capital flowing in to actually, you know, break through.

The ship has sailed on starting like new platforms for the most part in my opinion. I think that's probably right. And and there and they don't need to buy talent. No, not at all. It just comes to them naturally and they give 50% of the revenue or whatever they're Yeah.

We would rather we would rather just have you jump on our show from your studio. Yep. And you benefit because people are going to trickle over to you and and uh ads. We just get to focus on making content and not not focused on talent.

But the interesting thing is you you have to wonder is there are we somewhere in a business cycle that's going to lead to some consolidation and when the talent consolidates are they going to start negotiating with the platforms? Is there going to be some sort of Yeah.

I mean, that would be a natural business cycle, right? Yeah. What was that new uh left-wing Substack uh publication that just announced? Uh they said they're libbing out or something. Remember this? Yeah. What are the Anyway, there's like a collection the argument.

Uh so there's there's a new a new publication that's launching that's aggregating a number of writers who are sort of on the left.

And we were kind of debating will they have leverage over different platforms because they're all together or does it actually make more sense for Matt Eiglacius and Derek Thompson to just have their own substacks and go direct and then you know and then on the far other side is the is the platform and there's really no one in between.

But we're still early in the in this development of the the argument. Well there there's something very strange. It's there's a weird uh confluence of worlds right now. Yeah. My son just texted me and he's he's been trying to get to you guys. I really know this. Does he want to Does he wanna Does he want to hop on?

We'll send the link. Yeah. Yeah, we'll send you join right after you. Listening. Uh maybe call my phone and I'll put you up to the uh microphone here. But he's Let's do it. He's consolidating the ad department, you know, the the management, the the lawyering, the ad services, the distribution.

He's trying to consolidate that onto a tiny little team. Sure. Because these things aren't nec all this stuff is not needed anymore. Yeah. You need you need an ad agency. Yeah. This is amazing. The the chat is going wild. Everyone's really happy with this. They're calling uh they're calling your son the prodigal son.

Question. Well, he he I'm going to see if I get him to call me. He said he emailed he his his partner named Jake emailed one of you guys. Okay. Okay. We'll have to follow up. But uh but they're having huge success and he's the one that he's the one that started talking about AI. He's he's in the middle of all of this.

The tech influencers, the the Google store, the Tik Tok store, all everything. Yeah. But all of that is more efficient, more efficient, more efficient. Yep. Right. I mean, and the and what you have is these the the talent agencies and the ad agencies and the managerial services and the lawyers holding on.

They're like they're like going into the foxholes as opposed to adjusting and adapting and changing what what it is they do. They are just insisting that things continue to be done the way that they've always been done. And it's it's it's I guess a classic business mistake, right? Yeah. Totally. Yeah.

Um I have one I have one uh one one health one health question for you. What are the uh uh John John and I are starting a what we hope to be multiple decades run of of uh daily live streaming.

uh what would you have done when when you were earlier in your career health-wise to um to better sell you know you you seem to be doing incredibly well now. So what are what are the key things to look out for healthwise to make sure you can do this for decades.

Um be hypomomanic uh helps which which a lot of successful business people are. Yes. You're going it's you know I I hear many of the podcasts you're going to suffer. You're going to work hard. you're going to lose sleep. I wish id paid more attention to sleep, but if I had, I couldn't have done most of what I did.

I'm trying to pay attention to sleep now. And um you know, you've heard it all before. It's it's not this is not new. Trust your instincts. Uh explore. Don't be afraid to fall down.

I for me the the the big as I look back on all the things I did, it it just the willingness to improvise and to go into dangerous situations. I mean, a lot of Oh, he's calling now. Let's get him on. We got the sun on. I don't know if they can hear. He can I'll have to translate from you. Uh, put on speaker phone.

Hey, how's it going, guys? How you doing? What's happening? Good son, obviously. But we um, my business partner and I actually emailed you a couple weeks back. Okay. We rep Roberto Nixon. Oh, no way. I love that's amazing. Okay. Yeah, we got to get in touch. My dad was on the air with Fantastic.

I'm flying back from Seattle. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I do. So, we did have a little exchange. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's follow you guys. He's going to keep talking. Okay. He can't I'll tell him what you said. He can't hear you. You're talking, Douglas.

I was going to say that I So Rob and Jake are going to an Oasis concert next week in Pasadena. And I was going to ask you if you could meet Rob in Pasadena. His sister also his her kids are going to Paulie. And Doug went to Paul, too. Doug went to Poly August.

Like you said at the beginning of the show, only famous people go to Poly Technic School. That's fantastic. Um, no. Hi. I just wanted to say hi and uh show you that we're not like uh the rest of those guys that probably email you randomly asking for things and wanting to to build a relationship.

It's it's very funny that this all happened in a strange way. So yeah, this is actually have to take a call for this creator named Roth who's a Gen AI creator because he's in Dubai and I you know just trying to get on the [ __ ] You got to get on with Dubai. We know we know how that goes. All right, get going.

And I I call these guys because they butchered my my uh my and I had to get them. He John is that which one's John? I'm John. John John was actually at drd. com when he was like 10 years old. Yeah. For a year. Yeah. I was in the very cold data center. Yeah. Okay. Racking servers. That's spectacular.

So there's there's a long history on on on all fronts. Andy went to Poland. So okay, we'll talk later. Yes. And he went to Amazing. Okay. Yeah. Um, okay. I I I have one more question on the health for you. For you. Okay. Sorry, Doug. Later, Douglas. Later. Uh, for you, uh, last week we had Mark Cuban on the show.

He said that, uh, drinking raw milk is extremely dangerous and should never be done yet. I drank I I'll go on the record. I drank a liter of raw milk every day for two years straight. You were fine. Yeah. That was so anelain. He didn't he didn't give any underlying rationale. Yeah, I doubt he knows why.

He was just saying that that the LLMs might convince you to drink raw milk and that might lead to some sort of doom scenario. You can get brucyosis, you probably get tulia, you can get listiosis and we can treat that with antibiotics, no problem. Uh but they can make you very sick and they're very rare. Yeah.

Uh I I wouldn't do it but I don't the fact that pe I look there's something terrible going on. Yeah. Where people are so fearful of being the biological agents that we are. Yeah. And the reality that we are going to die that they are afraid to live. Yeah. Living well is the goal. Not living forever.

Not living perfectly free of illness. It's living a good life. And we are off of that. I can't We are so far off of that. It is disgusting. And for a non-f physician to have an opinion about milk that contains pathogenic organisms that he's never heard of or learned to pronounce yesterday is disturbing to me.

It's the same thing when people went after hydroxychloricquin the day they learned how to say that word. The medicine I've been prescribing for decades. So it's all we are so out of whack with this going to live forever fear of death illness infection. Oh [ __ ] Yes.

We are we we my generation of physicians we walked into illnesses that had 100% fatality. AIDS had 100% fatality. And we did not know what we were dealing with. And we didn't cower in the corner. We marched in. It's the right thing to do that. I don't know what's happened. I I can't understand this at all.

But um here we are. We need to focus on living well, living a good life. Period. Did you uh did you stuff comes what may? Did you predict the decline of alcohol consumption? It's I did not. It seemed off a cliff, right? Yeah. Yeah. I did.

That's still surprising to me, but it fits with the lack of dating and the lack of having sex and the lack of socializing. It it it that was that was a prime social lubricant for decades. I'm glad to see it. It's a good thing.

You know, the people are starting to understand it's a poison and it's not good for any tissue in our body ever. But it makes me all so I mean what happens when did we become such [ __ ] When did that happen? That's my question these days. When did that happen? I don't know.

I mean I' I've You can't Have you ever said something like that on CNN? This is why you got to stay off the networks. You just got to do your own show. I I guess I'm I'm just I've been through so much lately.

I've just lost all uh I I'm a huge advocate for freedom of speech and freedom of many sort I'm not happy about this flag burning thing. We freedom freedom freedom is what I'm all about now speaking my mind. I will pitch you one possible explanation.

Um I I think that the the fear of very you know consequential but low probability events um like the raw milk or the risk from raw milk or the risk from COVID uh is tied to a lack of belief in immortality uh and not in the sense of of living forever like biological immortality like science will cure this and let you live forever.

That's just one way to think about immortality. You can also think about immortality in your legacy. If you are written about and you have lived a great life, you will be remembered and immortalized. You can also think about it through your children. Um, and also through the the afterlife.

If you're spiritual or religious, you could think that you're going to heaven.

And if you don't believe in any of those modes of of of immortality, you don't believe that you're going to have kids or or do your life's work and be remembered in the afterlife or go to heaven or or you don't believe that science will be able to fix you if you do wind up getting sick from raw milk.

Um then even a small chance has the has an incredible incredible penalty and so you you discount it very very high. Uh so I I agree with you uh with a couple of caveats. I I do agree with you. Yeah.

Um embedded in that observation is a general lack of meaning making is that if the meaning is I'm trying to ascend to a after what whatever the meaning is of my living that meaning should be deeply meaningful to me and purposeful. It doesn't it does not have to include an afterlife.

It can also include just creating a good life for my children. That's why I'm here to do that. That kind of thing. But we people are here for their narcissistic needs and that's when things become fragile. Yes. Because we we are not the beginning and the end of everything. We just are not.

And if we think we're all there is is what's happening to me. Yeah. Man. And then we have people whipping the frenzies and the fear and they're learning to control us with that and that that is disgusting. Yeah. What about um have you been tracking uh AI psychosis at all? Any any thoughts? I I hear about it.

I I don't I don't believe it. I'll tell I'll I'll take I'll make a bet that that it's over way overblown. It was somebody who's already psychotic and you know, whatever. Um there not that the AI relationships are necessarily going to be good. I I I worry about that. But this psychotic episode, I don't know.

I don't know if you remember back in the 90s there were news stories every night. I was born sir. Okay. Do you have to rub that in? Do you have to say? You just said no. I don't remember. No, no, no. Late later 90s I got into the action.

But uh but uh but there was news reports like every night like oh these parties where all the parents throw their keys in a bowl and they just they just grab a set of keys and that's who they go home with that night. Oh sure. the press, the fake. I don't think people were sensitive to fake news.

We have to be very sensitive to reporting these days. So much of what's being reported is fake. And it's just to catch your eyes. It's just to get your attention. They they the person that wrote that article was a 23-year-old segment producer somewhere who doesn't do any research of of any meaning.

It it just becomes something that they catch on the line. They saw other people report it, they report it. It It's ridiculous. Yeah.

I mean the the my my read on it is is it seems obvious now that if a large number of people take Iwasa, some of them are going to have some type of psychotic break of sorts and and maybe they were prone to to or or had some some underlying issue that that enabled that. But the issue with you're right.

they already had a psychotic illness and they just happened to break when they're working with AI.

But you're you're raising you're you're making a very smart observation that the that AI world is populated by people that micro dose on acid and do Iaska which I I tell you it categorically causes severe psychiatric problems. I've seen it my entire career. Scares the hell out of me. They should not be doing that.

If you're listen Yeah. If you're listening live from Burning Man, just listen to Dr. Drew. Did you ever go to Burning Man, by the way? Doesn't seem No, we got friends keep trying to get us to go. It's not It's not my jam. Exactly. It's not my jam either.

Well, you could go there and try to try to, you know, talk people out of it. How about we stick to the Bud Light, buddy? Yeah, let's stick to crushing beers. Have a couple glasses of wine. Anyway, this has been fantastic. Thank you for coming on. Crafting the record. Come back on anytime. We appreciate this.

We'd love to have you back. You guys are great. I I learned something just listening to you guys. this talking about the playing the uh baseball cards that fascinating.

You guys have a great uh you're obviously extremely well trained in in your in your respective fields and it's very interesting to hear you talk about these various markets and opportunities and things and I leave with one caveat. Please, if you don't call my son, he's going to kill me.

So, we will definitely we're will go to this concert with him. We will. We will. Exactly. And it's in Pasadena. If you come back, I live in Pasadena now. You live there now? I do. I live over Rose Bowl. Roseville is literally walking distance for me. So do I. Amazing.

Okay, we should just become my address, but I'll swing by for Well, we live a 30 rack of Bud Light. We live by Annale. Oh, okay. Yeah, I'm right over there. Okay. So, just up. No excuse. I don't want to get too I don't want to get too too precise show up with people at my front door.

Anyway, thank you so much for hopping on. This is fantastic. Great. We will talk. Bye. Uh, that's why we leave a 30-minute gap in the middle of the show. We got to start doing that. Uh, anyway, we are shifting gears. We're going into the world of Palunteer. We have Colin Anderson coming into the studio.

He's in the reream waiting room, but we're bringing him in now to talk about um running finance at Palunteer. He was there for years. I actually ran into him on Saturday. Got a chance to catch up with him and he had some fantastic stories. Hopefully, he can share most of them here. Um, and we're