Former CIA spy master and congressman Will Hurd on CHAOS Industries' radar technology, drone threats, and Golden Dome

dreamy beds, top tier cleaning, and 247 concier service. It's a vacation home, but better, folks. Our next guest is Willard from Chaos Industries. He's the chief strategy officer, former CIA, former congressperson. Welcome. What's going on? How you doing? Hey, doing fantastic. It's great to be on with y'all.

I I feel like I'm on with the Shaq and Barkley. of tech reporting. So, thanks for having me. We love to hear that. Thank you. Let's go. We don't know about sports, but but those sound like some big names. Fun fact, I endorsed you for president. I said everyone else who's running is a lawyer.

You're the only computer scientist. Talk to me about uh your journey studying computer science uh through working in the government. I I I want to I want to get a little bit of backstory before we go into what you're doing now. Sure. Um you know, it was funny.

When I was in high school, I had the opportunity to do an internship uh with a woman who was at Southwest Research Institutes. They are one of the largest private research entities in in the country.

And I fell in love with with computer science and decided to go to Texas A&M University uh Giga Maggis and um you know study computer science, you know, and and when I when I first when I first got to college, I thought I was going to go work at IBM and then give it up for international business machines.

We love international business and machines. There we go. There we go. Um and and but I had this guy who was a guest lecturer in one of my classes um that was a former CIA officer and he told the most amazing stories and I was like I want to do that.

And so when I graduated from college I joined the CIA and my I was a case officer so my job was recruit spies and steal secrets. It was it was the best job. Yeah.

That's that's an important that's an important distinction because I think people think about CIA agents, but those are the people that are recruited by the case officers who are doing the the puppeteering, right? That's right. Or you could say the spy master. Yeah, the spy master. Spy master. That's great.

Uh so yeah, please it was it was look it was an awesome gig, right? Two years India, two years in Pakistan.

I did some inter agency work in New York City around counterp proliferation and then a year and a half in Afghanistan where I managed all of our undercover operations and in addition to collecting intelligence on our threats to our homelands, I had to brief members of Congress and I was pretty shocked by the caliber of our elected leaders.

So I decided to run for Congress and and that's kind of how that started. That's amazing. Uh we we had uh Dan Wang on the show recently. He wrote a book, Relentless. Uh, and he talks about um I I hope I have that right. I'm might be messing some of that.

But, uh, the basic thesis of the book is that China has an engineering mindset and they employ a lot of engineers in the government whereas America has become the lawyerly society and we have a lot of lawmakers who are lawyers by training.

And I'm wondering about your thoughts on the direction America should be going in terms of empowering folks who can think from first principles or have engineering mindsets to actually go and build things like highspeed rail or you know we got to the moon and we're seeing a little bit of this with with Doge and more engineers in in the White House.

What's the overall your overall view on the level of engineering talent in government and the benefits and costs of that? Look, I I think that thesis is is actually correct. Um, I've spent the last 25 years of my adult life in some form or fashion connected to national security.

Whether it was CIA, in Congress, I was on the House Intelligence Committee seeing how things our threats to our nation evolve. I was on the appropriations committee making sure that we were spending trillions of dollars in in in the right way. I've been on the National Security Agency um um advisory board.

Um when I was at Allen & Company, the New York Investment Bank, I was working with technology companies. And here's been one uh similar throughput through all this.

Um the the Chinese government has made it very clear the way they're going to surpass the United States of America as the global superpower is by mastering a number of different technologies. There's about 15, 16, 17 of them. Everything from AI to to hypersonics.

And with that as the overarching goal, um there is a a desire and interest in in order to win. Uh let's look, you mentioned the space race right now. Uh where there's we're we're rushing to go back to the moon and the and guess what the Chinese are going to do?

The Chinese are going to do it the exact same way we did it in the past, right? Shocker. They're going to steal all of our plans and ideas and replicate them. You know, uh crazy for the first time. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

But but but we're also seeing that um in in in whether it's it's AI and how they're trying to dominate it. We saw them uh uh dominate 5G. Uh the fact that you know uh the the 5G infrastructure now is I think it's like a is over a third in in the world is is is Chinese tech.

the in AI, the issue of AI, um they're trying to make sure by 2030. Every six-year-old is AI conversant and we're still having debates here in the United States of America about whether AI should should be included. And then I don't even tell you about what's happening on the battlefield, right?

You know, we're seeing uh they're they're learning from Ukraine. They're figuring out how to use autonomy in air, on land, and and and in the sea. uh their focus on electronic warfare and how to disrupt our systems.

Um they're trying to not only build more than what we have, they're also looking forward to to making sure that they have mass and autonomy in in warfare. And so this is this is the world in which we're living in. And we need people that actually understand technology to make sure that we can make it happen.

Perfect example. No company cannot figure out not they don't know that what their budget's going to be next year or what their plan for sales is next year. But within the federal government, you know, we don't know necessarily from year to year what the funding is going to be.

And for a trillion dollar enterprise, uh you can't do that.

I think at a minimum you should have a two-year uh budget and appropriation so that you can you know with some certainty of where you need to go and and not trying to go monthtomonth um to try to get things done and and I think that's that's right now one of the issues that I think a lot of venture capital and venture VC backed companies are trying to change with DoD.

Um it's slow it's going it's it's moving it's changing but we have to have that we have to bring that mentality to government. Yeah. talk about your path to chaos. Uh it's a it's a wild name for a defense tech company, but you're doing some very cool things. Uh how did how did all this come together?

Look, I I didn't think um Sling Radars was going to was on my bingo card, right? But when when I I got to meet uh uh Dr. Bo Mar, one of our our co-CEOs and founders of Chaos, he had also previously founded Eperis.

John Tenant, another one of our co-CEOs who I've known for some time, and he's like, "Look, Will, we're doing something interesting. Why don't you come to LA and and see our product? " And and I was blown away. Right. First off, unbelievable team, right?

This is these are, you know, engineers that have been um you know, quoted in in in um uh Nobel prizes, right?

You have you have real operators in government, Navy Seals, folks that worked in in Delta Force, CIA, um you know, you have operators that have been in in the system and you're working on some of the most cutting edge technology, right?

Like you know, we we have we have figured out a thing called coherent distributed networking. This is taking multiple things in talking to talking to each other and we figured out how to do that to the picoscond.

Now a picos second you know for some for some references one picoscond to a second is like a second is to 32,000 years. That's really fast.

And by figuring out how you have this time transfer work, we're able to build a more powerful system and a cheaper system and and and and so the the that you know amazed me and and ultimately the the vision of of the company right since let's call it uh the end of the Korean War, right?

America and our allies have had air superiority. We and that air superiority has given our troops the ability to look forward not above their heads at swarms. It's allowed commerce to whip around uh the world and and those days are over, right? Because of autonomy on on the battlefield.

70% of of casualties in in warfare right now are from autonomous systems and drones. And the time to detect and do something about it is shrinking. And ultimately what chaos is doing is we're giving the war fighter more time, a time to understand what's happening, time to decide what to do and and time to act.

And so for me to get back to my roots of national security, it was exciting. And so that's how I ended up that's how I ended up at Chaos. What's the what's the highest priority threat that radar can help mitigate? Is it is it these autonomous drones these days? It it is.

Look, there's a lot of conversation right now around Golden Dome and and Golden Dome is is is something that we need to have. We need to be able to defend against nuclear tipped intercontinental ballistic missiles right from our adversaries primarily China, Russia and Iran and and North Korea.

And this is a phased approach from detecting it when it when it launches from their homeland to trying to identify it in space. the the the the technology that has evolved and and what we're able to do now sensing in space is pretty fantastic. And this is an important this is an important problem.

But the reality in my the most recent threat like the the threat that we're most likely to see is a a subsonic cruise missile or a drone. And and this can be this can be shot from a plane off the coast of California. It could be a van that is filled with a a number of of of explosive drones.

These are the things that we're going to see um more more likely than a nuclear nuclear weapon. And and we call these under layer threats. These are things that are happening under 50,000 50,000 ft. And and that's something that radars is is able to help detect.

And one of the things that we're learning because of of some of the technological uh advances we've made, we can see big high and far and low, small and near at the same time and and I always remind people I think pretty much everybody in America watch Maverick, you know, Top Gun 2. Top Gun that's a real thing.

Flying below the radar is a real thing. and and so uh we're able to see uh below that below that level and and that's something that that is going to be helpful against this drone threat which we've already seen. We've seen what the Ukrainians did in in in Russia.

We've seen what what Israel has done in Iran and all of that being able to take out this this exquisite infrastructure. All right. and and exquisite is actually a a a has a unique uh phrasing or or or definition in government that means big ass expensive systems. Pardon my language.

And and so so so we're you're able to take these systems out with a a system that cost a billion dollars with a drone that cost 20K, right?

So that cost asymmetry is one of the things that that the right radar and what we're doing in in multi-static radar is something that um that that is we're is one of the reasons why we're getting traction and excitement within uh DoD and and the rest of and militaries around the world to be honest.

I don't know if you can say anything here, but are you guys uh doing anything on the counter narcotics side? Yeah, we've been seeing some stuff here. Uh, I've I've watched a bunch of YouTube videos on narco subs aren't true submarines, but designed to be hard to detect.

Um, look, this is this is an issue that's actually, you know, close to my heart. When I was in Congress, I represented a district that was 29 counties, two time zones, 825 miles of the border between Texas and and Mexico. I had more border than any other member of Congress.

And so what the narco trafficantes, the drug traffickers are doing, um they're sophisticated. The the narcos in Mexico alone are making roughly, and this is a conservative number, $60 billion in one year. Wow. The the entire US intelligence budget is $60 billion, right?

And and so you add up all the all the foundation model lab revenue and you don't get anything. You don't get there. It's bigger than AI. Yeah. No, look, it's it's it's it's wild.

And so so yes, um I I you know there is it is known um in the end of end of last year, I think beginning of this year, Border Patrol testified in front of the Senate that there were, you know, something ridiculous like 41,000 drone sightings in just one sector of the border.

So we know the narcos are using the drone warfare against themselves, right? And and and so so like rival gangs basically. Absolutely. Absolutely. It it's like the drone warfare you're seeing between Ukraine and and Russia. They're adapting some of these tactics, techniques, and procedures to that fight.

And then we also know the only way you get $60 billion worth of of of drugs into the United States of America is by you bringing them in volume and and there is there is likely some coming uh uh via autonomous systems, air and and sea.

and we've had conversations uh with with authorities in order to help uh with this with this project. And so once we once we learn more, we'll come back and I'll get you I'll give you a report on on on some of the things that that we're seeing.

Can you give me some uh some describe the shape or the physicality of what you're building? Um you know, there's been you look at those like Anderl submarines, they're square now. They look like they just fit in shipping containers. Uh there's a lot of logistics that you get out of the box.

If it fits in a shipping container, you can load it onto a boat, an autonomous boat, you can load it on a truck. There's also stuff that need can be mounted on an aircraft or something that's, you know, getting into exquisite territory, exquisite system territory.

Where do you see the opportunity to deploy new radar systems? So, so one of our our products we call Vanquish is an expeditionary system. So, uh the three of us can can carry that. It can fit on the back of an ATV and go into to really Is that an invite? Rough drink. Is that an invite? Are we going ating? Let's do it.

Hey, you know, hey, I think we're just right around the corner from y'all. So amazing. So So next time next next time we'll take y'all we'll take you out. That'd be great. Yeah. And and so so that one is is low form factor, small that can be deployed in in difficult environments.

We have another system called Astria, which we were just celebrating. We had a a a major finance award from um the the US Air Force about this product um that we're deploying in Eglund Air Force Base in in Florida. How much was that deal for? We like to ring the gong around here for big numbers. There we go. Hit it.

Uh how much was it? Uh so uh 2 million. Oh, wait. One more gong. We got one more gong. We got one more. Give it to us. The House of Representatives uh put in 10 million in the defense bill. Here we go. Go. Congratulations. There we go. I love it. I love to see it. We like to celebrate big contracts around here.

Um, what what uh what else are uh are you or defense tech companies or the United States government uh focused on in terms of uh actual deployment? There's been a lot of talk about uh you know the Ukraine war. It's been going on for a long time. Very sad.

Um uh it's unfortunately become a a serious business for many companies. Um there's also uh Anderol announced what a $1 billion deal with Australia. Uh there's deals going on in Taiwan obviously in the Middle East.

Um where else in the geopolitical realm are should should founders be thinking about understanding the nature of the changing war fighter and the changing battlefield and then building solutions for look.

If you're if you're a defense tech company and you have an operator or aren't operating in Ukraine, that's that's that's going to be a problem. If you're investing in companies, if I'm going to be an investor in a defense tech company, my first question is, does your stuff work?

And has it worked in Ukraine in one of the most difficult environments on the planet right now? And that environment is going to make the First Island chain if we get into a conflict with the Chinese look like a playground, by the way. And so so so we've been in in in in Ukraine.

We've been tested against the electronic warfare systems of the Russians. The Ukrainians have asked us to come back. We're working on being able to do that. We were deployed in the Middle East during the 12 12-day war. We saw Shahed um drones going back and forth um between between Israel and Iran.

So we've been deployed there. Of course, the the potential for geopolitical conflict in in the Indo-Pacific is is an important place where we're having conversations to be able to to deploy against there. So, so we've been How quickly how quickly can you guys set up in a new in a new region, right?

Because like Sentcom has been quieter, but feels like that could bubble up again at any point. Look, so so our our system deployed, you know, once it comes off the truck, we can put it up in about 15 minutes, right? And so so doing that is something but but changing the flow with within the within the US government.

Look, the the the the value of of a company like Chaos when we have, you know, basically half a billion dollars in our bank account from all of our our all of our our raises is we're able to operate in these long sales cycles or potential changes within the within the federal government.

And so so part of us is just understanding where the threat is, making sure we're deploying and and one of the reasons we're kind of, you know, been a little bit more active in in the public is that our stuff works and we've been deployed and it it's it's operating.

We have we have a year of of of consistent deployment in really tough places and and so that's one of the things that's important for us and we're going to go wherever the war fighter needs us. Uh you're building a sensor. There are other companies building. There are companies that want to integrate sensors andectors.

I'm thinking of Palanteer. I'm thinking of Latattis from Anderole. Uh are those out of the box integrations? Are those partnerships that you're talking to? Obviously, you're super close with a lot of those folks. Um what does what does building a product that integrates with everything else?

Because I can't imagine that you're saying, "Oh, on day one, we want to, you know, we we we we don't we want to be the only defense tech company. " No, you're part of the ecosystem. you're building, you know, one solution.

How do you think about integrating with the rest of the key part of this and what the US government needs and wants is is completing the kill chain, right? So you can sense and do the aector and and one of the areas holy grail may be too strong of a word, but getting to an aector that's cheap, right?

Or inexpensive is is the word word I should use. And so that integration is important. Um, and so we've already demonstrated ability uh to integrate with our our our friends in Anderero. But Paul and I go way back when I was in in Congress. I was talking about having a smart wall, right?

And and I get this phone call from some dude named Paul Mlucky and and I'm like, you know, he's like, I got your smart wall. And and that began that began a a relationship and and helping those guys. Uh again, same with Palunteer, right? You know, I've seen Palunteer for a really long time.

you know, even back to my days when when I was in the CIA. So, our ability to integrate and work together and and and and the unique thing about some of the technology that we're working on, this cutting edge stuff, is it actually can potentially be a force um uh uh multiplier for other systems um as well.

And so, so the name of the game is to be able to integrate and make sure the command that we fit into the command and control infrastructure and ultimately our sensor can make every aector uh better. So, so this is, you know, exploring those areas as we explore the kill chain and and all of our suite of products.

U making sure that again at the end of the day, we see farther, right? We see farther than everybody else and we give that war fighter more time. And when you have more time, then you can decide, wait a minute, which tool in my toolkit do I want to use in order to in order to deal with this threat?

And and the more time you have, the better it is. And when you have bombs dropping on your head or people shooting at you, even if it's five to 10 more minutes, that's an eternity. And and to be able to give that time back to the war fight is what we're focused on.

Uh what's it like uh for people that are starting their career on the public sector side, whether it's intelligence or something like uh uh down at the border like are do they do they have a feeling that that they have like the tools are great or are they still or is the sense if you're if you're actually op you know the the one needing to operate and use these tools that they can and should be a lot better.

I I look it depends on which entity you're talking about. An organization like the CIA which is which is which is geared towards helping the pointing end of the spear whether that's the case offer that's collecting the information or the the person doing a a covert operation.

There is a there is a belief in that you have entities like Inqutell which is focused on bringing in new technologies in to help the war fighter.

Um, you know, when you look at some of the special forces units that are really good at adapting and making sure the our our boys and girls in in in those units have what it needs, it but but it's not it's not uniform.

And we always talk about how the procurement cycles of getting the right thing in the right hands matters. And and here's where some uh startups that are that are VC bay based or coming out of Silicon Valley, don't get wrong. Like we talk about these long cycles, but guess what?

the stuff has to work out of the box when it comes to when it comes to getting in the hands of of our of our military.

It has to work every time and and so that the training and evaluation matters and that's what adds to some of that time uh of getting those getting those equipment and it has to work with within our system.

So I think if you talk to someone on the border or first in their in their um uh early in their their career, they may be frustrated with the lack of some of the tools, but some of the problems is that that tool has to be, you know, be be tested and it has to have the cyber security to defend against u the the Chinese government.

Um well, talk to me about the path to program of record. You have this radar contract, more money coming from the House approval. Um the the typical story that I hear from a lot of defense tech startups is they get a SBIR and then they sprint towards program of record.

Obviously over the long term you want that durability of re revenue that you can underwrite a massive manufacturing facility so you can be making this and improving it every year. Uh what is the net what does the future of the company look like for you?

Well look look all all those things are true and and we're we're far down we've engaged with all of the the branches on this. We're at certain levels of the of the buying process. And you know, it starts with a user Yeah. wanting your thing. Yeah.

And if you have users wanting your thing, then it makes it a lot easier in order to connect the dots and put the money that that you need, right? And and so, look, I I I use the annual example. when they did their first uh border technology, that was a $10 million appropriation in um in in the budget, right?

That led to one of their first program record. Um and so so that's that's an example of of how you get there.

If you have a product that works, if you have a product that is doing something unique and you have a user wanting it then and you've demonstrated that capability in the most uh the difficult environments to operate, then guess what? finding that path to to program a record um is not as difficult.

Um and again, I'm not trying to act like it's like it's easy. It's not. But but being able to line up all of those things is something that we that we have experience with. Yes. Well, congratulations. Thanks so much for coming. This was super fun. The chat The chat loves you. The chat loves you. Everyone's going crazy.

Saying Will Herd's my dog. Yes. Thank you for joining. Come back on. have more news or if there's something in the world happening you want to chat about. We would love to do that. Thanks fellas. I really appreciate y'all. We'll talk to you. Have a great weekend. Let me tell you about adquick. com.

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