Jared Isaacman and Scott Kupor on NASA's plan to launch moon rockets in months, not years

code review for the Age of AI. Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. And without further ado, we have Scott Kabore returning to the show and Jared Eisen for the first time. Welcome to the show. How are you guys doing?

What's happening? We're doing great. How are you?

We're doing fantastically. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. Uh please uh take us through the news today because uh I'm very excited to hear from you. I'm very excited to be joined by you today. Well, I'm just here for moral support for my good friend Jared. So Jared, you want to uh you want to give him the give him the news?

Fantastic.

Sure. And uh by the way, I appreciate you giving me a 100-year time frame on the Dyson sphere cuz uh it's been

it's I mean we're we're over a half century here just getting back to the moon. So we got to take things in steps. But um but really that's

that's where the partnership with uh with OPM comes in and Scott uh has been a champion for us here with NASA force. Uh we we got to rebuild some of our core competencies here at NASA. You know, we um we made some big announcements last week that said, look, we if we want to get back to the moon, we want to achieve President Trump's vision within the time frames that have been uh that have been established, we're going to have to do things differently. We're not going to launch moon rockets every 3 years. We're going to try and launch them in less than a year. And people are like, that's impossible. And I was like, have we, you know, I literally went and got the data from the uh Mercury Gemini and Apollo era saying, you know, we used to do this every three and a half months. We we literally from from the time Apollo 7 splashed down to Apollo 8 launch to fly around the moon is measured in weeks. It's like 8 n weeks here. So what do you mean we can't do it? Well, they said, "Look, we don't have some of the same expertise we used to have."

Yeah.

During the space shuttle era of turning our mobile launchers around. you know, if you're launching every three years, you build up all this experience and expertise and then they then they go out uh after the mission is launched and they go into industry. So, we got to we got to do some things differently right now. And one of which is uh we got to start bringing in folks back from industry that have the expertise to grow our young talent because we we have no shortage of people that want to grow up and work at NASA. I mean, you know, like from the time they're kids, they want to get there. So plenty of you know young talent coming in the system but uh but but what Scott and OPM are are giving uh us the ability to do is bring in term-based appointments from industry some brilliant minds from you know SpaceX, Blue Origin, Rocket Lab, all our great tech companies who say I want to serve my country. I want to stick around for a couple years under a term-based appointment. Elevate some of the talent. That's how we're going to get back into turning rockets around in months instead of years. That's how we're going to get back to the moon. So there's amazing this is part of I was just gonna say look this is part of a broader thing that I think you and I have talked about a little bit which is

there's kind of two pieces we're trying to solve on the you know the government tech side. One is obviously can we get early career young people in as as Jared said you know kind of NASA unlike most of the federal government actually has done a really good job there. The other piece is how do we leverage the private sector to help make sure that we have much better connectivity the private sector and public government. And so the second part of tech force right was always the private companies having people come in. Obviously, we want to basically double down on that now for NASA force uh and make sure that we've got kind of all those relevant industry partners who are saying, "Hey, look, we want to have like some of our best people come in, succumb themselves for a year or two, help make NASA, you know, as effective as possible in bringing up the next generation of folks and then if people want to go back to the private sector, like that's great. They can go do that."

Yeah. So, talk about the the the type of roles that you need at NASA. When I think NASA, I think uh frontier science, rocket science, but also the actual astronauts. And then when I think of industry, I think of like the manufacturing expertise, the person that's going to build the rockets repeatedly because there's this beautiful partnership between the private industry and NASA these days. Uh, but what how does that actually when the rubber meets the road, who do you need to come join NASA that might not or you know they're they're perfectly suited to advance NASA's mission right now?

Yeah. Well, I'll tell you there's two categories there that you mentioned that we don't need to worry about. So, astronauts, we we always get, you know, tens of thousands of applications there. So, that that's good. And I would even say on science because when it comes to the planetary science and helophysics that we do at NASA, no one, we're the only game in town. So, you know, in in 2028, we're going to launch a nuclearpowered octacopter to Titan to search for signs of life. You're going to want to come to NASA to do that job. But, but there are areas where we have, you know, some overlap with industry when it comes to building our um our heavy lift rocket SLS. um where uh you know industry is also doing very similar things which to be honest is a problem.

NASA should only be focused on the near impossible what no one else can do but but SLS is a component of a broader strategy that President Trump laid out with Artemis. We're starting with SLS. Eventually we'll evolve to other vehicles so that there's an Artemis 100 and beyond someday. But while we have some of that overlap when it comes to uh our our launchpad, uh turning launch operations, mechanical engineers there, uh we need propulsion engineers that are are can be helpful on our vehicles, uh those that have uh cryofluid uh you know, specializations so we can stop some of these hydrogen leaks, some of these helium flow issues we've had before. Those are areas that industry is extremely well verssed because we have the healthiest uh commercial launch industry that we've had in the history of America's space program. And to get people that want to serve their country, give us a couple years over at NASA, elevate our talent. Like I said, it's g it's going to make a huge difference in terms of turning our vehicles, launching with greater frequency, and achieving the president's national space policy.

Can you walk me through the current top few reasons why the moon is important? Just as a high level, I want to go back. I'm already on board, but for those people who say, "I want to hang out on Earth. Why are we going to the moon? Why is the moon important? Why is it valuable?

Okay, so uh I I'm really glad you asked this question and there's quite a few answers that go along with it. First, the whole like shouldn't there be other things that we we should be doing? Yeah, and we do. A very small percentage of our resources are actually invested into, you know, a national imperative goal like return to the moon. This isn't the 1960s anymore, you know, where it's 4 and a.5% of the discretionary budget. It's a quarter of a percentage. And you know who's making up the difference? Private industry. You know, folks like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos are putting billions of their own resources in play to build capabilities for the good of the American people and really all of humankind. So, it's not, you know, the taxpayers footing the the bill to do this like it was in the 1960s. Now, what are some other uh reasons that we should do it? How about we made a promise to the American people and have for 35 years? Every president for 35 years has said we're going to return to the moon. It was only President Trump under his first term when he created the Aremis program. Now in his second term, my first day on the job where he signs a national space policy that says not only go back to the moon but also build out a moon base. Are we taking steps in that direction? And after a hundred billion dollars, think we owe it to the American people to do it. I'll give you national security reasons to do it. 1969, July 20th, America lands Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin on the moon, brings him safely back to Earth. It sends a message to the world. What else is America capable of doing? Well, if you take 35 years and 100 billion and you fail to do it, well, it sends the exact opposite message. That's a real national security implication because then it says something's broken and now I'm going to encroach on America's leadership across all the most important technological domains. Here's the here's another good reason. We don't know what we're going to find. I mean, that's the best part of the greatest adventure in human history is going out and learning scientific economic reasons. We will go to the south pole of the moon where there's ice. We will use that as a proving ground for power, navigation, communication, insitue resource manufacturing, the capabilities we're going to need when we someday send American astronauts to Mars. And then we got to be able to bring them back. And the way you're going to do that is probably making propellant on Mars. I'd rather do that two and a half days from Earth than nine months away from Earth.

I love it. Jordy, those bars

fired me up. Fired me up. Um uh how do how do people actually uh apply to NASA and how broadly are you casting the net? Uh I I I think you identified the the astronaut program being like the most elite of the most elite. We've all seen that one guy who was like a Navy Seal and then a doctor and then he became

Honey Kim.

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Uh but but

what's what's he do? What's he doing now by the way? Any idea?

I don't know. Is he still an actor?

So he Oh, yeah. He's definitely I mean look Johnny Kim is a rock star right I mean you know Navy Seal

you know Navy Seal sniper then goes and gets his MD he got it from Harvard right so he becomes a doctor then he becomes a NASA astronaut while he's waiting for his mission he goes to Navy pilot training becomes a a Navy a naval aviatoring there's nothing this guy can't do just came back from the space station he was up there for nine months he actually went up on a Russian soyuse rocket uh so now he's entitled uh to some time off. Although I'm I'm going to do everything I can to convince him to come to HQ and uh and help us out a little bit cuz that kind of leadership and competence like we need we need as much of that as we can get at the top of the organization.

Yeah, that's amazing.

I guess your question like if I'm not if I'm not a Navy Seal sniper and I'm not, you know, I'm just a guy who's hardworking. I'm an American and I want a job at NASA. What are the different roles that are open? What are the skill sets that you're looking for and how do you actually apply? Yeah, I mean we're I I tell you we're looking for a lot of engineers and a lot of technicians. Uh there's a lot of ways to learn about opportunities. You can go anywhere from NASA's website to uh USA jobs. Um we we certainly have positions open and we're we're hitting this in a couple fronts. We uh another area where Scott has been super helpful, one of the biggest surprises when I was on the job is 75% of our workforce is contractors. Now they they get paid exactly almost exactly the same thing as civil servants. they don't necessarily get all the same benefits. Uh but they're working for companies that have a 40% uh gross profit premium on top of it, which actually, you know, is about a billion a year, a little more than that, that we could be using for science and discovery. But even more than that, they have different tools for collaboration for HR systems. Just, you know, you take 75% of your workforce is contractors and then you combine that with five prime contractors and hundreds of subcontractors building your rockets. Probably no wonder why some things take a little longer than they should, cost a little bit more than they should. So, we're converting a lot of contractors back to civil servants. Uh, we have this great pipeline of young talent that comes in through um through our internship programs. We have over a thousand every uh I think it's on like a trimester type basis. We bring in fresh talent. But then really, how do you bring up that talent and make them, you know, make them lethal within the the the domains that we focus on here at NASA? You know, those critical engineering capabilities and

yeah,

science, operations, and technicians. That's where uh that's where NASA's tech force comes in.

Scott,

yeah, I was going to say just on the Yeah, from a tactical perspective, if anybody's interested today, just go to, you know, US tech force uh and we will obviously make sure we have it. And then as we uh roll out formally the NASA force side of it, we'll have a separate landing page for people and make sure that we can uh get folks whether they're coming in on the engineering side or whether you know they're coming from private sector, but easiest way to go right now is just go to US Tech Force and uh we will absolutely make sure that we get you in the queue here.

Fantastic. Uh Jared, can you reflect on uh going to space? How did that happen? What does it mean? Would you recommend it for other folks?

I think like a lot of things in my career, I got very lucky.

Um so I certainly I mean I I definitely can tell you when I was in kindergarten that I said I wanted to grow up and be an astronaut. The chances of that I thought would be uh you know near zero in life.

Um but got very lucky. Uh you know kind of um you know reached out at the right time. Uh I I mean this goes back actually 2008. I went to Bikenor, Kazakhstan to see a Soyuse launch with a lot of the early uh pioneers of the commercial space industry

and I just kept knocking on the door until uh it was the right time and then uh got lucky to lead you know SpaceX first mission to orbit inspiration 4 followed up with a developmental program uh in uh September of 2024. We went farther into space. We tested a new space suit. We used uh we communicated over a beam of light. It was very cool. Um, but I'll tell you that uh despite the views that I've um that I've seen, the opportunities that I've had in space, I've got the uh I got the best job in the world right now.

Yeah. Uh do you see part of your mission or part of your legacy uh being not only the economic opportunity on the moon, the national interest mission on the moon, but actually just allowing more humans to experience space. Is that important?

Yeah. Well, and they go hand in hand with economic opportunity, right? So, I do point out all the time that I actually think one of the most important KPIs is more people living and working in space. Uh, now for that to happen, I mean, because I I'm I'm not a believer there's a huge like tourism pipeline in this because it still costs a lot and it'll never be the safety level of an airliner. So, you're still, you know, taking a controlled explosion, you know, 1.8 million pounds of thrust, send somebody to 17,500 miles an hour. that's, you know, and when they get there, odds are really good they're not even going to feel good.

So, uh, so we got to we got to crack the code on the orbital economy, um, that some days necessitates more people living and working in space. But if you're asking what I hope the greatest contribution at NASA, um because it's not landing on the moon, that's that's just that's just luck honestly to be here at a time where President Trump gives us the mandate, the resources from the one big beautiful bill, uh congressional appropriations, like you have all the tools to execute on that. Really, in my mind, it's uh it's uh concentrating our resources here at NASA on the needle movers. you know, sometimes you get, you know, mile wide, inch deep on a on on all the things you're trying to do, but really focus on the things that no one else is capable of doing but but NASA. And then empowering the workforce, like the best and brightest across the nation, get rid of as much needless bureaucracy and things that impede progress. And if you can do that, then then things like returning to the moon and building a moon base will be pale in comparison to what we're capable of achieving in the years ahead.

Last question, bit of a funny one. in the chat asked, "What's the best watch to bring to space?"

Yeah. I mean, I don't even know if like I'm even allowed in this role to endorse a brand. Am I not real trouble here?

Probably not.

I guess anyone that can that that keeps the time accurately. Uh well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Have a great rest of your day and we'll talk

Great to meet you, Jared. And always good to have you on the show, Scott.

Yeah, we'll talk to you soon. Goodbye. Let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB. Don't just build AI. Own the data platform that powers it. And let me also tell you about Lambda. Lambda is the super intelligence cloud. Building AI supercomputers for training and inference and scale from one GPU to hundreds of thousands. Uh it is in the government role. There's so many there's there's so many things you can't do. Uh but uh according to the chat, he has a fantastic watch collection. And I was wondering if there was a momento that he brought with him because you know the story of the moon's watch you know this whole the moon watch uh the was it going to be a Rolex? Was it going to be an Omega? Wound up being an Omega. Very very interesting bit of watch history. We can dive into it at some other time.

Breaking news from this morning.

What happened?

Tucker Carlson's

Oh yes.

Uh uh shipment of nicotine was hijacked. Very traumatic.

An attack on one nicotine pouch brand is an attack on us all. I mean, Tyler me this morning. Tyler was like, "Hey."

Oh. Oh, you think I'm guilty. I'm not guilty. Talk

you were a little bit late for the gym today and we thought maybe

hijacking a little Fast and Furious. That's what Josh said.

Dylansson says, "Stealing a truckload of Tarker Carlson branded nicotine pouches is like the plot to a Zoomer reboot of the Fast and the Furious."

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In In the uh Have you seen the original Fast and Furious, Jordy?

No.

It is so embarrassing. I've seen I've certainly seen trailers and or seen

Have you seen any Fast and Furious movies? Any of them?

There's so many good ones. Anyway, in there's like 40 of them, right?

Yeah. And they uh there's like 12. Uh they they and they all have like puns as names. So there's uh the original movie is called The Fast and the Furious. Then later they just came out with one that's just called Fast and Furious, which is very confusing. Then they had fast five. They had too fast, too furious, which is hilarious. Uh I was really hoping that for the 10th movie they were going to do fast 10 your seat belts. That would have been a good pun, but they didn't. And then they did the Fate of the Furious. Effing.

All right, Dad.

There we go. I got you. Anyway, in the Fast and Furious, they they they're stealing, I think, DVD players. And so they they they hijack a truck

because they love movies so much.

They love movies. It's it's insider dealing because it's like the movie industry is like we got to promote the DVD players, make them, you know, oh, you want these DVD players, right? What else you got, J?

Trey says the IWC that Jared wore to space, he Jared auctioned off for charity.

Okay. Okay. Well, I should have asked a more more pointed question about that. Anyway, uh let me tell you about Vanta