John Palmer on PartyDow joining Stripe, vibe coding hype, and the Mac Mini open-source moment

Let's bring in John Palmer. Our surprise.

He's live in the TV and Ultra Dome.

Coming in.

You You know him.

Nice hat. John,

you probably know John Palmer is the

as being one inch shorter than you.

Well, he's the face of leg lengthening surgery right now, right?

No, they were saying I'm the Goldilocks technology brother. So, they were some people were saying you're a little too tall.

Okay.

And Jordy tall on his own right, but maybe not quite at this table.

So, they wanted someone right in between. So, I was contacted by by your team and

I love it. I love it. Well, actually, introduce yourself since uh for those who've been living under your data center.

Yeah, sure. My name is John Palmer. Um I was a co-founder and CEO of a company called Partardi Dow. Um recently

um announced that we're going to be joining Stripe soon. So that was a awesome 5-year journey. And um

also work on a company called Area Technology which does um logo and graphic design for brands like yourself. Uh shout out to the new logo and graphics package. And um yeah, that that's

honored. Well, we wanted to do we wanted to hang and do some timeline with you as that is a sign of great respect

in our culture.

Yeah. What you got, Jordy?

Uh what do we have here? Uh

how do you guys enable pseudo for

Okay, baby. Baby Keem.

Yes.

Says yesterday he hits the timeline. How do you fix openclaw internal reasoning leaking? Peter,

what does he actually mean? Does anyone know what that mean? So, I mean, we read your post about uh something small is happening. Hilarious.

Yep.

Did you How much of that was real? Did you ever actually buy a Mac Mini?

So, the the entire post was tongue and cheek, but um I did uh unbeknownst to you all, I did actually buy a Mac Mini that week. I did set it up. Um setting it up was the best 48 hours of my life. Uh since then, I've used it. Uh not very much. So, it's um I I don't know. I think the reason I bought it originally was basically to tinker and see like how real is the hype.

Yep. I set it up. I installed various plugins and skills. I made sure my setup was super optimized. And basically, I realized the only thing I really needed it for was coding remotely in, you know, repos I'm working on or side projects. Um, you know, when I'm out and about on my phone. And you can already do that with like a million other tools. Actually, like even claw, even the cloud app, like you can just connect it to whatever repo, like you can literally just use cloud code in the app.

Yeah. And so there was really very little delta that it provided in terms of value beyond what I was already doing.

Yeah.

And I did try some other things. I've been trying to get it to like, you know, work on Google Sheets and invite people. But the big problem is that the browser use specifically is pretty fragile. And I I think it's going to get better. So I don't have buyer remorse yet. I think that Mac Mini purchase will will come in handy. But

so far it's like, "Hey, add I want to add someone to a Google sheet. Can you invite them?" And it's like it opens the modal to share. It types in their email and it's like I crashed like it can't get past the share modal of a Google sheet. I'm sure I could I'm sure I could optimize my setup further which I'm looking forward to.

Skill issue skill issue skill.mds is

it probably is a skill issue.

Yeah, you need to get the skill called skill issue and and make sure that's running. It it is it is uh I don't know if this is like a brilliant PR move from Baby Keem's team or if this is real, but either way, it's really really uh funny. But yeah, it was I how mainstream this went. Uh our lawyer uh got a Mac Mini.

Uh he's obviously pretty pretty tapped in, but it's cool to see.

Uh

well, I was talking with you at the gym this morning that we should I I'm excited about a market for bootleg skills. So you don't you don't just like you don't want to be the guy just listening to hits on the radio, right? You don't want to just be going on skills.sh and getting the what would Elon do skill. That's that's pretty that's what everyone did. And it turns out that one was like actually it was actually malware. So what you want

is within your trusted social circle of people that you spend time with IRL USBs full of markdown files with bootleg skills that you kind of keep internal. And there may even be a market for that, you know, on Craigslist, whatever.

And you can say if somebody says, "Hey, can I can I try the USB? Can I can I can I borrow it? You say, "Well, this this skill is kind of like a personal thing." Like, it's not really

You need to be gatekeeping your skills. That's like probably the last moat in tech is gatekeep skills. Just proprietary markdown files powering the entire glo.

I do I I I do honestly wonder what the conversion rate from, you know, buying the Mac Mini to like actually using Open Claw regularly was because I think that your post was funny because a lot of people definitely went through that. Like I I went and bought a Mac Mini and it did take me like a week even to unbox it because I just had like a busy life and I didn't have time. And then when I did it was like okay well I didn't have a monitor at home so I had to plug it in my TV and then like the actual setup does take time. Like the 48 hours is not that much of a joke.

And and I think on this point like I do think you need like a solid month at home fixing it. So I've been out of town for a week. I'm here in LA. I live in Brooklyn. And a lot of the time when you hit a wall, it's like, okay, now you probably need to get on the Mac Mini yourself and like add whatever environment variables or keys that you need, set up a new account for it. Yeah. And since I haven't been home, like I can't really

like, you know, on a more serious note amazing. Like isn't like 5 years ago, everyone was posting like I miss like hacker culture.

Totally. I miss I miss I miss the old Silicon Valley and it feels like this this feels like uh it feels like we're back.

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people definitely like open up the terminal for the first time in years. I mean this is true for vibe code generally like a lot of people would step back from just writing code or committing code to any GitHub repo like the vibe coding boom

definitely

it's funny because I do really prefer the quad code like user experience to any of the like slicker desktop tools because

because of a lot of reasons but it is funny you're like in the terminal I think everyone there's definitely a major factor where like you feel really cool using the terminal if you're not an engineer but you're just it's all plain text like you're speaking in plain English and like it's speaking to you in plain English but you know if you're at the airport or in co-working space. You're like, I feel I look pretty fantastic.

Performative. Sheree says, "Baby Keem just humbled a model." That is actually an exact uh lyric from Baby Keem song uh Stat.

That's exact uh deep cut. Deep cut. And uh yeah, he someone else said two phone baby keem. That's another lyric, but two Macini Baby Keem.

And Baby Keem liked it.

He's he's very online. We're working on getting Baby Keem on the show to break down his full skills.

Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest questions that I feel like is still sort of unanswered is like is like what are people doing with it? What, you know, obviously if you're working on a startup and you're building a piece of big software and you're committing to it and you're firing off just managing agents remotely, that feels relevant. Although, yes, you mentioned you can just do that already.

Yeah. I mean, I actually whatever like I'm definitely not the top person who's like diving into this, right? I I feel a lot more confident even even for coding. I actually don't love doing it with open claw because I've I've got my reps in with cloud code. I trust the harness. I trust its ability to like utilize the model in the best way. So

e even for coding I'm I'm just using cloud code remotely anyway. So still waiting to find the use case. I think one interesting thing though is just that like I think prior to this whole open claw wave, the whole idea was like all the AI labs had their like computer use demo and it was running in like the totally you know anonymous um VM somewhere and I do think these things are way less useful without your personal data and your personal contacts and the stuff on your machine. No, no one solved like trusting it enough security-wise like you know my Mac Mini uh back home it it has its own Gmail, iCloud, whatever cuz I'm not going to let it touch my data. If we do that all the files on your file system and all your accounts and it's not going to make a dumb mistake,

I do think the ability to like do all of your knowledge work on the go. Even if it's just like I do the same stuff I do today with AI, I can just do it on the go would be a major leap in terms of like

idea guys have been waiting for.

Yes. Yes. It's the moment idea guys have been waiting for though. I think Yeah. And we we can riff on that if you want.

Just more phone based work, more like, okay, this is something I need to do regularly, turn it into a crown job. Like the agent should be able to do that.

Yeah. Yeah. I totally think so.

Also, I was just really excited about this like Napster sort of moment. Like every idea I was joking with Jordy like every idea that I have for like something to vibe code is like something that doesn't exist not because of code. Like if you want a fitness tracker, like yes, you can vibe code one, but you can also just go to the app and get a free app store and get a free one or you can pay. Like there's plenty of products in every category, right? Right. The things that you want but can't get are like something that jumps every payw wall, something that Yeah. You know, so like g gives you videos for free that are behind walls and stuff and like these walls exist for a reason. Um and uh and maybe those come down in a world where everyone's like working on open source agents and just sort of showing up as themselves um and synthesizing everything. But uh it's uh like it it feels like it's much harder to actually productize that fully because so many of the things that people want are like yes they're possible in open source in the sense that like file sharing was was popular.

Totally. Yeah. And even though I will say like even though I guess so far

I don't want to say I'm disappointed because it was really learning thing but I I still it's never a good bet to be like really bearish on new form factor with like novel tech. So I'm still pretty bullish and excited about like 3 6 months from now what that same Mac Mini could be doing and it doesn't need the Mac Mini. It could be it could be on whatever service but I think it's going to get pretty exciting pretty quick.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

What did uh what did Playboy Cardi mean by this? Did he was he responding to Baby Keem? Is that what was he supposed to read into this?

Is he also doing it back in the Jeremy Irons in margin call? Is that the meme?

This is when he says that the music is going to stop.

Oh, okay. So, so, so Playboy Cardi is calling the top. Have you seen I have.

You have?

Whoa. Are you a film guy?

Uh, I'm not.

Have you seen Borat?

I would never call myself a film guy, but I've seen all movies.

Have you seen Borat? I have seen Borat. Okay. Okay. You're You're The whole bit is that Jordy hasn't seen enough movies.

Yeah, he hasn't seen any movies, in fact.

Wow. Interesting.

RIP the market. We had a good run. The three kinds of stock market days so far. Donald Trump Donald Trump spins the wheel of tariffs and replaces a 5% tariff on Bellarusian wheat with a 22.4% tariff on Pakistani jet engines. All stocks lose 2d6. Uh, Substack newsletter publishes a story about Door Dash going badly. Door Dash down 862%. global financial system teeters on the brink. And three, Nvidia announces earnings of $100 trillion, beating expectations by a,000x. Jensen Wong named new king of earth while his stockholders to form the new permanent ruling class Nvidia down 3% on the news. This is the president of the market. Are you are you a day trader guy?

No. No.

Are you an investor?

I am an investor. Investor.

How do you think about the market? What's your strategy?

I'm an investor. I'm a businessman. Um I I don't know. I think my approach is like pretty smoothrain value investing like uh good fundamentals. I'll buy the stock and hold it for a long time. Definitely not doing a lot of

even even intramonth tra it's it's really like long term.

You're not like a oneman Jane Street.

I'm not a not a oneman Jane Street.

What about what about crypto? I feel like if you're working in crypto, even adjacent to crypto, there's just so much alpha from seeing essentially like angel investment style opportunities from someone who's building something that's you just know it's going to be hyped and the token's going to moon.

The issue is that it's like wildly distracting because as soon as you have enough money, invest. I I I think I I think uh

I I don't like doing a lot of like individual stock trading because as soon then then my attention is gravitating towards this thing that's not actually productive.

Yeah.

And so what do you think?

I think that's true. And I think I mean obviously if you're trading like per in crypto like you better stay on top of it because like there's a moment to exit or if you just hold it longterm you'll probably get liquidated at some point. So I I just don't touch any of that. You're right though that there are uh whatever there are like yeah weird things in crypto where like someone you know or someone's doing a project and they aird drop a token or something like this and you wake up a week later and it's worth like whatever a month's worth of your salary. Um, so I think that's

Let's talk about Jane Street because I've seen maybe

10,000 posts kind of blaming them entirely for uh the just crypto price action over the last couple months.

You haven't been able to have you been able to find anything that is like definitive? Um uh obviously the lawsuit came out and they were like we were going back and forth on it because it sound they pulled they pulled funds out of this liquidity pool right after

actually I don't even think they p I don't think they pulled funds. I actually think they sold into the pool.

Okay.

Which is I guess the same thing. I don't know. I don't know.

Uh but they did it five minutes after we were saying maybe yesterday or the day before that okay it's a public blockchain. theory that it's not actually a smoking gun necessarily,

but either way,

I'm I'm only as informed as you are in terms of the tweets. I haven't verified anything, but yeah, my understanding is that um I guess uh Tara Luna had had a lot of money in this pool and they had planned to pull whatever 180 something million out of it. Yeah. and that I guess the allegation is that Jane Street heard that this was coming before everyone else. That's like the material non-public information and so then also pulled their money or sold it um yeah like just minutes after Tara did it. And um you're you're right that it's public. So I guess like again not a source of truth here. I'm like relaying secondhand with confidence uh information that I read on on on the timeline

guys built for for podcast. Yeah, I'm I'm relaying this to you secondhand without confidence, but yeah, I guess you could say, hey, it was it was a anyone could see that and they just reacted quickest, but I think I I guess what that would come down to is what are the internal ops on moving those funds like that. I would imagine that a fund like Jane Street with $85 million in this pool isn't just sitting in someone's like hot wallet, MetaMask, right? Yeah, they probably they could have they could have like some type of protocol or actually software like as some type of protective mechanism given that they

clearly are are

I don't know a lot of stuff feels like conspiracy theories that uh it feels very similar to uh like uh the Robin Hood um GameStop fiasco where there was like a lot of conspiracy theories about like Citadel purposely tanking markets and the bailing ing out hedge funds at various points. And I I always thought that was just like people looking for scapegoats and a whole bunch of market actors just playing hard ball because that's the that's the default structure. I don't know.

Yeah. I mean, I'm not that comfortable like yeah speculating on this either cuz I'm just like all right, I saw you know posting the timeline.

They are interesting though.

DJ CPA says Jane Street got my dad drunk and made him cheat on my mom when I was three. People are are hunting for uh for you know says Jane Street killed my dog.

That would not be good.

You're just getting a lot of the cathartic like crypto people who have just been wrecked by these fiascos like now have a viable scapegoat.

He's not a bad trader. The market was manipulated by Jane Street.

Yeah.

Uh Tampa International Airport has come out and said, "We've seen enough. We've had enough. It's time to ban pajanas at Tampa International Airport.

Wait, they actually This is great. Read the next line.

I mean, it's really

After successfully banning Crocs and giving everyone the amazing opportunity to experience the world's first Crocs-free airport, it's time to take on even an even larger crisis. Pajamas at the airport. Is this real? Is this actually Tampa?

It's hard to say.

What's your What's your airport travel?

I was going to ask you guys because you're traveling together a lot. Um,

I don't know. It's always a dilemma, right? Do you wear

like like I get the pajamas thing because if you wear, you know, your nicest clothes, then to me when I get to my destination, I'm those were on the plane. Yeah. Like I'm not unless I have laundry, you know. So for me, I'm rocking like uh one of my more like mid fits like I'm something I don't care about, something something lightweight that packs light as well because after that travel like that's not coming out of the bag for the duration. Well, there's a there's like a contagion theory here because if I'm in a suit, but I'm sitting down in a seat that someone in pajamas just sat down in, then I'm getting their pajamas all over my suit.

Yeah.

And so, uh it's it's just a vicious cycle.

Are you guys business cash on the plane with

I I I've actually traveled in suits many times and and it's underrated.

Interesting.

I I think uh I mean besides the fact that I've heard that you can get upgraded to first class more more easily if you're dressed up. I don't know how apocryphal that is. It happened. I feel like that's just people trying to justify.

I think people just they they see the suit and they're like, "Respect here. Please take my seat. I'm in pajamas. I have the first class seat, but you deserve this."

I think I'd feel more comfortable with that. Um if I if I weren't as tall as I was, and you are because the suit, you know, more powerful aura, definitely less comfortable, especially if you're in a seat where you're kind of constrained. It's kind of bunching up. It's really not feeling you're aiming for.

What about the TSA ban? Have you Have you seen this TSA shutting down? TSA pre-check.

Pre-check.

This is just like a ploy to up to to increase private jet ownership, right?

Yeah. Clearly the the we're we can ask Ken Richie about this. The the lobby is trying to push people into

it's kicking the commercial aviation enjoyers while they're down. It's really brutal.

What does Joe Wendel say about this? He says, "I'm very proconformity, very anti antisocial behavior in public, and yet I can't understand why people care so much about other people's airport attire. Just say that you wear pajamas to the airport. Just say that you wear pajamas to the airport.

Flying is unpleasant enough.

Uh, Burger King is launching an AI chatbot that will assess workers friendliness and will be trained to recognize certain words and phrases like, "Welcome to Burger King. Please, thank you."

It's huge.

The AI will be programmed into workers headsets according to the Verge.

I think Chick-fil-A got access to that technology like a decade early.

Yeah,

cuz there's a my pleasure. There's a thank you. There's my pleasure every time.

Yeah. Apparently, when McDonald's opened in Russia, there was a quote, "After sever several days of training about customer service at McDonald's, a young Soviet teenager asked a McDonald's trainer a very serious question. Why do we have to be so nice to the customers? After all, we have the hamburgers and they don't.

They need to be nice to us if they want these hamburgers."

What was it? Did Did MC McDonald's launch something as well?

I thought they launched an AI thing, too. It wasn't uh

it's AI big arch.

Well, the big arch is the big burger.

Um but then um I thought there was I mean at this point every single company has an AI strategy of some of some kind and and so everyone's putting putting uh various stuff. Are you an F1 guy?

Um a tennis guy.

I'm a tennis guy, but I I watch like the F1, you know, highlights and recaps. I I'm rarely like getting up to watch the race live, but um

play tennis or watch tennis or both.

Um play and watch both a lot. Um

yeah.

Um what does it say? Best friends should be able to apply to jobs together and get hired as a set. New age hired hiring looks like four to six talented people clustering together and building a feature and getting acquired. Um that's yeah, this does exist.

I mean a horse did post

horse is kind of going off. horse has been on a on a generational run. Literally a horse. Um yeah, underrated to just

uh Riley Walls, we talked about this yesterday, joined the labs team at OpenAI.

Very exciting. Uh we were talking about this uh kind of offline uh before the show that it seems like there's a lot of opportunity and like hiring for not just ability which which Riley Walls clearly is incredibly talented and has you know an insane probably like the most elite idea guy like actually on the pitch playing right now.

Yeah.

Uh and that's hard to say as an idea guy as idea guys ourselves. Um, but I think like hiring for you you called it like hiring for Mind Share I was a

Yeah, I was pointing out obviously both Riley and Pete Steinberger like both incredible devs. So not not trying to take away from that but it's interesting that like both of those um either like hires or acquisitions

also come with like a lot of developer mind share

and I think in a world where like

if you just run out to the extreme like software production costs go to zero. Um, so, so being an engineer, being able to build stuff, that skill becomes more of a commodity than what are you trying to acquire or hire for.

Maybe in this interim period, it's like a blend. Okay, like I still want you to be a good engineer, but I also want you to bring me a developer mind share and I think to that point, it's like, you know, with OpenClaw, for example, um, it was definitely the best product in the market, but it was open source. No one could have, you know, forked it, copied it, whatever. But I think it really would have been hard for someone to catch up given how much mind share it had. It's like the fastest growing open source repo of all time. So what you're buying it's like even though it remains open source and forkable and in like a foundation and other people could build it. The reason you buy PE in addition to him being a great developer, you know, idea guy, whatever. is just that like he he's bringing the mind share of all the people who definitely follow him, have notifications on for all his posts. They're following all the updates because he's bringing

in they they probably spent few hund you know 600 bucks or something like that on a Mac mini

some hardware device to to run the model.

Um uh Noah Smith is sharing the job postings for software engineers have picked up since Vive coding became a thing. they had been declining until uh the early part of last year actually.

And again, this is why I mean, we've we've talked about this over and over and over. I feel like there's this like uh two different narratives being spread on Instagram. It's just like this like labor displacement narrative going super super super hard and then over here

like it's just an entirely different world.

Yeah. I mean,

Tyler, how how do you interpret the the software engineering number? Have we talked about this yet?

Yeah. I mean, so I think I broadly agree like so when Daria won and Doresh, she had this take where it's like um

you go from uh AI doing 90% of of like coding to 100% and then it goes from 90% of like all sweet tasks to 100%. And so when you're kind of in the interim period like engineers get super super productive, but then there's a point where it's like actually like

it's like instead of being super high leverage because they're the AI is doing 99%. Now the AI is doing 100% and it's actually like it just kind of instantly goes to zero.

So like I I think you should imagine that like yeah you actually see you should see a lot of like hiring because everyone wants like a vibe coder at the company

but then at some point voding becomes so easy that like you don't need any any like special talent to be able to do it

and then you just have the random person.

I I I mean even

Yeah. So basically if if if you if one day you're not sitting at your desk, you're like you're kind of the the vibe coder in the coal mine

canary. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Um I I I I do wonder about like because there is there is a world where uh software engineering postings and jobs are substitutive for other roles. Like you can have someone whose job is like a business analyst and every day they open Excel and crunch some numbers and then you could hire a software engineer to automate that task 10 years ago, 20 years ago and a lot of companies did. And if vibe coding sort of eats into other things, you could see the rest of white. It's like the white collar work could go away because the software engineers are doing it. The and then the bigger question is like is like you're sort of jumping ahead to like a full unemployment scenario where no one has a job. in the world where there are like a few jobs there. Uh I I keep thinking about this thing that Pavville Asperuhov said where he was like uh yeah like everyone if if the software engineering jobs go away like get ready to compete with software engineers in every category because they're going to learn financial analysis they're going to learn to trade they're going to learn to sell they're going to learn all these things and if they're just like smart and hardworking people and they have AI tools both helping them upskill reskill and shift and do whatever they need to in the new role like you'll just th those people will still be employed. They'll just be in a different part of the economy. So I don't

Rachel Carton who's coming on the show soon says by more than a 3 to1 margin young Americans believe AI will take away opportunities. There's a lot of uncertainty surrounding AI especially among the youth using it as a joke like Liquid Death Gucci or Equinox have tried is not a wise marketing strategy. Uh yeah, the the blowback around Gucci was predictable, but it was also strange that they chose to use an image that looked like it was out of GTA, too. Like it was just like not even trying to look like one of the images that we looked at

looked like

I thought it would look great

normal photograph and looked cool. And the other one like was like a GTA style characters which really didn't hit

interesting. Um, uh, Jirro Ticket says, "But sir, that's rage bait. If you do this, you'll sloppy the timeline and you're posting something that you know has no value. We we are selling engagement to willing scrollers at the current fair algorithm parameters." Uh AI Schiffman had uh was was uh certainly

Have you ever talked to an AI just like as a as like a being or like a friend or like just as like any any like nonproductivity like

earnestly?

Earnestly. Yeah. Just like chatting back and forth with it. Not for any specific business purpose.

Have you ever fallen in love?

No. No. No. I I really haven't. Earnestly. I haven't I haven't really given that. I I have like to test it out. Yeah,

I wasn't like wholeheartedly engaging.

Yeah,

I It's weird. I don't know if it's like a personality thing or maybe I'm just too busy or something, but I've never been like I will I I will I if I'm in a video game, I'll go talk to a NPC on a on a side quest. I'm down like I'm down to explore the story that's there, but for some reason it just hasn't clicked with me.

I don't know. I I I I haven't even done that. Like even when I was playing like uh like MMOs back in the day, like I feel like I would always just be like skipping skipping dialogue. I'm just like

I actually do skip a lot.

I don't know. It's hard. It's hard to really buy into it. I think maybe a good the synthesis of that would be I would be down to play like a new Elder Scrolls game where there are like really good AI models behind the characters. Then I'd be exploring it cuz like

I've decided to suspend disbelief to play this game. So while I'm in this game, let me do it. But in my real life, I'm not like having a heartto-he heart with the AI. Next time you call me and I don't pick up, go into chatbt and say, "Pretend you're

pretend you're Jordy. Let's talk about work."

I do think that's like more interest like like again not like maybe not as a heartto-he heart but like

I mean there's companies that do that like a AI version of an influencer and whatnot like that those things exist.

I mean you guys have like hundreds if not thousands of hours of live show now. You could probably get a pretty good Jordy model. And if you were like trying to riff on show planning, like it would actually functionally be pretty good. But

no, I just have no desire for it. I don't know.

Give it a shot, John.

Maybe. Maybe.

I I do think this is an interesting take on the open claw style stuff where like I think there's a world where again security is like a big asterisk here, but like if I had OpenClaw. Okay, so I' I've been riffing on this idea for a while that I'm just a JPT5 client. So like chat GPT has GPT5 and I'm John Palmer. So I'm John Palmer Transformer. I'm JPT5 and I'm just a client for JPT5 which is my brain.

And so like you guys

kind of like a harness.

Yeah. I'm I'm Yeah. Well, this is the clothes are the harness and the the brain is the model and my mouth is the client. I don't know.

So, so in in that anyway, I won't go into the whole riff, but I guess like uh so my Mac Mini I named JPT5 and hypothetically if I could train it on like all the writing and speaking I've ever done plus my whole file system and it knew like what I do on my computer.

One version of that is it's single player. It's my open claw. I use it to do my tasks. But I'm really interested in like the multiplayer. Again, this is the security security is not ready for this yet, but if I had my Mac Mini and either humans like yourselves could really go like, "Hey, I need John for something. I know he did that one project and all the files are probably on his computer. Could I go microp pay his agent be like, "Yo, I need help researching this crypto thing that you did, whatever." And if my agent could actually give you,

it's like you're not accessing the same one-sizefits-all model that everyone has. you're accessing, you know, that model with some custom, you know, context and prompting or whatever and and that would be cool. So, like,

you know, you have access to Jordy anyway, but for someone who doesn't, you know, if that random third party out there wanted to riff with Jordy on a marketing idea,

it'd be cool if they actually could and you had set up that model. It wasn't, you know, Opus 4.6 trying to replicate you, but it was like all all your insider info. It's kind of cool. And then, you know, the agents could do it to each other. Now JPT5 could be talking to JHT5. Yeah.

And they could be like we could be hanging IRL and our models could be hanging back at home like kind of like a kids playd date like my models like hanging out with your model. They they like hey let's get John involved. They go get John Kugan's. So it's kind of a fun uh

I mean there's a take on that where it's like that's dystopian or something. But that's not that's not how I feel. I just feel like I'm just like bored. I'm bored idea. We go brainstorm for an hour on some concept and then we come home and we find out our models cooked up something way better.

Yeah, I don't know. I I was I was looking at the the clawed

I think I think it's I think it's actually I think it's actually possible

especially especially if you were like you bring the original idea and then you say like I want I want John Palmer

GPT to talk with John Kugan GPT

about this idea and like come back with a bunch of ideas. It it's a lot it's it will work a lot better for someone like John who has spoken on the internet for hundreds of hours.

There's so much that I don't say on that's why you actually want to talk.

It'd be cool if the model could like decide to price its own services and negotiate with whoever whatever model is hiring it. I mean

whatever. It's

uh Avi Schiffman dropped user interview number three. We're not going to play the video because it's kind of sad, but Gary Tan said, "This is not the happy demo path. Apple or Google would never make this one of their launch videos. It's not what you will hear about in a TED talk, but it's real. AI doesn't get tired, doesn't ghost. A lot to think about with this one." Yeah, I I you know, Avi continues to find new ways to uh break through the noise, but in some ways like even though this video has been uh it it feels somewhat dystopian, you know, this is someone who's struggling with mental health, like actually gets in an accident in the video. It does feel like the most kind of real raw like like experience of AI companionship in this form factor.

Um yeah reflection on like uh do you remember his interaction with uh Paul Graham very early on? He was like I'm building like a hardware device for AI. He put out like some very vague posts about his plans and everyone was like this is impossible like Apple will crush you. They have the supply chain, they have the distribution, they have brand like you will never win in this category. And Paul Graham told him like in order to win you have to do things that Apple would never do and be counterpositioned. And so at one point he was thinking about doing something that looked like very organic, you know, no smooth lines, no rounded edges, crazy colors that Apple wouldn't pick, like just really moving outside of their design language. So you wouldn't feel like that. And then yeah, this this type of messaging is certainly in line with like the anti-Apple. Um, and I don't know, it'll be interesting to see where the company goes. People were so bearish on that ad campaign. We were very surprised by how broad the Billboard campaign was, but

they got the Heineken response.

Oh, did Heineken like

So, Heineken also just came out with a new campaign that I want your guys' reaction to.

Uh, it's it's I I don't know where exactly it is, but seems to be global. And it's just like a graphic of a voice note, and it says the campaign is don't send a WhatsApp note. It could have been a beer in person. So, they're like taking like the total like real world approach, which which I think is

I think it's good. Uh, you know, I I think you you had Matt Zaitlin on the show recently and he and I play in a pretty regular like friends poker game. Not big money. It's really like a social hang. But

it's funny because like everyone's like multiple people have wives here like why are you going to play poker? That's Dgen. Are you losing money? Whatever. But I I had a post a while back that's like in the current like casino economy between like prediction markets, meme coins, like uh crypto trading, whatever,

like an in-person poker game with your friends is like the most wholesome. Like if you're going to gamble and lose like 100 bucks,

uh go do it with your friends over four hours. Like having a drink and hanging out and uh and you're solving the male loneliness crisis.

I've heard the same argument made for cigar nights.

Yeah. Like cigar is obviously bad for you, but getting together with friends and actually maintaining social, you know, ties is probably really good for long-term health. It

It's pretty great, honestly. And if you play if you play a regular poker game, even with strangers that you only knew through this game originally, like 6 months out, you've logged like so many hours just like hanging out that it's like a pretty great uh like wholesome wholesome vibe, you know?

We should get into it. Not big.

If you're ever in New York, we can we can have you guys.

Okay, let me do some ads. Let me tell you about Gemini 3.1 Pro. Gemini 3.1 Pro is here with a more capable baseline. It's great for super complex tasks like visualizing difficult concepts, synthesizing data into a single view, or bringing creative projects to life. And let me also tell you about public.com. No, Plaid. Plaid powers the apps you use dispensate, borrow, and invest. Securely connecting bank accounts to move money, fight fraud, and improve lending now with AI. Dan Romero says, "I spent five years cloning an existing app with a network effect, building the software is not the hard part." And he was building this app for a very specific sub community and was able to get a massive amount of attention. So I think this is like a

good good uh clear rebuttal of at least that one part of the of the Catrini piece.

Yeah. I think um I I had post a while back about how like um again same thing like software costs go to zero. Everyone's like oh yes like I'm an idea guy. I'm going to be crushing it now because now I can just use cloud code and like build whatever I want. But it's like if you if you just make one more logical leap it's like okay everyone has that now. So if you're just like building your ideas like if you're building vibecoded apps for consumers you're actually in a way more competitive space than it's ever been. So, I actually think it's almost more like uh not to riff on the idea guy thing too long, but like actually being paid like a salary to be an idea guy or like making good income to be an idea guy will actually be like a very privileged position where

only companies that have like real moes and uh monopolies on distribution will actually be able to hire like people whose job it is just think on the idea because if you have a good idea and you ship it, you know people will use it because you've already got the distribution versus if you're even if you've got a great idea and you can vibe code it up if you're in this like sea of vibe coders like producing way more apps.

Well, the the the other thing is is uh I there there are certain idea guys throughout history that thrived because they had a unique insight. They brought it to market. executed pretty well but it just was a great idea at the right time and so it got traction attracted great people and things like that

and in a world where like an idea can be made and and and we've seen this with I think bunch of marketing on ax over the last year where if somebody has like a good style of launch video it will be immediately replicated within a month

and then it will become just kind of like flooded and the meta will kind of die quickly

and so in a world where like ideas are are like cheaper than ever. Is it really just about like idea guys getting lapped by people that are great at executing and it's like, "Yeah, you had this great idea. You shipped it. Someone else saw that and it's like, that's a great idea. I'm going to ship it today and then I'm just going to outexecute you." Uh,

someone should launch their startup with a congressional testimony. That would be a great aura if you just the first time you're ever seeing about this company. They're just answering questions and getting grilled by Congress people about what their what their plans are. It's always like typically the top of the mountain like Mark Zuckerberg built Facebook for decade then he starts getting called to testify then he starts getting sued but if you just come out the gate day one

Augustus was kind of Augustus was kind of

he was like half the time in Alagundo half the time on the road

he wasn't he wasn't being called to testify he was like you know standing up

I know but he's kind of doing bit

yeah it kind of did work like that it's very funny uh anyway let me tell you about Figma Ship the best version, not the first one with Figma. Introducing Quad Code to Figma. Explore more options. Push ideas further.

Uh, we got new Apple products.

What's coming out

this coming week?

Oh, yeah.

Uh, we don't know exactly. It's a It's the

It has the Apple logo on it, though. We know that.

We do know that.

Touchscreen Mac.

Oh, that's why that's why that's why they're touching it.

Are you guys How are you guys thinking about the touchcreen Mac? Because one of my least favorite things in the workplace is when people put their fingers

on my screen. It makes my blood boil.

Yeah.

Uh and so, uh

maybe they have some new like are they I I could see Apple at this point. They've got the iPhone sock. They could have like a little attachment that has like a clean like a little

a cleaner, you know, a little spray bottle like an Apple spray bottle. They could have a magnetized Roomba and you put it on you stick it to your screen while you walk away and it and it drives around identifies the

Yeah, like a Zambon. Like a Zamboni.

Yeah, like a Zamboni.

So messy.

The Apple Zambon screen.

I don't know.

You want to create the problem and then have the product that solves the problem in the same launch. So touchcreen Mac with the Roomba.

Yeah. I I that that's such an odd that's such an odd choice because I feel like the whole I feel like the whole we've like humanity has gone down the path of like the touchscreen laptop and it's been available for for years maybe over a decade and I just feel like it's never really broken through and if it was if we were at least seeing like oh yeah well like obviously like 80% of PC users have a touchcreen and it's clearly a dominant form factor for a lot of

it's like the the the reason

the reason for the touchcreen is like I'm I'm away for my computer. I can't carry around a dedicated keyboard and mouse. So, I guess I just have to figure out a way to use the screen for everything. But, it's not superior if I if I have room on my desk for a keyboard.

I'm always going to be faster doing the like it's going to you're going to it's going to look very maybe maybe it's better for people that aren't as technative. Like I can imagine like like an maybe older family member like you know wanting to zoom in on a photo and maybe it's more native to them to

to kind of like use the the kind of like pinch functionality.

Yeah. It feels hard though like if it's in a again I don't even know if this is what they're releasing but if it's on a laptop like I I actually kind of have to like reach past the keyboard. It seems like a far reach to like like if you're like even keeping your arm held like raised like this for more than like 30 seconds would get I think tiring for most people anyway.

I don't know. The first time I saw that I just thought Mac Mini honestly

because it just looks like

well they're making the Mac Mini in the USA. They came out with that announcement.

Houston, right?

And I will be, you know, getting rid of my current Mac Mini and buy the USA. Made in the USA.

Of course.

Of course.

Running Kimmy 2.5 on my made in the USA Mac Mini. Well, uh, we have some videos to watch, but we don't have IM for you. So, uh, we should probably let you go get back to the rest of your day. Thank you so much for coming and hanging out.

Yeah, absolutely.

We will see you soon. Let me tell you about Octa. Octa helps you assign every AI agent a trusted identity. So, you get the power of AI without the risk. Secure any agent, secure every agent with Octa. And let me also tell you about Console. console builds AI agents that automate