Doug DeMuro on Cars & Bids, Tesla's identity crisis, Rivian's EV SUV monopoly, and why he started the world's biggest auto podcast

waiting room to join the show. We can talk about [music] cars and bids. We can talk about cars. We can talk about artificial intelligence. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?

I'm good. Thank you for having me, gentlemen.

Thank you so much.

So great to have you on. We are a technology and business show, but we have your name has come up probably a hundred times independently just when we're talking about

cars. So, uh it's so so great to have you on the show. Yeah, we're huge fans.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm I'm thrilled to be here. I really am.

Thanks so much. Um I'd love to know I mean we were just talking about this uh OpenAI uh shopping research in Chat GBT. It feels like there's really no substitute for uh a watching a Doug Demiro video to actually understand the quirks and the features of the car that you're considering purchasing.

Yeah, I had been I had been critiquing it. The context is like I was trying to use chat GPT to find a specific car. GT3 RS,

a GT3 RS, and it uh fully missed every car for sale on the internet. There are many of them. And it found one

that had sold on Cars and Bids like two years ago. I was like, thank thank you, thanks for nothing. Um but uh good job showing up showing up in the results.

Are you getting any leverage out of AI tools at all for what you're doing these days?

Well, that's an interesting question. Um the the business the guys who are on the business side probably are using AI a little bit more than I realize. Yeah.

From from a content perspective, not really. I I just don't find I don't find for for myself at least, it's quite ready yet to do kind of the stuff that I needed to do. Like finding the little quirks of the cars, it just doesn't have the the knowledge quite yet. Um there and and like you said, nothing quite replaces like an in-person guy. I still think people want to see that at least for now

for sure. There there's also the question of like where should the AI live because there's this there's this war of like do I need a do I need an AI chatbot on carsandbids.com or do I need to be able to take a URL from cars andbids.com drop it into a chatbot and then chat with the page and you know compile some reviews and interact with it that way or will it be at the browser level or will it be at the iOS level and I can just ask Siri uh and all of this is like kind of being thought out across all the tiers of the stack right now. Um, but what on the cars and business topic like what what is the actual incremental gain right now? Like what what is it international expansion expansion, new new features, just more inventory? Like what what is on your like list of wins from this year? And then what are you excited for uh going into next year of like things that you might check off the list?

The the biggest thing we did over the last 12 months, I would say the biggest thing we did is um we added we finally added vintage cars to cars and bids. Um, and so it we used to be just 80s and up cars and I was kind of sold on that. Like I I just wanted to do 80s and up cars what I'm primarily interested in. Um, but our audience was really kind of pushy about it. Some of our dealers who sell with us are like why can't I sell everything here? This is stupid.

And so we changed it. We added 80s and up. But also we've just done a great job of like getting getting everything streamlined. Our goal is to like get cars listed, get them live, get them going. Yeah. Um, I think of all of the auction or car selling platforms, ours is probably the most

technologically easy, I would say, both to navigate and to sell and to buy. And I think it's sort of the the youngest focused. And so, we really wanted to make sure that our processes reflected that, and I think they really do. Yeah.

Do you have a uh like a grail car in the uh in the vintage category that I I know I know you you don't like the vintage cars, but is there one that would get you to if I had to pick one? Like that's the one you'd want to sell on the on the on the site or maybe even potentially own yourself?

You know, it's funny. I'm myself. I'm not a big vintage car guy, but I do own a Countach, a Lamborghini Countach, which is it's mine is a 1983 model. I don't I mean, it's 42 43 years old. I don't know if people can vintage to me. It's it when I drive it, it certainly feels vintage. Smells vintage. Um, but I'm I'm a big I'm a big old Lambo guy and so having those kinds of cars, old Ferraris, old Italian in general, I think would be cool to have on the site.

Um, but obviously still our biggest focus is sort of on the modern day stuff and I think we do really well with them.

Yeah. Yeah.

Uh, so so many things I want to talk about. I guess uh one question that maybe we could kick it off with is do you think the increased attention around F1 could actually positively impact car culture in America or or is it kind of the opposite like car culture in America's always been so big people are like oh this F1 thing may maybe I should pay more attention to that.

That is a really good question. you're clearly you're a host of a of a podcast where you I that is a really good I I've never thought about that but I think that's exactly right. There's a lot of people who are getting into cars for the very first time because of F1. I have friends I'm on Instagram. I have friends who are at the Vegas race posting pictures who I know are not into cars but like they're they're into F1. And obviously if you watch enough cars drive faster on the racetrack you're going to start thinking to yourself

Yeah. [clears throat] We were so we were at we were in Vegas uh for the weekend and the entire race F1 is like a terrible spectator sport in my opinion. It's just [laughter] like oh they went by.

Oh they went by. Like I if you want to actually I mean it's fun to kind of like maybe sit with the door open to the paddic and watch the TV and at least you [laughter] can hear them go by. But at the entire race I'm just like I just wish I was on the track. I want to be on the track there. So, I actually I think I think what one thing that might happen is more people get into actually tracking and racing cars because they're watching F1 and they're like actually now I actually want to experience this myself.

The the other cool thing about F1, there is a culture component to it like like watching the drivers and the teams and cheering for your favorite engine or team or your constructor or whatever. And that probably will get people into cars too, right? like the just beyond just sitting there and yes watching the cars go by in one corner when they have 12 other ones that you don't get to see anything is not really the most amazing experience but like going for the weekend and like seeing the you know seeing a driver in the paddic or seeing you know the race team or whatever definitely will expand interest and yes you see the cars on the track you're thinking hey I could do this man

yeah yeah how do you think about uh track days tracking track only cars tracking your cars uh I I had the experience we we did a track day a couple weeks ago know, and I was like, of the car budget, I want to spend like 99% on track stuff and very little on like collector cars or fun dailies or any of that. I want it all on the track because it was such a crazy experience. I don't know if that's just like the honeymoon period, but I know you've always been like, ah, I the track is not something that I really collect for. It's not my goal. I want the cool dailies. I want the cool experience of the weekenders. Um, but do you think that'll ever shift for you? Uh, how have you processed it? No, I don't think it'll ever shift for me. I think that the the the realities of rac track driving, it's so much fun, right? It is an unbelievable experience. About a year and a half ago, my friends and I rented out uh Chuck Walla, just just five of us and and spent the whole day just clowning around, which is a ton of fun. However, um you know, it's it's a lot of work. Like, we had to rent a trailer to get us out there. Like, you rent an ambulance for the day. It's like an a day. It's like a real day. and after you finish it, you don't really want to do it again. Like I feel like I'm hot. I'm tired. You've taken big risk with your vehicles and so you're like, "Okay, we we s survived that." [laughter] Um I I just feel like I enjoy it more on the road because um it's just so much more accessible. Like my friends and I several times a year go up to the mountains, you know, an hour east of where I live here in San Diego and just, you know, p around and have fun up there. Or I take I have an off-roader. We on the east coast. I live in the summer. We go off-roading every day. That's a lot of fun. It's so much more accessible than uh like than racetrack driving, you know, which and it's racetrack driving is so costly. I mean, you're you're kind of hitting it on the if you want to spend your fun car budget on racetrack use, you can really spend your [laughter]

Yeah, it's true. Uh is is a cannonball on the bucket list ever? It was for a long, [laughter] you know, I drive I drive cross country every summer, twice twice a year and so it's impossible to drive cross country as a car enthusiast and not think about it.

It's in your mind. It just has to be in your mind. Um, but I have kids now and like I got some money and I I got stuff to lose. You know, I should have done it when I was 23 and and it didn't matter and I just could have gone, you know, bombed cross country. I know you guys had Alex Roy and and and I so respect what he's done and how and then just that that whole thing. In fact, here's an interesting story. The other day I drove to uh the hotel in LA where that finishes the Porino Hotel in

Yeah.

And I pull up there and I decided to get a selfie next to the sign so I could send it to Ed Bully. Canon Bully. Yeah.

And I'm taking a picture of the sign with me and a guy walks up and says, "Did you just finish?" [laughter]

And I'm like I'm like, "No." And he's like, "I [clears throat] did." No way. No way. There was somebody that finished

some other guy comes out of the hotel and also says the same that he had finished the day before and I went must tell you happened constantly. Probably every week there's somebody every few days someone shows up there.

So crazy.

It is crazy that the cops don't just hang out at the Port Aino hotel and just arrest everyone that comes in. [laughter] It feels like at least you can give like a $100 ticket and then just be racking them up if you're you know local municipality that

it should be like a ticket of honor. I got a ticket. I got a ticket. I paid to hotel, you know.

There is a giant plaque there that says like the end of the cannonball. I'm like, what is otherwise a fairly rational hotel? I'm like, what is going on [laughter] here?

Yeah. What about some of those other rallies? Uh, the Gumball. Have you ever thought about doing those or done them?

Not my not my people. Not my people. It's a that's a bunch of like, you know, rich guys who want to put big decals on the cars and get drunk and go to strip clubs between the race. Okay. Okay.

I'm good on that. I'm not big into that [laughter] world.

You had me at decals. I think livery is really hilarious when done properly. Uh

John is John is is been it's been his dream to get full livery livery on his daily all of our partners.

But it's funny because we're podcast and we have as many advertisers as like an F1 team. And so there's a little bit of like a funny riff on that. Uh but if you're doing it super serious, I can see it being a little bit over. Is it true that you have an E450 allterrain like me?

I I did. I sold it and I got a Blackwing.

Oh, you sold it to get Wow, that's the Blackwing.

My wife has is driving our E450 wagon and I am so jealous of her and when we sell it, I think we're going to get a Sienna. So, we're going to probably go in the slightly slightly opposite direction from

So, I I absolutely love the E450 allterrain. Uh, but I realized I jumped the gun because I got a 20 I think I got like the exact same one you got, 2023, 2024, something like that. and it has the seats in the back that look backwards. And I was like, "This is amazing. I'm also a dad. I have a four and a half year old and I have twin one-year-olds now." And I was like, "I'm good. This is going to be amazing. The twin little boys are going to be in the back." And then I look up the rules and it's like they can't be back there until they're like 12. And so it's like [laughter] I'm not going to be driving like this vintage E450. That's I mean it's going to be it's going to be like completely broken down by the time I can just buy a new one then. I So I once uh I I once watched your video, Here's why the Mercedes Metress is the worst minivan [laughter] ever made. And then you know what I did? He bought one.

I was like, it can't be that bad. It can't be that bad. I I bought it cuz I have I have two kids. I was like, Surf Van, I live in Malibu. I was like, Surf Van was you can just pile them in. Uh and it was just it was even worse than than you you kind of went a little maybe easy on them. There's so many little quirks and features of that [snorts] van that are just so bad. It's like, how do we make a big box [laughter] and then make it impossible to to utilize?

Did Did the video not have any have any ability to convince you that I

I like I like I purely I purely like the I like the aesthetic of that of it of it as a minivan over some of the other minivans. I was like,

it definitely looks the best. It's like a sided like looks like an old surf van like that people used to have and it's a Mercedes. It's just it clearly looks the best, but it is not the best. [laughter] um wanted to John and I listen we don't have time to listen to a lot of podcasts because we're constantly podcasting 20 hours a week ourselves but we do enjoy

this car pod is a daily a weekly listen

we do yeah we both we both uh love your your show

and and it's the and correct me if I'm wrong it is actually the biggest automotive pod in the world right now

somehow we became the biggest without

I mean I don't want to say without trying yeah

congratulations

without trying without trying. You can say it. It was effortless.

We didn't set out to be Okay, here's what happened. I I we took a huge investment in the company.

Yeah.

And so I I ended up with a lot of money and and so I was just like, you know what? We're going to that we we came up with the idea to do a pod. And when you're when you have no um when you have nobody that you feel like you have to answer to, you can be really free with the way that you speak. And I think that resonates with people on that podcast. like we insult people, which other people aren't really willing to do as much, like insult car companies or cars. I think people really appreciate hearing that truth. And I truly don't care [laughter] if the autos want to blackball me. Like, it doesn't matter to me anymore. So, it's worked out.

There's also a different thing if somebody like is going out of their way to get you this vehicle that hasn't been released yet and they're and it's hard like to really and then and then you just know when you're recording it like they're going to they're going to see this. You can't it's hard to speak. You got to give a accurate review, but it's hard to like go as hard as you can when you're with your boys on a podcast.

Do do you think that there's a little bit of of a benefit of like people don't buy cars on the day that they're released? Like if you were a movie reviewer and you were like, "Okay, I'm banned from all the theaters. I got to wait for somebody to give me the DVD." Like it wouldn't be as good. But like if you have to wait a couple months to review a new Lamborghini, it's like the the the purchase cycle is going to be a while. And also those have entertainment value beyond just directly purchasing. That's exactly right. That that those are those are the two big points to hit. Number one, even if I'm not up on release day with the car because the automaker didn't invite me to the press launch, doesn't really matter. I can go get it from a dealer when it comes at dealers 60 days later and the video is going to be evergreen for 5 years, the whole cycle of the car. Totally. And also, yeah, I mean, people are going to watch the video beyond just purchasers, so it doesn't even really matter. And I think that's one of the secrets of YouTube. Everybody's so obsessed with being like first to these car launches, and it it [clears throat] is beneficial. It does help. But I I guess when your channel has gotten to the size of mine, I I don't think it's quite as important. Like I'm not sitting here thinking, how do I grow 50% this year? I'm just think how do I retain the audience I have? How do I still make them happy? And being there day one is not necessarily essential.

Have you uh maybe you've done this, but uh reviewing uh self-driving technology specifically. I I was always interested in uh the I I have a Hyundai Palisade as well with a um with a Kama self-driving aftermarket kit in there and it's fantastic and I I I honestly think it's it's remarkable. I've met the founder and uh and I've used it and I trust it with my kids and stuff. I I think it's a fantastic product. Genuinely like one of the greatest modern consumer products in the sense that like for a couple thousand bucks you get something that does something. It's uh it's really really good. Um, but but I was always interested like that aftermarket. It's kind of the only aftermarket thing that you would even need to review, but I was wondering if you've ever looked into like that genre.

No. And I never I had no idea that that one was that good. I've heard about it before, but I had never heard. So like I mean people don't Most people I think are nervous about it. If you're in the tech cool with it, but yeah. But no, I mean I review the ones that come in the cars and but however even then it has become so ubiquitous now that it's almost like reviewing regular cruise control. It's almost not even worth talking about it because they've all gotten to be I mean a RAV 4 has it standard, you know, like it's it's no longer even that interesting anymore. There are obviously some differences between the systems and some are better than others. Um I'm obsessed with the system in my Toyota for various reasons. Some some people prefer I mean I don't like the ones that make you look forward because in my view that's kind of what I'm trying to solve for.

Yeah. [laughter]

But but I understand that manufacturers prefer you looking at the road.

Yeah. It's a difference of opinion between me and them right now.

Well, now now it's like a whole race where every time I talk to somebody who owns a Tesla, they're like, well, I have this hat and this pair of sunglasses and if I wear the hat and the sunglasses, I can use my phone the whole time. And I'm like, okay. Like, you're kind of with the comma. It's open source technology. So, uh they they have a camera that looks at your face and if you look away, it'll say it'll beep at you and then if you look down for too long, it'll dis it'll it'll uh disengage. So, it's driver monitoring. Uh, but it's open source. So, if you know how to program, you can technically just go in there and comment out that line of code and it will never check on you ever again. And it's like I don't know where the liability stands. The company doesn't recommend it, but the whole thing is kind of third party, so it's very questionable. I would definitely leave it on. I would recommend everyone leave it on because I think the driver monitoring is good for safety. But, uh, yeah, it's interesting.

Saw some news maybe a week or so ago that Tesla is going to be integrating CarPlay. Is that was that like a surprise to you? Did you predict that years ago?

No, I definitely didn't predict it. However, um obviously the Tesla owners, despite as rabbit and obsessive as they are, there's this undercurrent of of disdain for the fact that they don't have CarPlay. And also, it's gotten a lot harder to sell an EV in the last month, but also in the last six months and in the last year in general. And so, that's an advantage. You're going to want to have every advantage you can, you know, like. And so I it makes it completely makes sense to me that Tesla's pursuing this and it'll now be on Rivian and of course General Motors who has bailed on CarPlay uh first in their EVs and now apparently generally it'll be on them to see if we if they end up going back. I'm not as obsessed with CarPlay as everybody else. I find some of these automaker systems to be shockingly good. Most people don't even pry them anymore because they're so CarPlay is such a focus. Uh and and CarPlay is great, but I'm surprised Tesla made it such a big thing. Their system is so excellent. It's just like I would just put up with that. But people are just so used to CarPlay that it's important.

It is such a different competitive landscape if you have CarPlay and the native and then also NACS and and and the charging system is now standard. It's like well then you have the the self-driving is the main point of differentiation. Maybe that's about it.

But even then [clears throat] I don't find Tesla self-driving to be like considerably better now that I've been on these other cars. Every basically everybody is caught up. Um and I don't see I I agree. I start to wonder what the differentiation point is. And then you also have this negative point of differentiation for a lot of EV buyers which is Elon and the political not that I'm saying that everybody but certainly there are people who have that opinion like okay that's interesting and so CarPlay back in is definitely like a step in the direction of we need to sell some damn cars.

Yeah. If you if you're running Tesla today what would you do from a what would you do from like a product offering standpoint?

H man I don't know that that that's an interesting question. I all their products are really old.

Um they have Elon is is both their greatest asset and their greatest liability. Uh I would probably do my best to come out with Roadster to try to get some attention on the brand and get some sort of halo car effect like wow this is cool again. Get some

Wait, do you have a do you have a prediction for the So Elon was on Joe Rogan and said that he was alluding to that the demo will be shocking and it will be something where the car basically lifts off the ground. He was saying like he was kind of alluding to it being a flying car, but I don't think anyone expects it to be like a full quadrotor like you know full V tall vehicle, but it's going to have a it's going to have a trick. It's going to have a quirk and I'm wondering if you have any predictions for what that might be. Like we were talking about the Yang Wang jumping and stuff.

It's interesting because at this point it needs to have a quirk, doesn't it? Because when it was announced six years, it's been six years almost exactly, right? It was 19 auto show. um it was going to be this huge thing 0 to 60 and 1.9 this amazing electric supercar. Well, since then 10 other electric supercars have come out, all of which do 0 to 60 and 1.9 and the gangwing is jumping. So [laughter] like

you you better show up with something at this point because you are so far behind everybody else in terms of what they've all got going. Um, and you basically need to have some sort of interesting hook now in order to differentiate yourself from these other products, which by the way, I don't know if you guys have been paying attention, but all the other electric hypercars have been horrible sales failures. And it'll be interesting to see what whether Road I mean, Roadster has Elon and Tesla and all that behind them. It'll be interesting to see whether Roadster can overcome some of the challenges the other ones have faced. Yeah, I I I do think that uh comping the Roadster, I mean, if he can get it out at 200k, that's just a completely different game from a Remat's Nava at a million or or you know, Pin and Firina Batista, like those are just wildly different. And even even if you have the money, I imagine that like the confidence of like a roadster like you're going to be able to take it to a Tesla dealership, get fixed of parts and stuff with a Batista or something, it's going to be you're going to be in crazy hypercar unique 101 world Koigseg level. I no one's really brought that down. Although, you know, Tyon Turbo S, there are a lot of options in that area.

Yeah, I mean, no, you're you're right that no one has really played in the space sub a million bucks. However, first off, I don't think the Roadster is going to come anywhere near 200 just based on got a lot of inflation. Elon's missed those Tesla's missed those price targets before, etc. But also, you know, yeah, the the TYON Turbo, the the Ferrari SF90 has been a huge dud. Like, there are some examples out there of Okay, maybe people aren't really willing to buy anything.

Yeah. Yeah. What What do Do you think manufacturers are focused on sol EV manufacturers like are really focused on or have a plan for solving depreciation with some of these cars? Because like I I I buy a lot of cars. I cycle through them quickly. I tend to gravitate towards cars like I've owned multiple G Wagons because I just love that it's timeless. I know it's going to depreciate but not at a very very reasonable rate. Uh and in that sense it's like a practical buy or it's at least way more practical than buying a fresh TYON and losing you know 50 grand in uh a few months basically. I mean, the only real way to solve for depreciation is either supply or price, right? You can either dramatically lower the price and get more cars out there, which hopefully your supply then evens out, or you just make fewer cars. The, you know, I will say I don't think depreciation has been quite as crazy as everybody else thinks, in part because I don't think the transaction prices were ever where the automakers were pricing the cars in the first place. Right. said the cars had stickers at 50, but when you factored in the tax credit and the and the and the discounts,

they were probably really selling down at 37 and then the however still they are depreciating faster than gas cars and just unbelievably fast in general except for Rivian which has held its value relatively well but still nowhere near something like a G Wagon. Um the only way to to really solve that depreciation problem supply pricing or just increase the desiraability of the cars. Um, but I don't think that's going to happen.

How [laughter] How on How on earth has Rivian maintained a monopoly on the full-size SUV in the electric category for so long? I I was expecting a Cyban a Cybert truck suburban version like immediately and it just didn't happen.

Weird that the other automakers went pickups first and I don't I wonder if they were pressured into doing that because they knew the Cybert truck was coming. But it is so clear when I get asked by people who want a car. I live in California. Everybody's got an electric. Everybody wants electric car. The only thing I am ever asked is, "I want a three row and I want a hybrid or an electric." Yes. And my response is, "Well, you're getting an EV9 or an R1S." And the EV9 is new to the market a year ago. The R1S has been out since 22.

And it's like, yeah, where was everybody else? I mean, GM is screwing around with the Hummer pickup and and the Silverado and the F-150 Lightning at Ford. It's like what people want is just a three row electric and the R1S's are the real success story in terms of holding their value. We sell them on Cars and Bids. They are still not coming under 60 grand, which is a considering that's a three- four year old car, that's pretty good. With a starting sticker of around 80, uh the trucks have depreciated a lot more. There's less interest in them. But yeah, it's wild that Rivian figured that out before anybody else. Everybody was like, "Oh, we're going to start with a sedan." It's like, why? What are [laughter] you thinking? The market on that that stuff.

Yeah. I mean, I guess uh Porsche now has the Cayenne Turbo you just reviewed, but even that's not three row. And and I'm thinking like if you are if you are like the true American family, I have three boys, two dogs, two Newfoundlands. Like I need the the huge 220inch SUV soon. Like or you know the the full-size Escalade, like the Tahoe, like the Suburban. Like this is where I'm going to be. This is my life for the next couple years at least or the two decades. Um like no one's really figured that out. And I thought it was um

I thought it was maybe just like the the laws of physics or something like oh you can't make the battery big enough. But then you see the Cybert truck and you're like, you could easily just make the back like this and you're in business.

Oh, totally. And the Hummer EV and the Hummer EV.

It's so weird. I guess they just saw volume in those pickup trucks and so they decided to go. But totally. I mean, you now have the Escalade IQ also, which is a very not a very compelling product, but it exists and it is another 30. It's clear that they're starting to come.

Even Even the Escalade IQ though, it felt like they shrunk it down a little bit compared to just the full size Escalade ESV, which is the one that you think of,

right? And the interior really feels like that. The interior does not feel as big as that. You come out with a car that weighs 9,500 lbs and is that long, it really should feel a little bit bigger inside. I should be able to play totally pickle ball in that [laughter] and that's not the situation.

Yeah, for sure.

Uh how can you talk about uh European regulators? is I feel like sometimes I see car companies, manufacturers making like what feel to be like nonsensical decisions, decisions that uh at least American consumers are not like saying like hey we want this and I think it can often times uh get uh you know people will point to regulators and be like you know there's actually pressure coming on the manufacturers on another continent and that and uh but how how true is that and and what kind of role are they actually playing We It's That's an interesting question. Not a lot of people think about. Regulation plays a bigger role than you'd think in a lot of stuff. Um, we just heard one this week. Mercedes is canceling all of their 43 AMG cars, which are actually quite popular here in the States. They're very popular. The C43 GLC.

Interesting. Huh.

Those are all going away. And the the reason is that they do not comply with uh EU noise regulations as of next summer. Um, and it's like that's a pretty successful and popular car and they're I I guess they don't.

And so the manufacturers can't create like an like it like there's precedent for creating like a European version of a car like I know the European Metress is some called something else but is actually a lot better than the American.

They must feel that the the US market alone does or or US plus Middle East or whatever doesn't justify the creation of such a vehicle and so it goes away for the entire world. And that's true in a lot there are there's a lot of compliance and regulation stuff just beyond that. But that was an example that came up recently that I was astonished by because it sometimes affects popular cars. We saw it affect Boxster and Cayman, right? I mean clearly Porsche is not really going to be able to continue making these cars as we think. Now they're rethinking that strategy, but it's still going to have some electric component and these regulations are stuff that they're going to have to comply with. It's actually funny because you hear a lot of complaints. The Trump administration has come in and cut a lot of EV rags and and push back on EVs and there's all these complaints. I mean, US regs were never anything compared to Europe. Europe has gone really, really, really strict about noise, about pollution, about emissions, CO2 in a way that is is definitely affecting vehicles sold there and probably does have knock-on effects on cars that are sold in the states, too.

That makes sense. Uh uh do you think it's fascinating that some European regulators are are are pushing to take away cars that people like from European manufacturers while they let the Chinese flood uh the market and and kill their automotive manufacturer uh manufacturers

which is especially interesting because China is doing the exact opposite right China in is has really fenced their market and has really made it very easy for Chinese companies to sell cars and do really well but has made it specifically difficult for foreign market companies to come in and do the same. Meanwhile, cap, you know, free capitalism has has kind of had the opposite effect in Europe. And boy, you go to Europe now. I've go to Europe every year or two and it's amazing. Every time I go, five years ago, a couple Chinese cars. This last time, they are they are flooding. Like you say, it's true in Mexico, too. Uh, and Latin America in general. They make cheap cars that are desirable and they're all EVs, so they fit the regulations. Yeah, it's certainly interesting. If I were the European automakers, I'd be like, "What the hell?" But

yeah, do they not do they not do they need to like 10x their lobbying budgets and say we want to make cars that are fast, loud, and fun and you got to protect us from like I I just don't understand like these are like Mercedes is like a national champion in Germany, right? Like

you would say make make we the environment is more important to us. My guess is they would say you are important to us, the environment is similarly important to us. We have to figure out a way to make this work. But for right now, China is already there where you probably should be, and we're trying to incentivize you to do that. It is surprising to me that they don't have more significant tariffs on Chinese cars and and ways to kind of try to stop that. However, Chinese cars have also done an amazing job of mobilizing, especially Southern Europe, to be able to buy new cars for the first time in a long time. Southern Europe, they don't have a lot of money in a lot of cases, to buy these cars. But these Chinese cars come in, they're affordable, they're electric, it's getting people out of Fiats from 2003 that pollute at ridiculous levels. And you got to assume that you regulators actually are they're like looking at it saying, "Yeah, it sucks that fiat is losing market share, but here we are doing our part for global warming and for the environment, which is a big over there."

I would just hope that that was more of a more of a fight between Tesla and the US electric manufacturers earlier like like Tesla has been and the other and and Rivian have been like options for that solution. you'd think. I mean, obviously they need to bring the cost down, but there's uh I I think that there was a lot of push back to Tesla in Europe uh years and years ago where they didn't think that they should go after that southern European buyer and so they never really got to scale it with like, you know, the the the 2.9 or something, the cheaper version of the three uh to actually get out there or something like that. I don't know.

Right. And meanwhile, BYD is there now with with cars that are this long that cost probably 18,000 euro and it's like dang.

Yep. Um

um I wanted to ask about uh modern cars that

Wait, wait, wait. One question that fits in this last one. Jaguar revamp uh team asked us to ask European manufacturer going all in on EVs uh in a very opinionated way. Uh, do you have any predictions on like firstear sales numbers in the US?

Well, you know, they haven't really shown a production car yet, so I I don't it's hard to make that prediction without knowing, hey, are they going to do SUVs, what price point, etc. I will say, um, they weren't exactly blowing it out of the water before. So, like unlike a lot of people who watched that [laughter] ridiculous commercial and have watched some of their product strategy and kind of laughed at it, I'm not sitting, you know, we we got a lot of comments on our pod, Jaguar, they're screwed. if you go woke, you go broke. We're going to [clears throat] boycott. They were already broke. Like it [laughter] wasn't like they it wasn't like they were out there really lighting the world on fire. So like I think anything is a is a probably a benefit for them truthfully. Um but we'll see how they actually end up doing it. It's already been quite a while and they haven't really announced cars or revealed anything coming. So that'll be interesting. I mean, the brand name is strong, but like, you know, what are you gonna It's just It seems like a far-fetched plan for it to actually work. [snorts]

Yeah.

Yeah. If you're already if you're already broke, why not go woke? I guess

the other problem, by the way, that people don't discuss the the big problem that Jaguar faces is that almost all of their dealers are paired with Land Rover. And so, at the end of the day, they cannot go after the SUV segment to the level that I think a rational company would wish to, right? sit here and look at the success of the Model Y and the R2 or the the R1, but will be the R2 and G Wagons and and just SUVs in general. And Jaguar doesn't they they did try SUVs, but they always have to kind of back them off what I think the market would want a little bit because Land was there actually having the success.

Make an SUV, but don't make it too good.

Don't make it too good. Don't make it too off-roy or too boxy or too cool which is what the market is really obsessed with right now because you know AC literally across the showroom we're trying to sell these things over there and they have a better name and you don't want to try to undercut that.

Yeah. Uh it feels like the other market Jaguar could potentially go after is maybe like the James Bond wannabe but there they're competing with Aston Martin of course

which is not exactly crushing it either.

It feels like they it feels like they are. So I I'd love to know like where do you see Aston going? I mean, the the the Valkyrie is incredible. The Valhalla we saw in person looked really cool. And like there's just some incredible

design issue. My point of view with Aston is like I love Aston Martin. We were we were at F1 with with the Aston Martin team cuz uh our our friends from public are a sponsor and uh I love every single silhouette they do. I think they make cars that look absolutely incredible. But the problem is at literally every single price point for Aston, there's a more desirable car from a Porsche, from a Ferrari. And so it's like that's just really challenging as a manufacturer because you're like, "Okay, we made uh we made the Valhalla." And it's like, "Okay, what Ferrari can you get for a million bucks?" And like how many guys are really going to look at that trade and go for Aston Martin?

I think that Valhalla and Valkyrie will and have been will be will be and have been successful. I think the biggest problem is the volume cars and I think it goes back to something that you said earlier which is um they have significant depreciation and that's not a secret. Well, you buy a brand new Ferrari and you're not going to lose money. In fact, if you're if you're lucky enough to get chosen to buy a brand new Ferrari, you might make money.

Um you buy a brand new Aston, holy crap, you know, used DBXs are already 7580. That's their SUV. Um used are still like 175 and the price point is pretty similar new. And which one would you rather get? Aston, I think, actually makes some pretty compelling cars, even relative to rivals like Lamborghini and Ferrari and Porsche. But you go into the dealer and there's 12 of them sitting there at the dealership. They can't sell them. They do big discounts. They make too many cars. The price points are too high. And that's a as as beloved as that name, Aston Martin. We all want an Aston Martin in our minds. But when you actually start to look at the uh particulars of what that would entail, nobody wants 150 in depreciation.

Well, they didn't even have car. I mean, you you buy a Aston Martin from 3 years ago and it had the the interior. It had the the the screens from like a car from like the early 2000s. And so I do wonder I do wonder if the depreciation gets uh problem gets a little bit less bad at now that the interiors have have modernized substantially.

They've improved. They've improved, but at the end of the day, there's still a lot of Mercedes-Benz technology. And when you're not using Mercedes-Benz technology, then another question about Aston Martin starts to become reliability, right? If they're making their own crap, then you start thinking, "Oh god, do we really want to be making their own crap?" Like, [laughter]

it's kind of a it's kind of a tough situation. Um, and and Ferrari and Lambo get excused from some of that stuff.

Yeah. Uh, do you think that uh how many how many people do you think are frantically trying to reregister their cars to California after the Whistland Diesel [laughter] scandal? Whistland Diesel, if anybody didn't see, uh was arrested. Uh happened to be ready to vlog the whole thing, which uh almost looks like he did did a deal with authorities, which is like, "Hey, we're going to arrest you. We're not we we need to make a big scene out of this. We're not going to really throw the book at you, but uh we need to do this marketing."

I think it was all legit. I think he is always ready to vlog. I think his his boys are like always at the shot, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure. I'm sure.

But um yeah, boy, that was a big deal. So many people in the community do the Montana thing and I really think we did a big thing about it. It's on our pod last week. I really think with the advent of license plate readers, um, and with states just starting to realize how pervasive this has become, it's just really going to start becoming more and more difficult to do. And, uh, as a guy who's got four very expensive cars registered to my, uh, actual home addresses, it's it's I watch the Montana thing and I think to myself, you know, f you. If I have to pay, you [laughter] have to pay.

Yeah. Exactly.

I do feel bad. I mentioned this on the pod. I do feel bad for the guys who are doing it to get away from the stupid regulations like smog on a $15,000 car. Um and not and and meanwhile it's being ruined by guy after person after person doing it on expensive cars. There's a little hypocrisy there that I've decided smog is something that I'm willing to make an end run around. But I do feel that way. So whatever.

But I do think that Montana thing Yeah. So many people do it and I think so many people should really think about whether they whether it's the right call. Do you want to get arrested to save

20, 15, 20 grand on sales tax?

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, back on uh Jaguar to some extent, uh, is what what is the what is your current top pick for something that's basically a concept car that you hope it makes it into production? For me, I think it's the Hyundai Vision N that looks like a Delorean. Uh, they might go uh they said they were going hydrogen. I think that they should just do uh like the the ionic 5N treatment and just electric and it go 0 to 60 in two and a half seconds or something like they could do something cool there. But do you have any other picks for stuff you've seen where you're like let's bring let's bring it in?

That one was really cool and looked really cool. Although I have to say just a couple weeks ago I reviewed the new Hyundai Crater which is a off-roader concept car and um from a perspective of a car that I think will sell.

Yeah,

they should make that. Yeah, they they body on frame off-roaders. Off-roading has become such a thing in the last 10 years with the Raptor and the Gwagon and the 4Runner and the Wrangler and the Bronco and off-road trim levels of every single car in existence, including minivans.

Um, Hyundai has started to come out with some off-road uh trim levels, but it's pretty clear to me that like there should be an they should go after the 4Runner. 4Runner is selling pretty easily millions, literally millions of units and it doesn't make sense to me that uh that these automakers are not going after it more. I think Honda's insane for not pursuing it, but Hyundai and Kia have been much more aggressive and willing to be aggressive in these kind of new segments. And um I think that crater is previewing a car that will exist in some form. Probably not exactly like that with graphic displays on the windshield, but but something sort of similar. I bet you they're cooking it up. Where do you think that trend came from?

You know, I don't know. It's interesting. I was in Joshua Tree yesterday and boy, there's a lot of LA people out there. Like, it's wild. Like, it has become such a thing. Like, going out into the wilderness. I don't know. It wasn't a thing when I was a kid. It was reserved for like a select group of people. You only bought a Jeep Wrangler if you were like kind of crazy. And now it's like mom cars and everybody's got a Bronco. And the 4Runners are this massive thing. And I I don't know. Obviously, CO exacerbated it, but I assumed that it would slow down when CO ended, and that has not happened.

I wonder if it's some sort of like, you know, you're online all the time, you you're on your phone too much, and then you want the exact opposite, and so demand increases for like what is the opposite of Tik Tok? Like, get me to the forest.

It's also very American to like find [snorts] like have an outdoor activity explode that's about bringing heavy machinery [laughter] like out into the wilderness.

Yeah, it has still has screens. You can still you can still watch Tik Tok, but you can at least act like you're off the grid.

When I think about it, some I was actually thinking about it this this this weekend cuz I was out there and seeing all this and there's a camper in every parking lot. And I do wonder if like dad's being more involved. When I was a kid, dad had a sports car. Not my dad, but in general, like dad had a sport. He would use it to get away.

You would take it on a drive and take it to a show. Sure.

And now like dads and families want to do this stuff together. And you sports cars, you can't do that with your kids. And I've even watched the vintage SUV.

I got a I got a Ferrari FF uh to try to get around that when I had my first kid and it did not work that well. [laughter] The electrical the electrical issues were like if I drive this thing to the farmers market and I stop it, it might not start again. So I got to make sure I start it at home and stop it. [laughter]

But I I am watching like Grand Wagoners, right? And old Landers. And these are things you can now do with the whole family. And I think that there's been a like sort of a renewed push among among among dads and among families to kind of do hey let's do the vintage car thing together. Um and it it's really it's really become kind of a thing of it but I think there's probably many parts of it.

Speaking of dads, speaking of firing dads, what's the best modern car that screams I'm coming to town to fire your dad? We have this big thing on our podcast that yeah, we think that there are some cars that just say I'm here to fire your dad. [laughter] It's just such a like it's such a big old like this is this is a rich guy who doesn't care. Uh the the electric Rolls-Royce which is called the [laughter] big one cuz it's got

one [snorts] of the things I like fire your dad cars to me are cars where it takes up a lot of space but is unbelievably impractical.

[laughter]

So that car is a massive vehicle, but it's got two doors. And that guy owns the factory. That guy, he he comes in. He's like, I don't care what's this whole factory IS CLOSED. BE GONE. And he, you know, he takes the Rolls-Royce off.

It's also so tall. We saw one at the airport next to a Urus. And we were like, it's a car that's taller than that SUV that's been lowered for performance. It's like

ridiculously large.

I have a potentially uh a potentially new fire your dad car. Uh, our friend Paul asked asked me to ask you, do you think Sam Alman paid 20 million for the Gordon Murray S1? It sold uh recently and Sam was photographed in Vegas with Gordon Murray over the weekend.

And Sam has an F1.

Yeah. So, I'll tell you,

it could be the new I say it could be the new Fire Your Dad because if Chad GBT takes your job,

it fires everyone's dad. [laughter] Um, that is an interesting point that Alton may have bought. I will say the commissioner, the story I've heard is the commissioner of that car commissioned five and personally selected along with Gordon Murray three people to to sell three others to. He kept two and then decided to sell one publicly. And so I I I would be not surprised if Alman is one of the four people who has them. He's obviously interested in these cars and yes, he's there with Gordon. Um, but maybe he didn't buy the public one, but who knows? Uh I I I bet I wouldn't be surprised if he's got one. 20 million. That's crazy. Unbelievable number.

It's a lot of It's a lot of money, but it's a lot of car.

Any progress on uh getting into the Sultan of Brunai's collection? I feel like with all this investment and progress like

all I want if I could just get if I could just have a week to film videos in that garage, I I would just retire. I would never

But how much truthfully like how much time have you spent actually chasing it down? Because I feel like if you go over there and you're meeting people and you're, you know, you're, oh yeah, I'll come to your holiday party and give a talk for free, you know, like, like there's ways to like,

it's an interesting situation because I have a suspicion just based on some of the rumblings I've heard from either people who have been there or who have tried. I think that in Brunai viewed as a bit of an embarrassment that that Jeffrey went which is the brother of the Sultan went and spent this much national money on just these cars and they could if they created a museum

everyone I know would suddenly go to Brunai. I not joking like I have no reason otherwise to go to Brunai

or I mean it's odd because I feel like if they do regard it as a as a mistake it's like well you got a great collection let's liquidate it sell it to Dubai Dubai likes setting up museums they have Mr. Beast land. Now they had Brunai land going.

I totally agree. I'm not even entirely sure that they want the publicity of the announcement that all of these cars are going to be sold off. And it's become clear to me that for whatever reason, maybe it's embarrassment. Maybe they actually still want to enjoy the cars or have them. But there it seems to me that there is a pretty clear reality that these guys do not want publicly to have a wide splash with the excesses of the '9s in that country. um which I think is such a shame. Now, part of the problem also with selling all the cars is that they're all right-hand drive, so there's a little bit of a challenge into where they would have to be sold. There's only a few markets, but um but nonetheless, I'd be down. I have I have a uh my Bentley Dominator literally sits right here, which is my one of the Sultan cars.

Fantastic.

Commissioned a Bentley SUV before even Bentley had any idea of doing it. [laughter]

Yeah. Would you ever do a museum? Uh, like a review like review cars from museum or

No, no, no. Like what? Like the Doug the Doug museum

cars and bids activation or something? No,

I am not a collector. I like to use the cars and I like to be focused with the cars that I choose and um I'm never going to have a giant collection of cars. I uh

Yeah, but I meant I meant more like like if if I'm a if I'm a collector and I have a special car that I'm just planning to hold and you were creating a museum and you were basically saying you I'll store your car and and maintain it. But but

I create a museum of other people's vehicles. Yeah, I would I would maybe curate such a thing. I could see myself doing that in a in a retirement scenario. If someone space and uh someone takes care of the hard parts for me, I would I would curate a nice little museum. There you go. I think I think it would be a hit.

What are the biggest moments on the calendar for 2026 for you? Either like moments that you're excited about from the car manufacturers, the world or whatever, but also within your organization.

Um I I'm I'm generally just excited. Yeah. You know, it's an interesting thing. My my world is nowhere near as um varied as it once was. You know, I used to travel all over the world and review the craziest cars, but I kind of filmed most of them. And now it's mostly just new cars. And I still get excited from a work perspective. I still get excited about the same things, which is just going in and reviewing the cars. I We had the new Nissan Sentra in the office the other day. And like I'm driving in in the morning being like, I'm pumped. Like I'm excited. [laughter] And there is still that excitement. There's not like surprisingly there is not specific cars that are that exciting for me. The the new supercars are always a big deal. And there's going to be a few coming out here in quick succession, which is the McLaren W1 and Bugatti Turbion. And obviously, I'm excited about those, but it's not just those cars. You know, we get big views doing videos of Kia Tellides. And I get excited about there is something exciting to me about an automaker uh playing in a very competitive space, which supercars isn't. It's a it's a more of an emotional thing, and a lot of times people buy them all. Whereas tellide, you have to distinguish yourself with quirks and features from the Pilander, the pilot, the the palisade. And so I always find it to be kind of just as interesting to see what those guys are doing. And they often have some cool stuff. They often reward me with some cool quirks and features.

On the on on Ferrari, do you get sick of people commenting like bring back pin and firina? Like I just feel like every Ferrari video it's like he's not come they're not coming back. It's over. Like I I I I I mean I every every Ferrari video I'm I go to the comment section across every channel and and one per my personal belief is that the cars actually look amazing when they're speced properly. I think they look really rough the way that Ferrari specs them like for for basically marketing press, right? And then I think once people with uh refined taste get in there, they they end up looking amazing. Uh, so I'm not I'm not exactly like disappointed with the the the current design.

I agree. I didn't for a while. When they first left Pinfirina, I thought there were some questionable cars. Um, however, the 296 is unbelievably beautiful. Um, they have and honestly the Dodichi Chilendry, which I made fun of because of its ridiculous name and also because of its design when it was first announced. I got to spend a day with one and I totally feel the opposite now. I think they're beautiful. They're striking. Ferrari is designing cars in a way now that is like at the forefront, at the cutting edge rather than just sort of only going after beauty. With that said, Pin and Freen and Ferrari have an unbelievable legacy together and it would be nice to see them return reunite in some form. But what is history?

Yeah, [snorts] they they did, but now it's been like more than a decade and it's owned by an Indian like conglomerate. Like are all the same people even still there? If they did partner, would it just be like like a like just for the brand purposes?

Hasblot is owned by DJI now like what is that partnership? You know, these companies, they change over time. They just become brands. They just become names, IP.

If they did partner, would it just be for brand purposes? Yeah, probably. But I bet you they'd sell some cars. [laughter]

They came out with a 500 unit run of a pin and forina designed car. That would that would kill just like if Ferrari did a manual, which I sincerely believe they should do. Yeah.

Um I think that also would h even if it was just for the purposes of making money, I think it would have been successful

on the on the Ferrari doing a manual. Um you you know you get on the stump every once in a while with like I want to change to what this manufacturer is doing or what the car community as a whole is doing. uh what's the highest confidence like I'm responsible for that that you maybe it's just like a tiny thing but like you know there's a lot of things where you know you say stuff on the internet and then the change happens and you're like hey maybe they watched the video maybe it was a factor uh maybe it's just I got lucky and I was talking about the thing that they were already working on but

I think very little do I actually feel responsible however

when I bought my convertible G Wagon

yes

eight and a eight and years ago eight and a half years ago, nobody even knew that car existed. And within a year, Kendall Jenner had one. And I did a bunch of videos and I posted a lot of pictures on Instagram. I drive it on the beach with beach grass and it looks amazing.

And the values of those suddenly absolutely went through the roof.

Yeah.

Which was not the case when I bought my car. I paid 125 for my car and if I could find another one for 125, I would buy 10. Yeah.

And suddenly, six months ago, three months ago, Mercedes announces they're coming back with a new convertible G Wagon. And I don't think that I was directly entirely responsible, but I wouldn't be surprised if I played a little bit of a role in the cultural um re remembermbering that this car existed to the point where values kind of blew up there. Some influential people got in Mercedes ear and Mercedes was thinking, "Okay, maybe we can do this again."

Yeah. No, no, I I think that's 100% right. It's uh Yeah, you deserve you deserve the victory lap on that for sure.

On that ridiculous car, which is such an embarrassing car to own that I don't even want the victory lap. [laughter] We're giving it to you. You're directly responsible.

Other than that though, I don't think I have significant I mean, I've been I've been harping a long time about how automakers need to make more off-road SUVs and that's happened. But I think also the market trends have made that pretty clear.

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, Ed Bowling with the what is it? LP640 prices. He kind of discovered that there were far fewer of them than people thought. And so that obviously changed the price. And if you're bringing new information to the world, like that feels like you do have an influence.

Now, in Ed's case, he's got a few of them. So, you know, [laughter] talk him up a little bit. That's that's a game I should have gotten into and I wish that I had. Uh, but unfortunately, I did not do that for my own personal gain. Not that that's the only reason that Ed does it for.

Yeah,

he's prude fellow and I think that played a role.

We're gonna we're going to see Doug with like, you know, he has 200 SF90s and now he's talking really positively about them like and he bought them like at the trough of the depreciation curve. What's going on here? And you're like, actually, there's no electricity. They did all these extra studies and the the hybrid system.

Can we can we get Nissan to bring back the Morano Cross Cabriolet?

That is important. We we are big fans here. We we we took your joke and we've been running with it and the whole

you know the sad thing about that car, I don't know if you know this, but the the the convertible tops fail. And so, you know,

just leave it down. I don't need the top. I'm just joy riding that thing. I never need California. You

Does the SP1 have a top? No. Right. It doesn't have a windshield. Right. [laughter] Right. But this so those cars eventually they will all fail and that will kind of kill them because apparently the the Nissan's only solution is you have to replace it. There is apparently a shade tree mechanic guy in Florida who figured out the problem and is willing to fix it but you got to send your car to him. So if you live in like the Tampa Clearwater area you can get your top fixed but like otherwise it isn't worth sending your Morano Cross cabing.

I mean the restood community in 10 years will be going crazy.

Oh no no. You know what we're doing? cannonballing it there and back from LA. That's what we'll do.

A shame that that car was utterly awful in every way because it is a very

special product that that could have a cult following if it wasn't so bad.

Yeah, it's very funny.

Anyways, well,

thank you so much for taking the time with us. This is fantastic.

Enjoyed it.

Congratulations on all the success and uh and please keep the podcast running. We've been loving it. We we we it's congratulations on the massive success there and with everything and uh we appreciate you coming hang a while chopping it up.

Cheers.

Thanks. Thanks for having me. Bye.

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