Maximus CEO makes the case for performance medicine: FDA-approved hormones and peptides as founder stack

broken and helps them fix it fast. That's why 150,000 organizations use it to keep their apps working. And let me also tell you about cognition. They're the makers of Devon, the AI software engineer. Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team. And we have Cam Cameron here in the studio. Uh are you a doctor? Should I be calling you doctor?

You don't need to call me doctor, but I am a licensed clinical psychologist.

Wow. Uh congratulations. Give a little bit of your background, explain the company, and then obviously I want to dive into the current thing, which is the peptide debate.

Of course. Yeah. So um I'm Dr. Cameron Sapa. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist. I served as an assistant clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCSF School of Medicine for over a decade.

That's a good school, right?

Uh it's the number three medical school in the country. And um since 2012, I've become a serial healthcare entrepreneur. Um so I was on the founding team of Amada Health, which is a unicorn that went public last year that creates online weight loss programs. It's helped a million people lose 10 million pounds and cut their risk of diabetes and heart disease in half.

That's a great KPI.

Um the thing I'm much more proud of than the financial outcome. um spent a year at Trinity Ventures on the VC side of the business and now I'm currently the founder and CEO of Maximus where we are pioneering performance medicine.

And what's the core focus of Maximus? Obviously, we're going to talk about peptides, but you've been in the business since before the peptide boom. Correct.

For sure. Yeah. And peptides is is really uh you know almost like a meaningless term. It just really means like drugs. It's a particular chain of amino acids um that are getting hyped right now. But performance medicine spans hormones, peptides, and other small molecules. Yeah, it does.

You'll appreciate. So, we we we were at a conference in 2024 and it was like we had we had just started doing the show and we were asked to give a talk kind of last second. So, we were like, "Oh, what should we talk about?" And it was uh it was meant to be like somewhat of a provocative subject and we were making the case that uh basically founders should be on like a performance drug stack, right? And that venture capital firms should have platform teams. Platform teams should be like they have their go to market team. They have their brand team. They'll help hiring. They'll help you optimize your performance tech. But how important is performance these days outside of you know bodybuilding competitions.

Yeah. You know I I think a lot of in fact um the trend that we're seeing this huge consumer wave whether in peptides or sort of performance enhancement really trickles down from professional athletes and bodybuilders. You know, one uh kind of hack I I describe is you can look at the water list, the world anti-doping association, and that gives you a pretty good indication.

That was our point is like there's no there's no banned substances. I mean, there are like actual legal drugs, but there's not like there's no governing body in business that says you cannot take these because they actually they work too well.

Exactly. Right. And I have a private practice on the side. I work with the top Silicon Valley CEOs and VCs. I can tell you without naming names, a lot of the folks that you interview are taking essentially uh doctor prescribed but performance-enhancing um substances in order to be more effective at their jobs with less stress.

And what does that mean effective? Because like you just being in shape and you know being able to walk around and not be too tired during the day that's valuable, but then there's also focus. if you're working on a spreadsheet or programming like there's so many different like levers to pull on performance broadly how do you narrow it down is it case by case

yeah so the way I describe it I think there's sort of five foundational health behaviors so diet exercise stress management and intimacy are the five things that are critical for health span and lifespan and let me make a little bit of an analogy that I think really captures the the field of performance medicine so Steve Jobs used to love to tell a story about how there's an article in Scientific American that would track um how effective uh various animals of the world are at locomotion. So who can travel a kilometer with the least amount of calories. Right now the condor a bird was the most efficient animal and human beings.

Um human beings despite being you know the crown of crown jewel of creation were like a third of the way down the list. So it was pretty pretty unimpressive showing. But someone had the bright idea and they said if you give a human being a bicycle they skyrocket to the top of the list. And so Steve would make that analogy that the personal computer is the bicycle for the mind, right? And really revolutionize the world with that idea. I'd argue now we're seeing the precipice of two new revolutions in that AI is the motorcycle for the mind. It's not only as smart as a PhD, but it has all of the PhDs and can work 24/7.

Um and similarly, we're seeing um a revolution in biology and this shift towards performance medicine. So, if you take the five foundational health behaviors that I described and you want to enhance your ability to do these things because they're critical to your health, you probably have a supplement stack like you're saying, right? So, let's just walk down those five things. So, if you're trying to enhance your exercise and the main goal of exercise is to build muscle mass, you're probably going to take the most studied erogenic supplement, which is creatine. Yep. Right now, creatine, if you just sit on your couch all day, is not going to do much for you except make you bloated. But if you combine it with strength training, it will increase slightly the amount of your lean mass. Now, what happens if you introduce testosterone? Now, testosterone, there was a great study that was done.

Don't get John started, don't tempt it.

There was a great study that was done that gave guys testosterone and told them not to exercise. They gave another group um they told them to exercise without testosterone. And then obviously the combination, now the combination obviously grew the most amount of muscle in that testosterone and strength training are obviously synergistic. But the fascinating thing is the guys who took testosterone and sat on their butt all day grew far more muscles than the guys who were lifting weight five days a week without testosterone,

right? It is literally a cheat code. And so it literally mogs creatine, if you will. Um, in that it is far more performance-enhancing, which is why it's banned by water.

Ridiculous.

And so really, if you want to uh, you know, grow muscle in the most efficient way possible, testosterone is is clearly the best way of doing it. Now, what about diet?

Wait, quickly on creatine, I have a question. So, I heard a theory that uh creatine has benefits outside of muscle building. And the basic effect was that it helps with hydration. It's good to be hydrated. It's it's helping your cells retain water, which is why some people complain about creatine. Oh, it's just water weight, but water in your muscles makes your muscles look bigger. So, people are happy with that. But, uh that creatine could potentially be beneficial outside of a bodybuilding context.

Yeah. So, there's some recent studies that show that it can help with sleep deprivation. Okay. So, there's some brain absorption.

You have to take a ton of it for that, though.

Yeah. It's I think it's a little over.

I've tried I've tried doing that on some. I'm like, I don't know, boss. I don't know if I can have another I don't know if I can have the 50th gummy today to get

Well, that's the irony, right? People are meggaosing creatine in order to ek out some some very slight performance-enhancing benefits when they could be taking testosterone and having very clear performance-enhancing benefits, right? So the other health behavior diet obviously critical for minimizing fat uh body fat. So the most common supplement that you can take to try to regulate your appetite is fiber right almost everyone takes fiber in some form or another whether through whole foods or a supplement. You might lose one maybe 2% of your body fat. If you're consuming a fiber supplement but now with these prescription GLP1s semiglutide

to your zeppatide there it's clinical studies are showing 14.7% weight loss 22% weight loss. So it absolutely trumps anything that you can take in terms of a supplement and it's obviously literally bending the obesity curve in America.

It's remarkable.

If you look at sleep, the most common overthe-c counter supplement for sleep is melatonin, right? Melatonin mildly works. It can particularly help if you have jet lag. But what if you take a growth hormone peptide? So when you

really aggressive

it is, but think about this. Your growth hormone peaks at puberty and it actually declines throughout your lifespan. What if you stub your toe? Have you considered trend?

Well, trend is an anabolic steroid that we would not recommend for most people

or sub toe.

Um there's a lot of anti

like, "All right, you force me for my I'll take it."

Yeah, for sure. But but the fascinating thing is because um growth hormone declines across the lifespan, you can take a growth hormone peptide and just restore yourself back to youthful levels.

And that's what a lot of the scientific consensus is about. Not the super physiological levels, not getting your testosterone 10,000 times bigger than what it would be naturally, but if you are truly at a deficit, bringing you back in line, that's that that's sort of the sort of the medical consensus. Correct.

Exactly. So, there are growth hormone peptides now, smearlin and tesamelin that enhance sleep, they enhance recovery, um allow people to sleep back till they're towards that 7 to to n hours of sleep that that's critical for physiological restoration. Okay. Um, if you think about um stress management, the other kind of fourth health behavior, the most common supplement that people take is magnesium. It helps you kind of be calm and kind of not be too stressed. It works mildly as well, but now you can take oxytocin. So oxytocin, you probably know, is sort of the love connection hormone, right? Um, we've actually developed um a topical formulation of it. So you can actually apply it, I'll show you what it looks like. This is a little container. You can apply it intraasally or on thin skin um such as the scrotum or the pennium. It absorbs and um it reduces cortisol, the stress hormone, and it helps people feel more connected far more than you know a magnet.

This is what the the kickstreamers need if they get frame mogged.

Oh, that's true. The cortisol spike an epipen epipen.

It will prevent actually a cortisol spreading frame.

Yes,

there you go. Yeah. You don't just dabble apply it, I would say.

Um and then finally, intimacy, I think, is the most underrated health behavior. Um zinc is the most common supplement that people take um in terms of enhancing sort of sexual function but um the ED drugs Tadal um Viagra Vardaphil there's been a big boom with him and hers and Roman so people are taking that um because it not only enhances sexual function in terms of erectile strength ability to last longer enhancing um the enjoyment of sex but it actually increases blood flow to all of your body and to your muscles to your brain. People take it as a pre-workout. Um there's interesting associational research showing that it reduces the um uh incidence of Alzheimer's and dementia. There needs to be further studies that need needs to be done to substantiate that. But um that's the future that I see is that almost everyone right now has sort of that supplement stack. But I predict this is my kind of bold prediction is that the top founders and VCs in the next 5 years will be taking at least three of those five things that I mentioned. So testosterone to build muscle, tearsetide to drop fat, um tesa moralin to increase growth hormone and recovery, tadalaphil to increase intimacy and blood flow and oxytocin to reduce their stress.

Okay. So uh those five So you have the five supplements and then the five drugs that need prescriptions, right? Is your prediction that the the FDA will approve off nonprescription versions of those exact chemicals or that everyone will sort of elevate to working with a doctor that can actually write prescriptions?

Yeah, it's a great question. All of these um prescription drugs that I mentioned are already FDA approved. Yes. But a physician has the right to prescribe any of these off label, right? So, Tedalopil is a great example. It's FDA approved for erectile dysfunction, but we actually prescribe it as a blood flow enhancer. So, some people literally take it as a prescription preworkout for nonsexual reasons or they are taking it as an anti-aging sort of drug.

Um because that's sort of the the vision of performance medicine is it's not just treating a deficit or a medical problem, but it's enhancing your health, your aesthetics or your performance.

Sure. Um and so uh like between those two you you would expect like many more doctor's visits, many more consultations with medical professionals to get access to that tier of prescription only medicines. Yeah. Well, I feel like that fits into this

like, you know, put differently, you're positioning this as like much more proactive approach to medicine, not just trying to survive when something bad happens or you're experiencing some sort of disease, but like proactively trying to take yourself from the baseline

to the best you can possibly.

Yeah, you absolutely nailed it. The problem is right now in America, we don't have a healthare system. We have a sick care system, right? And it's run by an oligopoly of insurance companies that are not in the business of providing healthcare. They're in the business of denying healthcare. very sadly and tragically when the

UHG there's some issue there's some issues where like various health tech companies will you know be talking to VCs and they'll say like oh like we're going to be able to get access to insurance dollars or and and uh the issue with that is that insurance companies don't care if something will make you healthy

in 10 years because you're most likely going to be on a new insurance plan they're just wasting money right they expect you the average American stays at their job like you know low singledigit years I think and so that just means like they're like that's great you're going to be healthier later but but I'm not going to pay for the benefit of some other insurance carrier.

Yeah that was what we learned at Omada because we sold through employers that if the employer didn't retain their employees for more than 3 years there's no point of selling into it because they're like it's not my problem someone else is going to have to pay for it. So the really the antidote to that is performance medicine in that it bypasses the insurance system altogether and within basically we're a cash pay private practice that operates in all 50 states

and our belief is that the only person that should be making a decision is you and your doctor and that every drug of course has um risks but it's up to you and your doctor to decide whether the cost benefit is worth it for you

in making that decision not the insurance companies who are really in the business of minimizing the amount of care. I'll give you a really great example of this. If anyone measures their testosterone levels, unless you're below the 2 and a half percentile, the insurance company will deem you're not sick enough essentially to be warranted to have the bottom be in the bottom two and a half

two and a half percentile. So the question is naturally what happens to the other 97 12% of Americans? Um obviously the lower half of that would probably feel better in terms of their energy, their motivation, their drive, their sexual function, their ability to build muscle mass. But even folks who are let's say low normal would probably benefit from a higher level of testosterone in terms of the performance enhancement that we're talking about. Yeah. Right. Insurance will never pay for that. And so there's been a proliferation of the rise of sort of private practices like Maximus in order to really meet the needs because I think there's this huge consumer trend which includes peptides and hormones of people who want to enhance their health, enhance their performance and enhance the quality of their life.

Yeah. uh what are you how are you advising uh clients uh and just people broadly around the risks associated with peptides? There's a debate

raging right now just like efficacy but also the potential risk because we don't necessarily have

uh for some of them we have plenty of data even if we don't have uh fullon uh full-on studies uh but but how are you kind of guiding people? Yeah. The really the question is which peptides in which drugs because we can't sort of um

because some are fully approved.

Yeah. Exactly. So the GLPs are are really these are peptides as well. Oxytocin that I mentioned those are also peptides that literally been FDA approved some of them for decades.

Um have a very u substantial body of literature on them. And so you know comparing that to let's say a BPC which is not FDA approved is is a very different ballgame. So responsible clinics I would say um like ours are only prescribing FDA approved drugs that have a very substantial body of human literature in addition to a lot of clinical experience right so some of the like we're actually the largest prescriber for instance in clomophene in the United States we publish studies with uh ends in the thousands um on the safety and efficacy of these things and so um with the body of literature then I think you can evaluate each drug on their own merits and decide okay is this something that's worth prescribing as a clinic and then obviously each person between them and their doctor make a decision of whether that cost benefit is worth it for them. Now, I think um you know, individuals can always make a choice in taking something that's a little bit more experimental. That's up to them. But really, I really recommend that people are getting it through um a doctor and it's um fulfilled by an FDA inspected compounding pharmacy. That's

regular. What kind of Have you heard any horror stories around these kind of like offshore uh compounders? Just people getting

Those aren't compounders. Those are just Yeah, there's a lot of people who are just literally um buying black market illegal drugs um directly from manufacturers or from resellers in the United States. Um and yeah, I mean, you know, there's literally um labs that are the problem is you can't ensure what you're getting is pure. Um it's even the compound like Peptide Sciences, which just shut down was, you know, people were testing it. They're buying a non-FDA approved GLP um that's soon to be on the market. Um and literally it didn't Yeah. it didn't contain any of redda in the vial or what's a common thing is they it might contain it but the dose might be off by 50%. And so what you're seeing is people having side effects um because rea is a glucagon a agonist. It has effects on the heart increases heart rate reduces heart rate variability. If you're not able to dose it properly proper properly you're more likely to have side effects as a result. So it's a wild west. Um any responsible clinician would say don't buy things on the black market. Now obviously individuals can make their own libertarian choices about what they do but the um difference is that there are good alternatives on the market. For instance, tears of a tide um is generally efficacious for weight loss. There's no reason for most people be to be taking rea and also to be dealing with one that's FDA approved.

We have one that's FDA approved too actually.

You know that it's pure. You know that it's uh relatively safe because there's a wide body of literature and it doesn't have the cardia effects. So, do you think do you think Hollywood is going to be somewhat of a model for Silicon Valley in the sense that like actors are have historically been like how did this actor have this insane transformation and they're like chicken broccoli a lot of water and it's like I don't know about that. Uh but but it basically is like bodybuilders lead the charge. Hollywood

uh kind of picks up on that and then and then but but is Hollywood kind of the somewhat of of the model?

Yeah, I think so. And I think increasingly Silicon Valley uh investors and founders are going to increasingly become the model. The problem with Hollywood is until maybe recently a lot of people literally had to lie and say they weren't on TRT despite the fact I have friends who are personal trainers to these guys who prep them for the movies. They're clearly on performance-enhancing drugs. Nobody nobody's like it is irresponsible for like you know Zack Efron to be like yeah I'm on TRT cuz a bunch of young people see that like I want to look like that. Exactly. But this is This is a really great point that you you mentioned about sort of young people in TRT and this was actually one of the whole you know founding genesis of Maximus, right? So testosterone is a really interesting compound. The gold standard is injectable testosterone. So if you inject exogenous testosterone from outside of your body, your body realizes it's getting enough and so your testicles will shut down, shrink, and you become infertile. So nobody under the age of 50 or nobody who wants to still have children should really be injecting testosterone. Now, you can take something called hCG, um, which is a replacement for LH, and it can help you get off of it and restore your fertility, but it's not perfect. Um, and it's there's some risks involved.

Um, however, there are, um, alternatives nowadays. So, we actually prescribe oral and topical testosterone, so you don't need to inject it. Um, and it's native testosterone. It's the same testosterone that your body makes. The problem with injectable testosterone is we made sort of an interesting devil's bargain is we took testosterone and we added a molecule to it called an esther. So you probably have heard of testosterone cipionate. The benefit of the Esther is that because it's annoying to inject every single day, you only need to inject it once a week. So it becomes more convenient. The downside is it redines your testosterone for 24/7 for a whole week and so it shuts down and suppresses your indogenous production. So you basically become dependent on it and if you come off of it, you're going to go through withdrawal symptoms. The benefit of oral testosterone is that it peaks within 2 to 4 hours, lasts about 6 to 8, and topical testosterone peaks at about 2 and 1/2 hours, lasts about 12 to 6. And so they're shorter halflife, shorter duration, and they're less suppressive. The interesting thing that we found in our research is that if you take oral testosterone, it's actually not very suppressive for most people. And if you combine it with inclenine, which is a selective estrogen receptor modulator, it basically blocks estrogen in a particular part of the brain, the hypothalamus and the pituitary. um it prevents that suppression from happening and so you can kind of have your cake and eat it too for the first time in that it you

like a free lunch

a little there's no such thing as completely a biological free lunch but you can maintain your natural testosterone production and then supplement it with oral testosterone and clamophene and then the really revolutionary thing that we found is topical testosterone which has been used for over half a century you apply it to your scrotum it can increase your testosterone by several fold it's normally suppressive but when you add incline to it you can maintain your natural testosterone production and enhance it to high high normal levels. In fact, um we've patent we have two patents on the combination of oral and topical testosterone plus and clomophene. And so actually men as young as 18 can take these without suppressing their fertility markers. So it's really a revolution and it allows us to really um fulfill the vision of performance medicine because there are safer alternatives. Um, the injectable testosterone is still great for the guys who are over 50 and they don't mind being on it for the rest of their lives, but they're now essentially safer alternatives for younger guys or guys who want to maintain their fertility and we're actively doing this research, publishing it, patenting these protocols and disseminating them so we can democratize performance medicine.

How do you think about the uh personalization of medicine? We we talked to Paul Coiningham on Monday. He was the fellow who uh used AI to process some DNA data around his dog who was suffering from cancer and was able to work with a lab to synthesize a custom mRNA vaccine that was targeting the specific cancer that his dog had sort of looking at the delta between the healthy dog's DNA and the cancerous DNA in the same animal and then was able to create sort of a oneofone medicine for that dog. Uh I could imagine that coming to well there's these peptides they work broadly on populations but in the future is there a world where you're getting a tzepide that's designed specifically for you and would there actually be a benefit of that or is that where we're going?

Absolutely. It's already here. In fact with tieride we have micro doses. So this is like

so that's modulating the the amount of correct of product but not the actual molecular construction at all. It's um in that in this particular case it's not um but the the the benefit of doing a micro dose for instance it's for people who are not overweight right so BMI under 25

they may not even want to lose weight but they might want to take it to reduce their inflammaging is sort of the term that's that's used um it reduces you know impulsivity can just help reduce some of the food noise um and maybe there's some folks who are not necessarily overweight but they want to maintain a six-pack without having to constantly fight this willpower battle for the rest of their life that's obviously a little bit more aesthetic and performance enhancing, but that custom dose, we can people can kind of find the right dose that's fits for them. So, yes, there's going to be both personalized medicines in terms of the the type of medicine, but also I think the dosing is really critical because it allows flexibility. So, included the market, literally the only dosage that was available 25 millig and it's like him,

that's what they studied.

You get 25 milligs of Viagra no matter who you are, right? We offer eight different dosages all the way from 3.125 milligs to 25 millig. And the way that we titrate it is actually through lab testing. So we have an at home blood test. Okay.

Um you don't have to go to a quest. You can just stick it on your shoulder. You press a button and you can take out about a half a pinky full of blood and we can not measure a 100 markers like at Quest, but we can measure about a dozen of them including you take it to a lab. That

exactly males next day air to a lab. So you can take your baseline levels. You know where you stand. Yep. And then we can put you on let's say topical testosterone plus and clamophene. You'll probably notice your total testosterone goes over a thousand, your free testosterone goes over 200. And then we can titrate you to the just the right the amount by retesting you after 30 days and usually after one or two iterations. We can get you to make make sure your lab numbers are ideal, but also that you're feeling and functioning your best. So this is really the promise of personalized medicine that you're talking about that will be personalized to every single person. Mhm.

How much do you care about wearable data when working with clients?

Um, I would say in my private practice, I look a little bit more at that at Maximus. Um, I honestly think most wearables are a little bit overhyped. Um,

yeah, I noticed I don't think you're wearing one. You have a nice watch.

Thank you. And it has has no battery or technology. My anti-ag.

Um, yeah. Interesting thing as a psychologist, I think it actually causes anxiety in a lot of people, right? a lot of these sleep wearables um you know because they they look at it and you're like oh my my Whoop score is not 100 now uh I'm going to be sleepd deprived

trend

exactly right

John to John his entire life is just signaling like fake trend

I I got a I got a I got a 98 on aid sleep and I immediately googled like dball plus anavar plus tren plus massive needle this big I want your sleep score is going to go It's about 20.

No, do not do any of this.

But yeah, I mean, look, it can be helpful. We use tracking really when we want to see if an intervention is making a difference. So, a lot of our clients actually when they're using oxytocin because we've published a study showing that it enhances sleep quality, extends sleep by about 25 minutes sleep duration on average.

They'll they'll look at their aura or their whoop scores and then they'll notice an improvements in let's say REM or deep sleep. Um and this is kind of I think you know beyond sort of randomized control trials the top of the evidence-based hierarchy is running really a randomized control trial of one and so you can look at your own data and then if you see you know if you do sort of an ABA test where you don't do the intervention you add oxytocin and then you come off of it and during that period of time that B portion when you were taking the intervention you're clearly sleeping better your sleep duration is better your deep sleep at REM are better it gives you a pretty positive personal indication that this treatment is working for you

you didn't mention across any of those five categories uh like the ADHD meds that I feel like have been popular in Silicon Valley for decades across Rolin, Aderall, Viveance, and Modafanil. There's a few others that people take occasionally. Some of them are prescribed. Um what is your overall thesis on that? That one feels it's always felt like a Fouian bargain, but what's your take?

Exactly. Um, and I think it is, and I'm, especially as a former psychiatry professor, I'm incredibly conservative about things that are psychoactive and specifically work on the neurotransmitters.

Sure. It it doesn't come from a bioarker. It's not like I get a blood test and says, "Oh, yeah, you're low in

there's no Yeah, there's there's no great blood marker for dopamine, for instance." Right. Sure. Okay. Um, and the the diagnosis of ADHD is is problematic. Most people aren't doing a full neuroscychological examination to get a true diagnosis. Yeah,

it's a little over overdiagnosed these days.

One of the questions on the survey was like, did you lose things as a kid? And I was like, who has never lost anything as a child? Like,

everyone loses their sweatshirt when they go to school in the morning and then it gets hot. You take the sweatshirt off, you lose it. Like, this is not like

I never I never did.

You never did. Okay. Well, then felt different.

Yeah. And there's a lot of folks who may have um there's kind of a notion that people outgrow ADHD in adulthood. really what it may be happening is they're learning to behaviorally compensate through routines and patterns. Um but anyway the obviously if you have true clinically diagnosed properly diagnosed ADHD um uh prescription stimulants can be like rolin aderall um the various amphetamines can be life-changing in that um despite their despite the risks and trade-offs obviously if it lets you function and keep a job that cost benefit is going to be beneficial from a performance enhancement perspective. I've been very public in companies like Cerebral. We're doing the wrong thing by shilling aderall on TikTok. We won't prescribe it because it's addictive and we don't uh prescribe things that are addictive because I think to your point it is a fouian bargain. Um and there's significant trade-offs in doing so. So I I didn't mention focus as part of those five. Um I do think there are things

well it feels like your philosophy is that focus comes from the other the other areas if you're balanced everywhere else. Well, in 2019, I popularized dopamine fasting as a behavioral way of improving focus. The main thing that's actually messing with people's focus for the majority of people is not ADHD, but digital distraction. Yeah. Right. So, everyone's distracted by social media, gaming, gambling, shopping.

I I I do a dopamine fast every single day, like at least 6 hours.

Yeah, that's that's fantastic.

Like usually from like 11:00 p.m. to 5:00 a.m.

So, yeah. I mean, you know, you know, in China actually um literally from 11:00 p.m. I think to like 6, right? You cannot act. Uh uh computer game manufacturers are legally

required to take take the server

to do it. And so there there's something there, right? That's like institutionalized dopamine fasting.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting.

Uh how often do you do full blood panels in and and by 2035, how how often do you think the average kind of

American will be doing a blood panel?

Yeah. I mean, assuming right now the average person does it

if they're sick and they they're having an issue, that's starting to change, but what's your protocol now?

Yeah, it's a great question. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't even have a primary care physician. I mean, I think the standard recommendation and one that I will continue to espouse is everyone should get an annual physical every year and have a relationship with a doctor, ideally, you know, a good primary care physician. Unfortunately, because of the health insurance situation that we have that's tied to employers, a lot of people are freelancers. they don't have health insurance or if they do it's like a minimal amount through the open market. Um they don't have that. Um so that's problem number one. Problem number two is the blood test that you get through your primary care is very sparse. So I'll tell you a funny story. So um you know being at OMA and literally being in the diabetes industry, I never had my blood sugar level checked. And when I brought it up with my doctor, they're like, "You're young and healthy. You don't need to check your blood sugar." And I was like, "My dad has type two diabetes. I want to check, you know, and just make sure I don't develop it." But that's the that's the mentality. Similarly, um it's not routine to measure your your testosterone levels or get a hormone panel unless you are like incredibly low energy and symptomatic and your doctor would be concerned. They they don't think it's sort of necessary. And so the unfortunate thing is going through the traditional healthare system because they really want to minimize the cost associated with the panel. You're not going to get a good comprehensive blood test done. Right? So through Maximus, we have a comprehensive test. It costs $199.99. You can get 110 biomarkers measured. True unique biomarkers. There's a couple of companies out there that repeat tests every six months and they're not unique biomarkers. Um, so that will give you an assessment of um, you know, standard CBC, CMP, your lipids, your hormones, your thyroid, all the things that you need to know. And obviously now with AI, you can, you know, throw that into an AI and identify areas that are problematic. And obviously, if you have a clinic or a good PCP that can work with you, it can help optimize it. Like a good example of this is almost everyone is vitamin D deficient because we just don't get enough sunlight. Um, it's the easiest thing to fix. You can take a multivitamin like the building blocks that we produce and we do before and after lab testing so that after a couple months, you can get into an optimal range and it's going to enhance your mood, your sleep, um, 100 different biological functions.

We got to pop the top on this ultra down, let the sun in, get the vitamin D going.

We actually, we actually, we actually want to eventually

get to natural light. It would be so good. We got to make it happen. Pleasure. Anyway, uh, thank you so much for stopping by. Have a great rest of your day and we will talk to you soon. And I will tell everyone about Vanta, automate compliance and security. Vanta is the leading AI trust management platform. And I will tell you also about graphite code review for the age of AI.