Binance founder CZ on his memoir, crypto's future, and why he's come to peace with never knowing who Satoshi is

all the progress and thank you for everything that you do.

I'm sure you'll be back on probably multiple times. We'll talk to you soon at this rate.

Have a good look to it.

Goodbye.

Cheers.

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Up next, we have CZ from Binance. He is the founder and former CEO. He released his book, Freedom of Money, detailing Binance's rise, crypto's evolution, and his legal battle with US regulators. CZ, how are you?

I'm good. I'm good. Thank you. Thank you for

Thank you so much for hopping on. Uh tell us about the book. What was the goal? Is this an attempt to set the record straight or just tell your story? What what what motivated you to write a book at this moment in time? Um I think it's really just to tell my story and then um I was bored for I had nothing to do for a couple years. So I started writing a book when I was in prison.

Okay.

And then uh I just finished when I got when I got out. So um I thought you know it might be interesting story to share and you know let people know what my view is.

Yeah. What do you what do you think people get wrong about your story? Well, I think a lot of traditional media uh have many misconceptions about crypto uh Binance, myself, etc. So, I think there's a lot of uh media that's not accurate about crypto. So, I think this is a very good chance for uh for me to share my perspective

and have people understand crypto better.

What specifically do people get wrong about crypto or you or Binance?

Sure. I mean like from 2013 right people think that bitcoin is only used by drug lords or for illicit activities. The truth is actually uh if you look if you look at percentage wise illicit activities in crypto is actually much much less than in traditional finance. M

um and then by extension a lot of the crypto players a lot of crypto platforms get hit and recently you know there's more attacks about you know um uh just just random attacks on me about how I do business who who I have connections with so I'm a simple tech guy so I just wrote the book you know the the way I wanted to tell it it's a pretty simple language pretty straightforward book

this is a simple guy this is a simple guy

what uh

I think I'm a relatively simple guy

yeah how have you been processing ing the the new regulation that's been proposed uh in the in the United States. What do you think uh needs to change in the crypto industry? Because I I I take your point about uh you know uh the the amount of elicit activity might be lower than in in cash or the traditional financial system, but you know the goal I think for everyone would agree is is to get that to zero. And so what what do you like about the new regulation? What do you think is is reasonable uh to ask for?

Well, I think right now US is making really good progress on crypto regulation. The Genius Act was passing last July, but I think right now there's still quite a lot of debates based on my layman understanding. I'm not an expert. I'm not a lawyer, not a not a regulatory guy,

but um seems like no, there's a lot of debates about uh stable coin interest rates. Um so um I think it's a big important issue, but from my perspective, any clarity is better than none. So and um we will not I think the current iteration of regulations will not get get everything right on the first try right so there'll be some collaboration over time

um so I think it's more important to make progress and move forward yeah

how how are you thinking about the broad tradeoff between uh decentralization anonymity and then uh oversight regul and regulation like uh it feels like we've been moving towards more oversight more regulation more KYC we've heard from some crypto leaders that that can lead to data breaches and other problems. But where do you sit on the level of regulation in the crypto industry broadly?

So I think right now the crypto industry is to be honest is too transparent. It's actually extremely easy to track crypto funds. Um like the blockchain is a public ledger and then if you couple that with a a few centralized exchanges KYC information, you can track most of the transactions pretty accurately. So u I think right now um there's a lack of preserving of privacy but right now the problem is many of the regulators and law enforcement people don't know how to use it yet. Uh some people do I think some of the US law enforcement actually knows it quite well

in other countries they know they know it much less. So hopefully we'll get to a balance where I don't know where the optimum balance is but there should be an optimal balance where you know we satisfy all the regulatory requirements but we also need to protect individual privacy right for example I'll give you a couple examples

please

u for example like if if this company if your company pays everybody in crypto

and if you get one payment today on the blockchain you can just trace to the address that he paid you and see how many addresses that address paid in the last a week can figure you can figure out everybody's salary. Yeah.

Right. So that's a privacy issue. Yeah.

And if you if you stay at a hotel, you pay for the hotel, then people know where you if people know your address and the hotel address, people will know that you're going to stay at that hotel, which for some people may create security issues, right? So there's little problems like those that are not solved yet. Um so we need to we need to strike a balance. Um it's hard to say exactly where the balance is, but I think over time we we'll get there. uh how are you thinking about the interaction between AI and uh crypto generally there's been a lot of excitement even from uh people in AI about uh crypto and the and the intersection but I'm curious if uh what what your overall view is and then uh if uh if it's positive some maybe specific examples of where you you expect to see it manifest first.

Sure. Absolutely. Yeah, I think well uh both AI and blockchain are big recent new big industries. I think there's really three big technologies in my in my adult lifetime, right? There's a AI, there's blockchain, there's internet like it's on those levels. I think a AI AI is going to use crypto for payments for transactions. Um they're not going to use no they cannot KYC through a bank. They cannot do um they cannot do a selfie. They don't have a passport etc. And also u payments in every country is a little bit different

whereas crypto uh blockchain is the same across different countries. So uh one you integrate with a blockchain once it works globally um and it also handles microtransactions large transactions etc. And also crypto is going to increase the amount of transactions significantly. So the traditional payment rails may not be able to handle that. I think blockchain also have a lot of benefit from AI. I think right now a lot of the applications are in blockchain quite difficult to build. Um I think with with AI we can probably build like know safer um safer tools for people to do self-custody and uh safer tools for people to transact. So and I think so uh today the two industries to be honest have not really leverage each other that significantly but I think in the future they will.

How are you thinking about the risk of quantum computing to the cryptocurrency ecosystem broadly? Um I think there's several risk but I think overall though um any technology improvement is always going to be good. More computing power is good for crypto.

So uh quantum may break the existing encryption mech mechanisms but with quantum computing there's probably new well there will be new encryption algorithm there are already quantum approved u uh encryption algorithms that quantum computers do not have an advantage to crack. So we just need to upgrade the protocol to use those encryption mechanisms. Also more computing power with quantum that's probably newer encryption mechanisms we have not even thought about

um that we can use quantum to encrypt and decryption is always going to be much harder.

Sure. What about uh non non quantum hacking uh throughout the crypto boom there's been so many upstart projects. Many of them have been able to get to escape velocity and they're still around today. a lot of them have had to go through hacks and and and adapt. And it feels like with the moment that we're in in terms of AI's effect on cyber security, we could potentially be looking at maybe a bifurcation between the the the projects that have the resources to actually harden themselves against new cyber security threats and those who are maybe smaller upstarts and don't. How do you think that effect plays out? I actually think AI is going to improve security for uh for most projects. Um like um um anthropic cloud, right? So now they're I think if you play like like that, you could potentially discover many flaws at least they claim um in many projects.

But I think projects can also use use their tool uh to fix their security problems. I think a big company like that they already make a lot of money. They don't need to exploit smaller projects to hack to do illegal stuff. So I think right right now with the AI tools that's available the developers can use those tools to find their own problems. So uh but of course if you don't if you don't do that then the hackers may do that for you. Um which is a typical problem in we have today anyway.

So um I think with AI security is actually going to get become better. I don't think it's going to become worse.

So um so I'm pretty comfortable about that.

Do you know who Satoshi Nakamoto is?

Uh no unfortunately I don't. Uh, even if I did, I would have said no, but I honestly don't.

Okay. Do you have have how have you processed that question of who is Satoshi? Have you wrestled with it? Have you done a bunch of research to try and figure it out? Have you had various suspects at various points in time, favorite pet theories, wildcard theories, or has it sort of been a quick ride to sort of process that and then let go of that desire because it's the unsolved mystery? And

this is an interesting point. I should have put this in my book. Maybe maybe the next edition.

But I've come to peace with it. Um I think I'm curious obviously and if there was one person I really want to meet in the world that that would probably be him. But I think there are negative consequences if if we find out who he is,

right? For for example, if I couldn't lie on the oath um if people say look, have you met Tatoshi?

If I say yes, then you know that's going to all hell's going to break loose.

Sure.

I think it's better if we don't know who he is. Yeah. um it's better if he um and without knowing him that uh we don't have a founder centralization.

Yeah.

Right. For example, if you look at Ethereum Vitalics there, right? So there centralization.

What makes Bitcoin unique is that we don't know we the founders no longer participating. He's he may not be around. He may not be participating.

So uh that makes it more decentralized. Um I think that's a good thing and we should come to terms I came to terms ter terms with it quite a while ago. So even though I'm curious, I'm not actively looking. Yeah.

Have you ever thought about doing a anonymous project or do you have a reflection on why we haven't seen more projects effectively run at least to my knowledge the Satoshi playbook of maybe it requires some crazy OPSAC to go anonymous for a couple years. But if it worked for Bitcoin, I would imagine that somebody would have thought, I'm going to do the same thing for this new project with slightly different opinions about how the the the technology is built. I I haven't seen it happen, but what's your what's your take on the idea of a new attempt at a Satoshi like founder in the crypto industry?

I actually really want to see that too. Um I think that's really really cool idea to be honest, but I think also very hard to do. Most projects fail even with the founders heavily promoted. We know who they are etc. Um for a new project without knowing the founder there's less trust in the community. Bitcoin was the first one somehow got you know slow it started very slowly. It took many many years for it to get to where it is today. Um and for a new project to do that it's very very difficult and there there have been anonymous projects that you know that are basically rugps right. So um there also the other side of it people people lose trust with anonymous project. So um to do what Bitcoin did is very very difficult. I would I would actually love to see more anonymous fully decentralized you know projects. But what you mentioned is the OBSAC is also extremely hard.

It's so hard today to not leave any trace both digitally and physically. Right. So um the fact that nobody has really announced who Tatoshi is means that his offse is crazy. Um I don't I think 99.9 nobody else can do it really at this point.

Yeah.

Uh what what do Americans miss about uh crypto adoption globally here? I mean so many at least at least younger generations almost everyone has some exposure to digital assets or some experience buying selling maybe not uh maybe not using it functionally for payments but obviously it's very different uh in other parts of the world with with uh uh you know less um centralized financial institutions. Yeah, I think America for the last few years uh before the Trump administration was you know fairly anti-crypto. So many of the uh funders left uh many of the projects left and many of the liquidity left right there. The biggest crypto exchanges are not in America um today. Uh the biggest blockchains, the biggest stable coin, they're not America based. So I think America misses that liquidity quite a bit. Um, America right now has very forward-looking regulations and now people flocking back. I think the talent pool's coming back, but some of the larger players are not backing America yet. So, I would love to see that changing. Um, I think right now crypto if you if you buy crypto, Americans are probably paying the highest fees in the world. Uh, whereas if you buy anything else, America's usually paying the lowest price. Um, so the uh the cost to American consumers today for accessing crypto is quite high. Um so that's a disadvantage that America has today. But uh America has a large economy, a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of VCs and good liquidity in traditional markets. I think um and u uh I think America has definitely has the um ability to catch up very quickly.

Uh you were born in China. How are you thinking about geopolitical relations between the US and China? Tensions seem to have been rising for years. There's trade tensions. There's all sorts of geopolitical tensions. Is there any hope for deescalation between the two countries?

Um, I'm not an expert on the geopolitics of between different countries and also um my label understanding is both countries have leaders with pretty big personalities. Yeah.

So they're very hard to predict. Um I think the um the uh President Xi in China is easier to predict than President Trump. President Trump is like a wild card, right? Which is which which is in which is in his advantage. um you can't predict what what he's going to do and u but I do think both both countries are large countries now with leaders who are smart and who are business driven they want the economy to grow so if that's the goal then there are certain then I'm optimistic that you know there's certain outcome to be reached

between two countries there's usually a fairly large zone of overlap that you can reach deals uh right now it's just the personalities and also both countries are quite proud so they they're all hard negotiators

the negotiations at that level takes time Yeah.

Um, so, uh, but I I am, uh, I'm fairly I'm fairly optimistic that, you know, both the two countries will work hard something that's beneficial for both.

Uh, you've written the book. What's next for you? What do you think the next decade looks like?

Um, I'm actually not too sure exactly. Um, so I'm doing like a few different things right now. Um, I'm running investment fund. Uh, well, I'm not really running it, but like know I support it.

Um, I do some mentoring in the space for new entrepreneurs. Um, I run a u uh a free education platform, a Google Academy um that provides free education to 240,000 kids now. Um, and we've only been at it for like a year and a half.

Um, and then um I also um yeah, so and then I also advise different governments on crypto policies. So between those four things that keep that keep me pretty busy, the book was actually a huge distraction for me. I can imagine

it took a lot of time. It takes a lot of time to write a book.

Um but I'm glad know it's it's out there. Um, and there's an audio version coming out soon. And then after that, I'll put that I'll put that on pause. Uh, just let it be for a while and then figure out what to do. Yeah.

What was the strategy for the audiobook version? Did you narrate it yourself? Hire a human narrator, use AI?

So, um, um, one of my friend Michael Santos is going to narrate it. Okay. So, um, um, um, he we had this sort of agreement verbally from a long time ago. And also Amazon doesn't allow AI um uh uh generated voices.

Interesting.

Yet I didn't know that.

Um so you'll be a human read uh or audible. Um and then uh I've been playing with AI quite a bit myself.

The AI cloning of of voice is I can't tell the difference from my own voice. Yeah. Um it's and it's just better. It reads more smoothly.

Um it's better than my own reading. So in certain uh we on certain other platforms or in certain other countries we may use an AI generated voice that clones my voice to to try to read it. Uh I haven't finished that yet. Um there are still little quirks here and there. Some sometimes AI make very obvious mistakes. Um you know you it pronounces Chinese names wrong which I would not make that mistake.

Uh you pronounce this sometimes you will say like when I write $400 you say $400. Um, so I would not make that mistake, but 99% of the time he actually reads better than me. So, um, we'll see. Uh, so I might do two different audio versions. U still playing around with it.

Yeah.

I wonder after Jasse's letter today if he's still going to be anti anti- AI voices.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, I did have a one last question. I'm curious. How how did you process the prediction market boom over the last two years? there had been, you know, long people had long had predictions that uh prediction markets uh would intersect with with crypto and and be really big. And yet there was attempts in the 2010s that didn't really reach uh critical mass. Um so I'm curious, you know, how you process that that that entire period.

Yeah. So I think I today I do think prediction markets has a huge potential and it's already pretty big like the the top players are pretty big already and there's like hundreds of thousands of upcoming platforms as well and also if you look at the regulatory landscape um the CFTC chairman uh Michael Silic he talks about prediction markets multiple times I every time I watch him talk he seems to mention prediction markets so it seems like the regulators and the um traditional markets also moving in so um And as you said there have been many attempts previously but then timing is important. Um some ideas you know even even though the ideas are very obvious if you implement them too early they don't get traction you have to implement the right idea at the right time. I don't know what all the ingredients are for predition markets but somehow now seems to be the right time. The previous attempts struggled um and now it seems to be taking off. So I'm a big proponent for for anything that's new and interesting and I think prediction markets are very interesting. They're the price discovery and truth discovery. They're kind of using price to discovery truth, right? So u which is actually a very which is usually the reverse for what we do. We like information drives trading volumes. So that that so that's a very interesting dynamic. Um I think uh and also um uh the easy labs the fund I I'm involved with uh we invest in multiple prediction markets. So, we'll see which ones work, but I do think that it's a huge potential and it's it's hot. Yeah. And it works.

Are you How are you thinking about any of the previous crypto booms or narratives or themes uh coming back? Things like NFTTS or crypto gaming? Are you optimistic on any projects, Dows that uh had their moment in the sun and and didn't quite re release uh reach escape velocity? Do you think anything will have a second wind in the near future?

I do think so. I think um many things will have a second wind, but the second wind will most likely be a little bit different, right? There'll be something that's, you know, um like even prediction markets today, they're different from the sort of prediction markets four, five years ago.

Um so every iteration there will be some tweak. Um and it's usually that little tweak that makes it a little bit different and maybe the micro environment. So I do think that some of the things that you know that were there like I think Dows will not disappear. Mhm. I think Dows haven't really took off to be honest. You know, the concept being there for years. It's like you know in the 19 even in the 2010s video streaming doesn't really work right like know this type of even today this this type of call sometimes internet doesn't work sometimes the microphone doesn't work right. So uh uh you know we get into those situations a lot. So um a lot of things take a lot of time to mature. So I think the Dows the NF NFTs um uh again I don't the next iteration may be slightly different but you may still be called NFTs or NF2 it may be a different name um but I think um tokenizing art is probably going to come back at some point multiple times.

I don't know when it will really hit big and stay NFTTS I think honestly we saw we saw like a we saw we saw a rise and then and and then a downward trend.

Yeah. So, um, it's hard to say, but I think all of those things eventually will should be much bigger than they were today.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come chat with us. Uh, congratulations.

Congrats on the launch.

I recommend everyone go check it out and hear uh CZ's side of the story. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Talk to you soon. Goodbye. Uh, there's some lore on the timeline. Bluetooth is