Joe Lonsdale on AI talent wars, incubating in Texas, and why the real economy is the most underrated opportunity

we are going to welcome him from the reream waiting room into the EP Ultra Dome. Joe, how are you doing? Look at that audio video quality. Fantastic. How you doing? You look younger than ever. You're aging in reverse. The camera is helping as well.

The young the six young kids, I guess, are keeping keeping me young running around with them. My one and a halfyear-old was your competition for this. He was angry I wouldn't drive him in the car. A little baby car. Do you have the most kids of any uh top GP? Anybody got you beat that you know six?

I'm sure I'm sure some have more. I probably you know my wife and I are pretty traditional. So the just with her which makes it tougher to go. We're going to get there eventually. I wanted to ask you about this uh Trey Stevens post.

He said he found a Palunteer branded iPod touch generation 2 that he had custom engraved back in 2009 while digging through a box at my house. Did you get one of these? Do you know the story of this? Is this a Trey Stevens exclusive? Touch from 2009. Actually, I I I have a lot of early Palunteer kind of gear.

Most mostly I have these like giant things we used to carry around like these big computers and uh whatever their cases are called usually for guns. We use them for computers. Not sure about the iPod touch. The Pelican case. You probably the Pelican.

There's like the really serious ones and I the very first time I brought it to DC, we had a rental car. It was like 2005 and I went to the address we were going to stay at. And then there's this very nice black man. He's like, "You boys are on the wrong part of town.

" And I'm like, "Oh, what's this Northwest Southwest thing? " You know, so DC. Um, what was it like early in the Palunteer days? Gary Tan tells the story about uh you're not selling Holiday in software. You got to stay at a Four Seasons. I forget exactly what hotel chains he mentioned. Uh is that apocryphal?

Is that true? When you traveled for business, would you stay at the top tier place? I think the very top of the company would stay at like relatively nice places.

We weren't upgrading to the nice rooms, but there was it's probably like $600 700 versus $200 a night sort of thing, which you know, in retrospect, I think there's multiple ways of running a company.

I do think when you're meeting important people, you had to make sure you're not meeting them at the holiday and that would make probably not be a good idea for trying to to network with the very top people in these in these contexts.

So I think that's listen I think a lot of people waste too much money when they're starting companies. So, I don't want to set a bad example.

The I I I I was I was actually like a top trader at Peter's Fund and then I like brought on my friends to like start this with me because a lot of them I brought on to the to the hedge fund and it turns out they didn't really like finance and so we ended up building out this company and and at the fund part of our comp was you can basically spend whatever money you want if you were one of the top guys there.

So, it was like a very kind of bad place for me to start from in terms of being spoiled already if we have to be honest here. Thank you for being honest. Oh, where should we start? There's a bunch of stuff. I mean, I I I we were just talking to Brad Taylor about this.

Uh Hamont uh over at General Catalyst was saying that like the world has changed. Triple triple double double double for revenue growth is no longer interesting. The only thing that's interesting is 10xing revenue every year. Something crazy. The power law is getting steeper.

I would love your take on just what it takes to be interesting as a startup in the era of AI where if you are in the right market or you're indexed to the right thing or maybe you're selling tokens at a discount, you can get to a crazy revenue run rate very very fast. What are you watching out for?

What are you optimistic about? How does all that play out? I mean, listen, it's definitely a very different world right now because there's so many new possibilities.

is I think we were looking at something uh I I want to out the person because I'm not doing it but we were looking at something that was like going 0 to five this year and I thought it could easily have gone to at least 15 or 20 if not more next year but I thought the team was kind of like a BB plus it wasn't like the very very best people and and that is just insane by the way that that two those two things combined you can grow that fast with something that was like maybe not the very best people having trouble hiring and and I mean the bar is just a lot higher right now and by the way and to be clear that that round will probably get done that.

Oh, yeah. Like probably 100 million at least. Exactly. And I'm pretty sure it will. And it's like it's it's it's Yeah. It's it's like it also raises the bar for everything else.

Like we were looking at this really cool thing in bio infrastructure that could be very important for the future of humanity and for what it could do in the bio world and it's just going to take three or four years.

And these things in bio as you know are just hard and and it's like you know what even though this is so important like we we have to on the on the margin you have to be in like the green fields right now. the very very top AI teams are just so far ahead of everyone.

So, you know, I do think there's like I mean what Hamas says is to to me it's not as much about like exactly the metrics.

I think I think some people like live in metrics and they should and my one of my partners does too and you know my view tends to be like who are the very best talent in the world who has the very best cultures. I mean you see something like cognition with you know 20 gold medal winners or whatever.

Scott used to work for me at a hard after winning you know programming you know competition globally three times in a row and like like like obviously that's like the extreme but the extreme works in AI right it's like so I I think for me it's more about like what is the very best talent and then let's build something that no one else can build and of course yes if it works it's going to it's going to grow insane speeds tell me the story of finding Scott identifying him recruiting him seems like one of the greatest talent acquisitions of all time you've developed a business relationship ship over a long time now.

Uh, how did you even think to back him early, work with him early, any of that? I mean, I mean, to be honest, to be honest, like Scott is a really special and amazing person, but you know, I I hired most of the first 200 people at Palunteer.

Adapar had eight kind of gold medal winners along with Scott who came in at the same time with my friend Vlad Novakoski was helping me at the time. Amazing guy as well. Just give away all my secrets here. People are going to go go get his help now. Um but you got to hide some of these names from you guys.

This is dangerous. Um but but you know you know and then but Scott was one of eight that year and I think another one of them was Alex from scale and he was an intern there too and and you know it was actually very funny. I mean both both amazing people.

I think I think Alex left in a way where we didn't stay as close and Scott left way where we did stay a little bit closer. But even Scott I think he was running around the world and and I I' I'd been in touch. I actually invested in his new thing after that which was not cognition.

Uh just a little bit because I thought it was a terrible idea. And by the way, this is a very good idea. When you have the smartest people in the world, you should invest in their terrible ideas.

Uh just as a as a sidebar, like we went back to 2022 and we met these people who were doing something really dumb and like we kind of want to give money anyway and we didn't. It was out of MIT and it ended up pivoting into cursor. There was other people.

There's another one where it's like I have this chain from yesterday where Coley, my partner, is like forwards it to me and it's like these guys are really good. They're raising seven million like 40 posts. It's 2022 and I'm like oh god it's just we all think it's a dumb idea.

I'm like we can't we can't keep doing dumb ideas guys. And then it turns out they pivoted and they're raising a five billion posts right now. I'm like oh god we just need to like we just need to give smart people money. This is like just like what you have to do. It's so annoying.

But yeah there's there's like the the the bell curve. It's like, you know, on one end just give smart people money, on the other end, give smart people money, and in the middle it's like, oh, like, oh, what's the idea? What's the traction? What's Exactly.

Just like even though it's like actually actively a bad idea, like give them money. And by the way, even the thing that was a bad idea like Vlad, he's doing with Vlad now or Vlad's in charge now that, and he's pivoted to something, it's working, it's probably it's also a unicorn. So, it's like they figured it out.

So, it's just the same like it's just all about talent. And so I lost I lost touch with Scott a little bit and I got back in touch with him and fortunately I've been in the last few rounds of cognition. I wish I wish I'd say as his best friend.

It's it's hard to keep in touch with all the smart people you admire flying around when when we're busy but it's he's someone I really enjoyed getting to know and he's he's someone you know he's really grown as a leader more than I expected.

Sometimes you know people when they're like 18, 19, 20, 21 and and you get one impression of them and you're so impressed but but like was not like the leader personality and now he's just such like a fierce leader personality plus plus you know the global champion thing. So that's pretty amazing.

He's doing he's doing good work. Yeah, we read a Wall Street Journal article about the latest IMO gold medalists and I was surprised because I was uh texting with a GP at a big fund and they were not tracking it. They were not.

Our joke on the show was like every single one of these kids mentioned in this Wall Street Journal article that beat both Deep Mind and OpenAI and got the full score on the IMO, they're going to be getting term sheets, but people weren't tracking it as closely.

Yeah, it seems like when you were hiring, you know, these uh IMO uh winning folks back with Adapar and and maybe a Palanteer, the meta at the time was like you you want to invest in the kid who's like sleeping on a mattress on their floor like sleeping in a closet in San Francisco maybe was like somewhat of a nar like a different different track then even though you can see it becoming consensus now because Scott has you know shown No, it's Scott, it's Scott and Alex and a few others.

But listen, I don't think there's too much alpha left in that in the sense that like when you have all these people at OpenAI and at anthropic and they've raised infinite amounts of money like you know it was a problem for me in Palunteer in 2008 2009 when Meta and Google it wasn't even called Meta at the time started giving 100k bonuses to these kids out of the top schools because we had like a monopoly on on just the playbook for the top 20 universities and they started just like giving like 100k bonus that's insane and like now it's literally like 100 times that for these other I mean there's there is some alpha I'm not going to tell you all my secrets in the show unless I'm required to you tell me I oh you are required alpha left but it's like but it's like it's like I don't think if you want to tell every investor tell everyone you can text us after the fact the real secrets and we'll keep them private how are you um how are you thinking about uh you know you've obviously had numerous plays in traditional enterprise software it feels like a lot of public SAS today is has this challenge of transitioning from you know the traditional seatbased model to something more like Palanteer the sort of like valuebased pricing how are you think you know are are you just bearish on public SAS broadly do you think some of them are going to be able to transition Brett Taylor just said it's easier to you know do a a transition your tech your tech business model your tech than your business model especially in the public markets it's it's so funny to live in this world cuz it's like I woke up in opposite land where I was like people just beat the out of me for like a decade for doing the wrong thing the wrong model and suddenly suddenly like how could everyone do that model that's great I guess uh I I I don't I don't actually know if everyone needs to do a change in model I overall I I guess I think the more interesting question is like which of these SAS companies owns important infrastructure and workflows uh that are juxtaposed to other value they can capture with AI and then also still has the technical culture to do that.

So this is like a motion at Adapar I'm working on really hard as an example I started addar 15 years ago. It has over $8 trillion in the platform. The core infrastructure business is still growing.

Infrastructure SAS business is still growing at like you know 25 plus% just that core and there's all these things on top of it starting to grow uh because it just touches everything when it provides value for wealth managers.

And so I think to get that business growing 40 or even 50% potentially, it has to like build really strong AI teams and workflows that take advantage of where it is. And I think there's going to be a bunch of SAS companies that do figure this out in the next few years.

And those are going to be really valuable companies. And then the ones that don't figure it out at all, there's probably some danger that they even lose the mode of their core thing to begin with because it's going to be too easy to copy or something if they're not if they're not like scaling it.

So, so, so I I I think I again think it's like a power law thing where some of these are actually worth a lot more and then most of them don't have the talent to do it.

Yeah, it's been fascinating watching the the narrative shift from the foundation model companies are going to eat everything to the foundation model is going to commoditize.

There'll be a couple application layer companies to the idea that AI would be sustaining in enterprise SAS because you actually even if you have a semi-technical culture, you don't need to train a foundation model. you can just go grab an OpenAI API and and implement that. But there's this business model tension now.

And if you're stuck in your business model, uh there's going to be a lot of startups that are counterpositioning against you and you're going to be kind of screwed.

It's it's it's interesting because I do think if you own the customer really well, you cut out these things much more easily, but you're going to have to go faster. The startups are going to eat it away.

There's so many areas where we're kind or the system of record or some sort of datab like Sakotra as a company I'm in. It's like a great system of record for the insurance space and it's took a long time to build. It's a bunch of palenteer talent.

They're really coming into their own system of record now which insurance is very slow and then they're trying to add the AI in before all the new AI things that people are funding and it's it's I think it's pretty interesting. I think the system record has a very good chance of winning but that's a question. Yeah.

How are you thinking about macro broadly?

I feel like everybody's I mean every asset all-time highs, gold, Bitcoin, the I like I like I like the I like the meme I like the meme that says printer is coming with you know he's dressed up as as as Lord Stark of the Northter is yeah but but but for your angle it's probably generally better use of your time to like think about you know the opportunities at the early stage today you could incubate a company you could fund a company what is the I am I am I'm incubating a lot listen I started incubating a a lot more in 2021.

Partially cuz I was just so annoyed that everything was like insanely unreasonably expensive and they have and you kind of have a monopoly on the first couple rounds, right? Is the Yeah, we probably were too generous letting friends in.

I'm always just like I have these business friends who are just like much more hardcore than me and just like just like very sharp elbows and kind of even a little bit nasty and like I'm I'm tend to like just like to everyone around me to make money. So I probably should have taken just only myself the first two rounds.

That's especially seronic. I should have done that but whatever. We still we own plenty of it. Um it's it's fun to start things that are important for the country and that win and we make enough money for everyone.

Um but no, we we do do the whole like big first round ourselves now just cuz that's the right thing to do for the fund and then like do a lot of the second round.

Um and listen, I think building is still the I mean even right now today you guys tell me I'm seeing AI rounds where like I'm really happy if I get 15% in a series A of a really hot AI company right now.

I think I got 16% something the other day by overpaying and I I think it was the right thing to do and it's like but but I mean I've seen a lot of things where I get 5% and I'm or 6%. We just talked to Brett Taylor. He raised 350 million a10 billion valuation like that's not a lot of dilution.

It's going to be hard to build a huge position in that company and that's a one-year-old company like and these are happening all the time. I mean he's special but yeah it's still a there's a special the specialist ones I only have two or 3%.

I'm really happy because I think they could be hundred billion dollar companies. It's it's very weird. It's different than it was. Uh talk to me about the the early stage uh startup market in Texas. Obviously, you were in San Francisco for a long time, buddies with Gary Tan, co-workers at some point.

Uh Gary's leading a revitalization of Y Combinator. Is there something adjacent? Like if I wanted to go talk to 50 young people building startups, the next up in Texas, like where would I go? who would I be talking to? So, and and I've been fighting for California to fix itself for a long time.

Gary's an old friend obviously from our fraternity days through Palunteer and I think he's come more to my point of view on these things which I really appreciate. He's doing a good job. Uh who used to argue a lot. Uh you know, it's Yeah, there's a lot of history there. He's Gary's Gary's crushing it.

the the the thing about Texas, there's a few things. I' I'd say if you want to build like the very top AI startup in the cloud, application layer, model, whatever, like doing something really hard and new there, you probably should be in San Francisco today. Like that that's just where the talent is.

It's a very strong network effect. I would love it if it wasn't, but it is. And and it's there and that's so so so why what do you do in Texas? Well, I think we have we like I mentioned Seronic earlier.

I think if you're building in the land of atoms, if you're manufacturing, I think that's probably the most important company in the country for the US Navy as as well as doing very hard things in robotics, very hard things in in software around it as as applies to defense.

We do have like, you know, 10 or 15 of the very best AI software people for that there. So, I I think what you're seeing in Texas is it's a really good place to manufacture. You have a lot of the best people like Boring Company, a lot of the top SpaceX talent, others are coming out here.

Um, I think you have a lot of things that go really deep in healthcare here. Uh obviously MD Anderson in Texas is one probably the best cancer center in the country alongside Memorial Sloan in New York.

Uh and you have just a lot of other really deep kind of healthcare research, healthcare services groups, healthcare services. Uh you there's multiple multi-billion dollar new companies in healthcare here uh there.

So and and and I and I do think like like when I was talking Reed Hoffman, I was trolling because we have different politics like where do you test your like self-driving trucks? And of course he tests them in Texas.

I mean, if you're trying to like do things, you know, if I'm trying to like automate, I think one of our companies that I'm really bullish on is uh bunch of Ximo guys and they're automating construction with excavators and they're going to like automatically run all sorts of construction and quaries and other things.

And of course, they're doing it in Texas. So, so Texas is just like a great center for industry, for building things in the real world, for robotics talent, for defense talent, for healthcare talent. It's it's it's it has great AI talent, but it's not going to compete with like the next new AI models in San Francisco.

San Francisco right now is is just is just obviously an awesome place for investing for that type of stuff. My my current like understanding of the startup like micro worlds is that uh you're you're still probably going to be doing a road show on Sand Hill Road or in San Francisco.

Uh when you're later stage, you're going to be talking to crossover funds in New York. uh you're going to be in DC if there's a lobbying component, but then you're going to need to build your company wherever makes sense. And for certain industries, Texas makes a ton of sense.

And uh yeah, for for for a lot of things in the real world, a lot of things in healthcare, Texas is by far the best place to do it. It's it's it's listen, I love you can go to the government.

It's not like they agree with me on everything, but you can go to them and you can talk and they're reasonable and they respect you and you go back and forth. And you don't have to be a Republican or Democrat to do it, by the like they actually it's like you can't they actually care about business succeeding.

It's very cool. It's like it's a new idea to me to have a government that has a group like wow how do we help business succeed? It's really great and then you can get things done and it's reasonable. So I definitely like building things here.

Jordy uh without giving away too much alpha uh or feel free to put people down the wrong path. What do you think is the most under underhyped uh trend adventure right now? Obviously AI is just drowning everything out, but feels like could be at the, you know, beginnings of a new robotics wave.

But how how are you seeing it? Yeah, I'm really interested. You say robotics, I'm really interested in the stuff going on the real world using AI, which I think is like a whole new area that it's still early, but I think you're going to I think it's just like a much bigger part of the economy than people realize.

So, for example, if you can do a certain part of construction automated with bedrock, like I think people don't understand like that means you can run a query better and there's $100 billion dollars of queries and if you can make quaries have higher cash flow that's worth like it's worth tens or hundreds of billions of dollars.

I mean, it's just like and there's like there's like so many things like this where the real like the real economy is like 85% of the capital and that's all about to be transformed and I think people underestimate like how much we're going to need in credit to do that.

how much just like just like just like how much big stuff's going to happen that you can create in the economy in the 2030s there. So, you know, even stuff like Boring Company uh and like and like automating that and making it much much much better.

It's obviously using modern AI and other modern technology as they iterate with engineers on it and it's just really impressive how much cheaper you could do things, how much better you could do things.

So, so I think that's underhyped and under misunderstood just because it's maybe takes a couple years longer to really get out there and start spreading quickly. But I think I think it's just like much bigger than people realize. And that's one of my favorite areas.

I guess the other one, you know, I think in general people spend too much time on like the super giant companies. Like people call them the infinity stories or the things that could be worth trillions.

And I talked to some of my friends who are running very big funds and they're really only interested in something that could be worth trillions of dollars and have all the top talent.

And it's it's almost like I think I think one of them is is a good guy, but he said to me, you know, I want to be in the room with the powerful people doing the most important things. And I think there that's like an instinct of a lot of our top investors right now.

And actually I think there's going to be literally like a thousand like 5 to$50 billion companies in like so many niche application areas that do need you to build out the workflow, do need you to build out the operations and do need you to kind of go after the different service areas of the economy. Yeah.

What about it?

It feels like, you know, when you look at like Palunteer, Adapar, Open Gov, it feels like you've had a lot of success with companies that were very under, you know, not didn't have a ton of like crazy hype and and did the kind of like behind the-scenes heavy lifting to get to the point where you could have a massive outcome or or be really uh critical to an industry.

Are you do you think there's not enough of that? Like it it feels like a lot of every company gets hyped, you know, incredibly quickly now if they're talent dense and are you still like trying to find opportunities where you can just kind of quietly build in a category for four or five years?

Yeah, I mean I think I am building a bunch of stuff that's not really that hyped right now that's using AI that's that's going to change these different categories.

And there's this like when you look at the talent out of Palunteer, it's a lot like the talent out of PayPal except on a bigger scale in a lot of ways cuz Palanteer had many more years to compound with the very top talent.

And so you have things like random things like like Candid is just like probably do I don't know they want me to give their numbers on on this show I guess but it's like they're doing they're doing healthcare billing. They're growing really fast.

they're going to do, you know, they're going to get into the billions of of revenue like within the next few years probably and and and it's just like just like I guess, you know, it's a $280 billion space and there's not that much hype around it and it's just like wow, this is like this could be absolutely this could be like a hundred billion dollar company in the early 2030s and and almost no one will have heard of it and it's like there's just so much stuff like that right now which is is pretty fun.

So, I mean I I I think I'm really bad at hype. I think Palunteer eventually got hyped like despite being us being bad at it. Um which is people like I'd say like Seronic's an example of something that you know got a ton of hype, ton of capital, a ton of attention really quickly.

Yeah, that that that that did I I think we did get a lot of the right talent and we were kind of the right place, right time where there's no one else who was doing this for the Navy and had like and no one else who had like that density of of talent and operational like Dena's just such an amazing and such a fast CEO and he brought in kind of other co-founders who were also really top people.

So I think like Andreal they just had so many of the best people right place right time going hard. So I guess that got hyped earlier at night. I would have expected that's fair but but most of the things I'm doing are not like that. Yeah that makes sense.

Do you think there's any positive knockon effects of the insane capex that's going into the AI foundation model world? Like we saw Sam Alman say he's going to build 10 gigawatts. Mark Zuckerberg saying he's doing a gigawatt. Elon just did Colossus 2 it's a gigawatt.

And the interesting thing to me is like this is in some ways like the like you know Seronic Palunteer and SpaceX like those are American dynamism companies but I if you're talking about re-industrialization and just making big things in America doing stuff that requires government approval like Elon's like Colossus 2 across three different states like that feels like that unblocks some crazy stuff and then it's going to be easier to work on healthcare or work on automated truck Very good.

No, you're 100% right. Um whether or not it's a bubble and whether or not they should be investing this much money. Uh I'm not even going to comment on because I think it's just like really good for America that they're like practicing building these things at this scale. You're 100% right.

They have to fix some of the permitting stuff. Y they have to create all this infrastructure we can use now for advanced manufacturing. We can use the advancements to make things cheaper to do at scale for building related things in America. We're going to build a ton of stuff on top of this.

I mean for me I just love it because you know I talk about the different levels of AI investing where it's like zero is energy infrastructure one is chips two is data centers three is the models four is software infrastructure five is apps and services and like I'm mostly doing things at five and some four but but by people doing all the stuff at the bottom with insane amounts of money that makes my life very easy it makes everyone else's life easy too so this is great for America yeah for so long we've we've heard like oh America we c can't respond to DJI GoPro got roasted oh we can't respond to unitry maybe Elon will figure it out.

And it's like I feel like we're getting close to like no, you can actually marshall $10 billion of capital, set up a massive facility in a couple months and get approvals and do the thing that you need to do to build a ton of stuff in America. I I think I think this is really really good.

I'd love to see a wave like this for bio next decade as well because right now our bio regulatory apparatus is completely effed up. There's been some really strong hit pieces in the journal recently. There's some huge messes there.

But it's the same sort of thing where if you could like take this energy, apply it to that infrastructure and and and you know, hopefully apply to some breakthroughs we're going to see there to own it like like but the fact that America can still do this, these companies can still do this, it's it's awesome and it's makes us very bullish.

Yeah. You had a pretty viral post yesterday responding to Nick Huber who was taking taking shots at the great uh citizens of Austin. Going after Austin yeah. Yeah. And and it turns out the photo was from like after school ended. So like very clearly I see I could totally tell it was a joke photo from ago.

But but I wanted to ask something. You said, "Sorry, Nick. Many but many of these people relaxing in the nice weather in our hometown are the spouses, mistresses, and children. Where did Where did you Where did you get Where did you get number two? Number two there. Where did that come from?

He was trying to his whole post was like, "These people are lazy. I'm going to outsource them for $5 an hour jobs to the Philippines. " and and it was like an anti-American kind of like negative post.

And then so my clapback is actually our US employees are are so wealthy and so successful and have built things so much bigger than anything you're doing that they can afford to have their families relaxing and and mistresses.

The joke the joke of mistresses is they're so wealthy that maybe they have mistresses they're just relaxing in the sun while they're working because they're creating so much wealth. We don't need to outsource to the world slop.

we can we can have great wealth in this country and great success and don't make fun of my city. So it was it was obviously a joke but some people some people got really sensitive about that. So your masterful poster yeah used his own tricks against it. You did you did I was a strong ratio. I appreciate it.

I it was like this is so it's a Jewish new year and I was like stepping out of the the synagogue service and I was just like I probably should have stayed in synagogue and been on my phone and been on my phone. It's dangerous when you give me like a little bit too much free time on a day. It's dangerous what happens.

Well, never stop posting. Never log off, Joe. We enjoy your posting. We've enjoyed your appearance. Thank you. Yeah. I would actually like I think X would like it broadly if every time Nick Huber posted, you just quoted it and dumped on him because he's always leaving something open. Oh, yeah.

For I I wrote I hurt him cuz he like has these really angry replies and I was I I thought it was kind of a joke slapback, but I think he was like pretty offended. So, if he's listening, I I didn't mean to be offensive. I appreciate his hustle porn, even though I disagree with attacking America.

He he he knows what he's doing. He's getting in the arena. It's purely it's just he's rolling around in the mud. He's going to get a little dirty. It's going to happen. But thank you so much for taking the time. Come back on anytime. Uh have fun hanging with your kids. We'll talk to you soon, Joe.

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