Kevin Rose on social media's death by AI bots, the future of personal software, and why CS degrees may be obsolete

Good to see you. Thank you so much for taking the time. Of course. While he hops on, let me tell you about linear. Linear is a purpose-built tool for planning and building products, meet the system for modern software development, streamline issues, projects, and product road mapaps. How are you doing? Good.

It's great to be here. What's new in your world? What brings you to LA? Uh you know, I've been living here for a couple years now. Was crazy. I was uh actually had a podcast studio. I was talking to some of your crew and it burned down in the Palisades fire. I'm so sorry. Was it Did Am I remembering this correctly?

Your house Did your house not burn down? But it did. It did. No, it burned down. It burned down. Sorry. I wasn't even home and I just saw the smoke and I rushed home and I just couldn't even get back in. So brutal. Yeah. What's the timeline for rebuilding? We've been I mean Jord is in Malibu. I'm in Padina.

We were both like loosely affected, evacuated, but nothing crazy. Yeah. Not going to do it. Just like going to find a new place and but uh I love LA. It's been great to be out here. There's a lot of you guys are here. Great. Um I I bounce up to the Bay Area every once in a while, every few weeks. But yeah.

Uh I' I'd love to I just want to say thank you honestly because uh you're one of the founders who I feel like was an OG and kind of like I don't know at least when I was going through college like was someone that I looked up to, a lot of people looked up to, but I I was trying to think about like what was special about uh your story and I think it was just the fact that I don't know you were really good about telling your story as it was happening.

And maybe that's just like when someone wants to put you on the cover of magazine, you don't say no.

Uh, but I was wondering what that experience was like at the time trying to balance like promoting your business, growing what you're working on, but also like were you aware that you were ser like acting sort of as an educator almost or sort of as like an an inspirational speaker? guy. I just Yeah.

Gary Vee levels of but uh yeah it was I think back then all these social platforms were just coming online. So you know when had Twitter I was literally telling people where you would go. You go to South by Southwest and be like hey I will be at this bar come meet me and people would come and meet you.

Very different use case than what it is today. And that was just kind of when you're you grew up in that environment. It was very much about sharing everything. So, you know, Foursquare was big with the check-ins and and it was just uh second nature to say, I'm building this new feature. Check it out.

And it was kind of a real time bring you along for the adventure. Show people how you the secret sauce behind the scenes. And people, the fans, the users of the platform of DIG way back in the day in 2004, five, six, they loved seeing that kind of secret little um they felt like they were an insider in some sense.

Totally. Totally. Yeah. I I It's interesting. I want to talk about the evolution of social media. We were talking to Brian Chesy about this yesterday.

Uh that it was social media, then it became or it became social, it was social networking specifically to meet real people, then it became social media and then it just became algorithmic media, right?

And uh and there there's a little bit of like I want to be contrarian about it because uh two years ago I was in New York and I did just send the tweet, hey, I'm going to this bar and I had a little bit of an audience from posting on Twitter and YouTube video making and stuff and like 30 people showed up and we just got beers together.

It was like it was like old school Twitter. So I'm wondering like how much of that IRL stuff has actually died. There's the Run Club movement. There's still stuff there. But then at the same time on the opposite end you have the algorithmic feeds the Tik Tok the Soras. And so how are you processing that?

Is it a barbell or are we on some like straight curve to the end times? I I I believe that with the AI quote unquote sloth Yeah. over the next uh couple of years pretty much social media is going to be dead. Yeah.

I I think a lot of it will be agents and they're acting like they're your best friend and just you won't know what to trust. And so if that's the case, it's actually very freeing because you get into a world where okay, I don't trust any of this mainstream everything is public.

Let me find an intimate space to hang out and have real conversations again. And so I like this idea.

some of the the functionality that Alexis, the co-founder of Reddit and and myself are kind of working on the dig stuff that we're just brainstorming is what if you met someone in real life and you pull out your phone and the connection that happens actually shows that it was geoenced and happened in real life.

So you can see oh this is I just don't have these random followers but I'm actually these are real humans that this person has interacted with.

Then it's a a proof of a heartbeat, a proof of a person behind the scenes, which is going to be more and more important long term as these agents are just manipulating us and acting like they're actually our best friend. Yeah. Yeah.

I've noticed you're saying like effectively you could have a social graph that was based on like actual real world proximity. Well, I think it's a gradient of trust. I think when we when we come to social in the future, you're going to say, who is this other person?

And yes, we'll have our household names that we know that's actually a person behind the scenes there. But if you're reading a product review on Reddit, like how do you know that that is a person or a bot or something else or somewhere in between, right?

And I think this idea of a gradient of trust where you say, "Okay, I know this is a human because they've had this in this many inerson interactions.

" And if they're talking about, let's just say an aura ring, they can do a uh what's called a ZK proof or a product at a station where they can say, "I actually have owned this for the last five five years and I can prove it without compromising my privacy.

" That type of grad I still I still every every time I see an a comment or a post that's obviously written by AI and I think I identify it and I just scroll past it because it's not you know if it's taking like the average like it's take if the if the response is effectively like the average response of everything that Reddit has thought about something and then just turning that into a post.

Like I just I don't want to read it, right? I want like opinion from real people that have like thought through what they're saying. Um and but I but I I'm certainly worried about uh you know the boss just like updating their preferences basically with the models and just be like don't use an M dash.

Don't don't say if this then that. It's not this then that right? And then suddenly you can't tell it that it's real or not. And okay, so both of you, I want you to help square this for me because you have this preference for uh interacting with real humans. That's certainly real.

Uh but you also have um probably I don't think you'll be at the front of the line for to scan your eyeball for worldcoin or something like that. And so h how like how do you see the the tension between those?

like you want to maintain privacy and all of the all the human human rights that you get online but also be in a bot-free world like what are the possible solutions that either of you see? There's a ton of them out there right now. Some of them are pretty early days.

I think I think the the ZK proof stuff is really interesting because you don't compromise personal integrity or you have to reveal anything about you. You can actually use math to prove something and and trust that which is huge.

Um there's obviously, you know, the extreme is kind of KYC or eyeball scanning or things of that nature. For certain use cases, if you're interacting with your financial advisor, you want that other side to be insanely verified.

If someone is recommending a product, I want to know that they've owned it for x number of years. There's a bunch of So, it is that gradient. Or if you say, "Hey, listen. I have Crohn's disease. " You want to be able to show up in a subreddit or a forum somewhere and be anonymous, and that's great, too.

So, but we just have to decide when and how to turn on that level of understand. I'm already I'm already thinking about like uh because there's these farms that uh you know agencies that will go to brands and say we're going to we're going to run your Reddit strategy we'll buy.

So, have you owned have you owned the Aura Ring for more than 5 years like we will buy your account there'll be another there'll be another level. I do I I do wonder if there's room for new consumer products.

I was I was uh you know if you shoot uh even digital photos there's the ability to add a cryptographic signature into those photos and maybe that would be a way to prove some sort of humanity without having it be such a reflection of yourself and your in your personal identity but it's more like okay this person's been taking photos that have been cryptographically proved to be taken with this camera and uploaded so we know that they're not AI and they've been doing it for a long time so that there's some sort of like account level trust that happens I really want that to happen.

I think there's a huge problem here where you know I love Google. I love the AI. They're bolting it on to everything and I'm like some of the things I look and I'm watching the demos like do we really like there's a they're like oh there's a gate in the background of your family home.

Erase the gate so it looks more like a hedge in the background. I'm like okay the kids that look at that photo two decades from now be like didn't we have a gate there? Like how did that disappear? No, I had I had a weird thing.

I had I had something with uh my kids where uh our nanny like took a real video of the backyard and then like used AI to put a have a dragon fly into the backyard and then was showing the video to the to my kids and I you got to tell them like this is not like three and a half. Yeah. They're not gonna understand. Yeah.

So you can say like this is not real but they're like I'm seeing it with my own eyes. How is it not real? How is it how could it not be real?

I really I really try and ground this in like like you saw an AI picture of me but this is like Disney, this is like Bluey or this is like Pixar and because like like even the four-year-old understands that like the cartoon is not real and if you see it on screen and I do I there is that bull case where once once anything can be fake you assume everything is fake and then you just and then I've been thinking of the value of books written before 2021 right totally where if there's there's already this nostalgia for the past.

Think about with with books, knowing that the writer, like I don't care if you used a quill or a typewriter or a computer to write it, but there's some element to knowing that like, you know, uh thousands of hours were poured into, you know, creating this thing and and they were highly intentional about every single word and they they, you know, typed out the letters.

Even if they worked with a ghost writer, it's still like that ghost writer was like spending a lot of time and energy. And then you can now create a book and basically get ready to write boolean before 2021 in every search bar forever. Pinterest is the same way. I bought a domain name human and I never launched it.

But it was one of those things where I thought to myself, okay, I'm going to create a field that doesn't allow you to paste into it. It watches your keystrokes. It verifies proof of human and it's just for sending thoughtful letters to other people.

And it would put a little stamp at the bottom letting you know that you actually typed this whole thing out versus just running it through an AI to get something meaningful. Yeah.

Have you uh have seen the like the the the crisis in in in wedding speeches now where like every wedding speech is just like so I I I recently went to a wedding and and I was playing this game with every all my friends who were driving down to the wedding and I was like okay let's play some bets.

How many weddings will mention AI either in the positive or negative? Like just so you know I didn't use AI and then how many of them will sheepishly acknowledge that yeah I use chat GPT for this. So, we're all placing bets and we're like, "Okay, we think three on average will mention AI. Two will sheepishly admit AI.

" And there were no speeches at the entire wedding. The whole wedding, they were just like, "Yeah, we're just not doing speeches. " So, there were just no speeches and it was awesome. It was just dancing and partying and like and they they they did vows, but they didn't.

There's somebody somebody out there that's doing a wedding speech. They're like, you know, a little nervous. So, they're reading off piece of paper and they go, "Uh, blah blah blah m dash. " Just like themselves this wedding.

What are you what are you um how how are you processing the uh the browser wars which which to me right now is seems more like uh you know uh a group of people throwing stones at the Chrome castle you know just kind of in there glancing off right and and so we'll see if if any of them get traction but uh how how have you been kind of processing uh I I've played with them all I do appreciate how there's finally innovation coming to the browser I like how they're it felt initially like some bolt-on technology where it was like they're just shoving AI in here for the sake of AI sidear and now it's fast like OpenAI's browser is performant like it was snappier than I thought you know when I remember when I was at Google many years ago a lot of the search team obsessed over milliseconds of shaving down the result time to get people to the result that they actually wanted clunking in the early days there on in terms of inference on the AI side but it's getting better uh perplexity Okay.

I think OpenAI did a little bit of a a better job. I've I've used Arc for a while and some of those. But knowing knowing what you know about consumer products, yes, let's say that Atlas is I was estimating it at maybe like it's 1. 1 times better. 10% better. 10% better.

Is that enough to get people to rip out their their current browser? Because there's some there's some categories where something that's 10% cheaper, it's a commodity. Everyone will just switch over to buying the cheaper thing. Inference tokens for B2B SAS, right? Yeah, but your browser is free today.

To get rid of the iPhone, it's got to be 10 times better because I've been dealing with bad speech to text and weird Apple intelligence features and I'm stuck here because you know I have lock in. Yeah. Yeah, iMessage is a great one.

And so, uh, yeah, the question is in the browser, do you think it's like you need to be 10x better or is 2x better enough? That's tricky because as a technologist, I'm naturally drawn to play with these things regardless of whether they're 10x better. I was like, I'm going to switch. Yeah, but you're not.

But you're rational and that you're not that doesn't if if something's 10% better and you kind of know that it's 10% better, it doesn't necessarily mean like, oh, I'm going to switch over all my workflows and Yeah. I just it's there's like this like activation energy. Yeah.

There's there for the average consumer, they're not thinking about what browser they have. Like really truly, they're not. They're like on their Windows machine and launching whatever the default is there. A lot of people use Safari still. People use Edge. People use Edge.

So there isn't there is a group of people here that will say this is I remember when Firefox first started getting off the ground and and there was some massive incumbents IE and others out that were out there and there's this grassroots effort from technologist say this is better it's more secure it's faster all these things and eventually got enough adoption to where it didn't it never took over market share but it was double digits of adoption and I think that's what we'll see with some of the AI and it's table stakes they have so much capital why do they care they just want to have this as a way to gain more market share and it's more things that they can deploy that are slightly defensible that give them an edge over other AI companies.

Yeah. Uh I have a question that I like to ask people that worked on a lot of different projects. What's one project throughout your career or life that you feel is underrated? It's like your baby. It didn't get enough attention.

maybe, you know, didn't play out the way you wanted, but you still love it and uh and want We asked Gabe Why from uh Mischief this and he told us this wild story about uh doing a ship of Thesius thing with a sink in the MoMA or something like that. It was crazy.

But are there any projects that you think like, okay, if I could if I could get hop in the time machine, go back to this particular date and run this particular strategy again, that's the moment that I'd want to like dig into again. Yeah.

Well, I we we had a a product called Pounce that was a competitor to Twitter way back in the day and that had probably uh an additional seven or eight features that are now just built into Twitter. Sure.

And a lot of uh there was other there was other um kind of competitors at launch that were more business focused and I think if we would have gone that direction it have been a massive product.

The one that I would say was the the the funniest in my uh kind of product building experience over the years was back in 2005, early 2005. I created for the first time the ability to vote down comments and have them auto collapse in. Oh. And so they would just show the top line. Yeah.

And so we wrote it back on that software that if it had five down votes, it would auto collapse a comment in. No one had done this before and it's fine. Someone would have figured out how to do it, but we launched it first.

This was before Reddit had it and it came out and we thought there was a massive bug because we we went to the story and it had 200 negative like 220 some negative votes on it. I'm like that's impossible because it collapses after five. And so we did a bunch of debugging.

We found out that actually what people love is to expand a shitty comment, look at it and be like, "Yeah, that guy is an ass. " And then and then bury it down again. And we had never discovered that human behavior would lead us in that direction. And we're like, "Oh, people love they love to hate people.

They love the dunk. " So that was like the first time I'm like, "Oh, the internet's horrible. " So, how are you how are you processing the fact there's like three or four direct Twitter competitors now that seem large and scaled and sustainable? I remember the What are the threads threads?

But is Blue Sky I would love to know Masedon and Blue Sky like actual Blue Sky around 30 million activives a month or something like that now. Yeah. But but decline is it declining? No, I think it's working.

The main thing is like I remember uh there was someone who launched like a paid Twitter at one point that was going to be all like API driven.

There were a number of folks who were thinking about like the next version and maybe we maybe it goes back to that uh they were only 10% better and in fact getting into your ideological echo chamber whatever that is is is a 10x better experience. But how have you been processing this?

The the fragmentation of like how short form the answer isn't just add more features. It's like something about the community. Well, I I listen I think we're entering into a world of personal software. I think this idea of vibe coding is going to be taken more and more seriously every single month that goes on.

I like that there is a right now as someone that studed two years of CS and then couldn't wrap my ADHD around head around all of it. I dropped out, but I'm a a proficient kind of senior coder right now with cursor. Yeah. And six months from now, I'm just going to be able to do anything I want.

And then the average consumer will be able to do anything they want, kind of Wix or like, you know, Squarespace styles for websites, what they did for websites in a year or so from now.

So, if we're going to have personal software all over the place, you're going to see millions and millions of more apps and products that hit the market. It's a it's a actually a a beautiful thing in that the entrepreneur will have more control over their destiny than they ever had before.

They won't need to raise venture capital or they'll do it at much higher valuations because they'll have product market fit first. So VCs are screwed which is actually awesome because it's putting the power back into the creator's hands.

And I think we're going to see all of these little microcosms, these little tiny sectors of very personal, intimate, human-driven conversation that may or may not bridge together via decentralized infrastructure that ties all the connective tissue alla master mastadon or or a blue sky or something that is like piping it all together.

We'll see. But I believe there's going to be a lot of value mining that because if you go to a subreddit that's like Japanese woodworking with several thousand people, you don't it doesn't need to be 10 million people. It just needs to be a thousand that deeply care about a topic to extract value from that topic.

And the more of that gets built and gets launched and creates these smaller communities, I think it the better it's going to be for the world because we will have real information created by real users sharing very intimate things with each other. Yeah.

Do you think that's just like the the long tale of software innovation just kind of arises and so in that woodworking you know sub subreddit or community they'll have their own app and they're shared between them and even though there might only be a few people that are actually coming with the the ideas or identifying the problems to solve once they build it they can actually build it for a low TAM and still the other thesis that I have is that companies that historically would never hire an engineer will hire an engineer and the example is like Tyler here who builds a bunch of software that we use to run the show and like the TAM on the software is like one like we are we are the only company in the world that needs the software that we have.

You could never sell this as a SAS company but for us it makes sense to hire somebody who can build this cuz we built you'll see like we run the show off of this so the whole team can follow along like where we are in the show.

No other you know maybe a handful of companies in the world could like kind of get value out of this but it's so purpose-built for what we need. We also built like an ad platform that like tracks everything for our partners and again like never would have there's not really a market for that.

Uh and so I think you'll see a lot of companies that are like okay like we're not a software company but we can just build our own software uh for in categories like we still use a lot of SAS right and so and we get a lot of value out of it and we're not going to like build our own version of of linear right or CRM.

No, no, maybe. But I think it's going to be much more purpose-built for very specific niches and then we'll still be pulling the the the the products that exist. It's like we're only using software for completely net new problems that are low TAM. Well, or just something that didn't quite fit your mold.

Like if you had Salesforce and you're like, "Oh, we customize the crap out of it. " It's still going to be customized Salesforce. It won't be your own thing. And now you have the ability just to build your own thing and in like a day, which is crazy.

Yeah, the the the thing that we've seen uh that with vibe the state of vibe coding today is like you can build the the v1 extremely fast then the actual maintenance is like a real like is is uh ends up being like if it takes you 10 hours to build it might take you hundreds of hours over I think that problem is going to be solved very soon I had uh I interviewed the CEO of Verscell u recently yeah Grim was great and he was talking about this idea of vibe check which is just like an agent that is deployed to check your code and actually go in and fix bugs and actually get it to scale.

And the the beautiful thing about engineering is these are all they're not subjective realities like they all have problems that are defined that have an answer. The bug the the bug should go away.

The code should scale like so we can solve this you know it's not like finding the next cancer drug or something a little bit more obscure. Yeah.

where where uh if VCs are screwed uh maybe not today but in the in the future where where are you most excited to invest and what do you think the role of today and what do you think the role of a a VC actually looks like in a decade yeah so I mean I wear two hats I'm a partner over at True Ventures we we're we're managing a little over four billion so we have a lot of companies I think VCs are um they they are very much needed yeah exactly but here we go all right I got one.

There it is. $4 billion. I love it. I was wondering if I was going to get one today. This is fantastic. Thank you. Takes one big number. So, uh, one big number. So, four billion.

Um, but the the companies that need our funding more than anything else right now are hardware companies because they have they actually have to bring a product to market. They have the tooling. They have all the prototypes.

They there's a lot to put and and we, you know, we've done we did Ring and uh uh Fitbit and Pelaton and all these great companies. And we saw it was hundreds of millions of dollars to get these companies off the ground and to scale. Now on the software side, it's different.

It's different because I can we can see Vibe coders creating these things getting to their first 100,000 or 500,000 users never raising any capital getting revenue and now guess what that valuation jumped up from a $10 million pre to a 50 to a 75 or whatever it may be or they don't raise capital at all which is great.

have that lifestyle business. Bring in 20 million in ARR SF mayoral candidate that is focused on freezing seed valuations. There you go. It's like the Zoron but for Zoron the Zoron of SF. It just says like the first round you raise has to be at a 10 cap or less.

On the hardware side, how are you thinking about AI wearables, AI devices? There's been we're in this kind of like primordial explosion. Lots of big players working on stuff, lots of existing players. I mean, Apple has a massive portfolio, but what do you think? AI wearables are insanely creepy.

I think if you uh feel like you should punch someone in the face for having something on, you probably shouldn't invest in that company. The the idea that something is always listening 24/7 just breaks down so many social uh contracts that we have in place today with other humans.

Um, there are some that I have seen that have not launched yet that are really trying to figure out how to navigate that space in a thoughtful way that preserves privacy but also gives you the extended functionality of having a second set of ears for what you're doing.

And I think those are yet to launch and they're going to be really cool. Yeah, it's it's interesting that a lot of the or at least some or at least one uh AI wearable is saying it has to be always on.

you actually can't turn it off because there's no friendship that you have in life outside of yourself that is like an always on friendship, right? Like I don't have perfect information parody with my wife and that's part of like our relationship to catch up at the end of the day and that's okay.

Like there's nothing that says it has to be on like it is a very clear product decision to say and I think some of the ones coming down the pipeline will be like you can tap you can pro you know trigger it to come on and and interact with it and then turn it off so that you're not what about less of like the wearable space and more of like just traditional consumer electronics that could either uh kind of like add AI features on and actually see acceleration uh versus completely new formats like in you know are you seeing pictures for like picture frames or or or you know new new like the next generation ring that you wear or something that's not necessarily this wearable that's always on talking to you but just there's a new problem that you can solve but you need a hardware to instantiate it absolutely I I think that we're in the early innings of this um especially when it comes to personalized health and a bunch of other things you know I was on I was on the board of Aura for several years and I was there incredible business too yeah it's wild the numbers.

Fantastic. I've been insanely thrilled at the growth that company's seen. And I remember that was such a good example of a business that was like it from my view was like focused on biohackers which small Reddit audience type thing.

It was like I was around in college, you know, looking up like what obscure things can I take that aren't illegal that will make me crush it on this test. And yeah, there was a period where they were just working with like small health podcast. This is this this is what I did there.

So basically my job with Harpit, the CEO at the time was to go in and basic he said go find me all the different biohackers. So you know Peter Tia was on there like all Yeah. Ben Greenfield, Tim Ferris, like Dave like all of them. We would go and figure out can they invest? Do they want to be advisers?

Can we get them a ring and this was making that jump from Gen One to Gen two hardware made it a lot smaller. And then we worked with Matt Walker from the Berkeley Sleep Lab to get his algorithms on there to really have the best in class sleep algorithms and that was a a huge game changer.

But a lot of AI functionality will be coming to these devices to better understand things like blood pressure and a whole slew of other things that will eventually be able to plug in including uh your genetic polymorphisms that come in from your genome to really understand who you are as a unique individual versus just a blanket for everyone.

Yep. Rank these three buckets that we've been talking to. We talked to uh early stage founders who are uh green field project and they have AI tools and they can build a company that's AI native versus uh growth stage companies maybe they're at a billion dollar unicorn already.

They're still in founder mode might be a little tired but AI is re-energizing them and they're able to layer on AI. They're not like what is this AI thing? They're aware they used Chad GBT the day it came out. And then there are the public companies.

Maybe they have a professional CEO and they have to go through a real business model transition. How do you see each bucket fairing? Where are you most excited? It really comes down to the leadership at the senior level. Like if your if your seuite has a lightweight I like chat GPT vibe, you're not deep enough, right?

And so it's I but I you know what happened with with all these tech companies where they are really reducing staff to come in and say okay this next generation is less heads more specialized and the more of the orchestrator of the AI um versus uh just these massive payrolls and we can do more with less.

I think you see that with startups now where the products that they're building and shipping. I I met with a startup the other day where they judge themselves based on what they call uh tokens in flight.

So they set their AI in like yolo mode and then they go to lunch and they're like how many tokens can we put into flight while we're sitting where we're having lunch and we come back and look at the results. Okay. Yeah. They just fire off. This is the new metric for how they they judge productivity.

It's like how many of these they can fire up? How many chat windows can they fire up at a time to go code on their We do that. We've done over a thousand interviews this year. Obviously some were more prepped than others. I've definitely been like, "All right, I got 15 minutes.

Let me fire up fire up a deep research while I get dressed. " Yeah, that's great. Uh, well, it's 12:30. Uh, we have to move on and talk this was super fun. What uh anything that we missed that uh that that you're excited about or wanted to mention while you're here?

No, I I think this next six to eight months, especially with Gemini 3 coming out that drops and a couple of the models I hear that are being floated around hinted about coming up. We are engineering is unfortunately for the last, you know, 20 years when people say where do I go? What do I study?

You know, a young person would come up to me and like what's the future look like? I was always say to them CS like computer science. No, no, no doubt in my mind. That's not the case anymore. You don't think so? No, it's just not. Coding is a solved problem.

We just don't know it yet and it will be in the next few months. And I know everyone's like bugs scale. Yes. Yes. Yes. Those are great problems to have. But is it not still worth studying computers if you love computers?

I think you should have a light technical understanding of what's possible to know where to bend and break and sand down the rough edges. You're going to need that. But I think it's a different course altogether.

A lot more focus on creativity than it is actually in design and and and the structure of like what is the business problem that you're solving. That is important. I I still lean that uh the best vibe coder is a coder is a is a programmer.

Someone with deep expertise will be able to I think that's a designer in the future though. But yes, yeah, maybe it's a designer in the future for sure. Uh certainly depends on what you're building. Well, uh very exciting and thank you so much for coming by. Thanks for having me. Come by again soon. It's been an honor.

Uh thanks so much. We will talk to you soon and we will move on to our pre-recorded interview with Jeff from Hyperlid. Uh Jeff is one of the most impressive entrepreneurs at the moment in the world right now. I think there will be books written about Jeff and I'm excited for you guys to hear this interview.

We tried to get some of the history of Hyperlid, how it how it got started, why it got started, and then also towards the end of the interview, we get into uh a bunch of different questions uh that we that we uh that we gathered from uh some of our more onchain friends to get an idea of where Hyperlid is going in