Rick Caruso on LA real estate, feng shui, leaving LA City for Nashville and Florida, and why he won't raise outside capital

It's bad at that.

It's still bad at that even on Pro. So more work to be done. Jobs not finished. But we have our next guest, Rick Caruso, live with us in the TDP Ultradome. Welcome to the show, Rick. Please take a seat. And I just want to say thank you so much. Pleasure.

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

And uh speak with us. How is your 2026 going so far?

It's going well. Thank you for asking. Yeah.

Yeah.

Very good. Family's good.

Yes.

Business is good. So I have no complaints.

What What is on the top of your mind for this year, next year? What are your biggest goals?

Are you talking about from a business standpoint?

I'm talking about from an everything standoint. From an zoom out and and I want to know 360. What does what does a great next year look like for you?

A great next year starts out with a lot of happiness and health with the family first and foremost. That's all I care about.

Always.

Yeah. And we just became grandparents. So that's Congratulations. I know. It's really Yeah. It's really a great thing. That's amazing.

Oh, the place goes wild.

The place has to go wild.

Place goes wild over Luca. Luka Caruso.

Luca.

Yeah, Luca. Good Italian name.

I love it.

And on the business front, yeah, we are pushing really hard. Okay. And growing. We've got um two projects already under construction. One in Calabasas. We're expanding the Commons at Calabasas,

residential tower, and more retail.

Yep.

And uh we bought uh I can't say where yet because we haven't completely announced it yet, but we bought a golf course and a club.

Cool.

And that's under construction and we're expanding our club business

and we're going to start in

generally in California, LA. Yeah.

But I just spent a lot of time as maybe you see on my social media. I was in Nashville, we were in Austin,

we were down in Florida this last week and uh making a big push to be developing outside the state.

What does pushing look like for you in the real estate context? Does it mean going broader on the fundraising side, on the prospecting side, uh evaluating more properties, hiring more staff to evaluate more potential projects?

Good questions. So, we're a little bit unique. Um everything that we do we've done on our own balance sheet. Yeah. So we're not out raising funds.

Yeah.

And we've continued to grow on our own balance sheet. So when we're looking at pushing, there's really multiple levels because we're fully integrated as a company.

Yeah.

So we not only design and build our projects in house. Um and we bring in outside contractors and outside architects, but we oversee it all in house.

We operate all of our properties in house. And so we are just like a dog on a bone in terms of pushing our operating profits, generating more cash flow, and at the same time elevating the guest experience, which at all costs can never be sacrificed.

And then at the same time, we're putting new projects in the pipeline.

And we're very disciplined about how we do that, what our returns look like.

So that that's the big push. And we want properties that are irreplaceable, that are in high barriers of entry. And we want properties in cities and states that actually respect and want our investment. And we think our investment is safe. And since it's, you know, our own capital, my own capital, we're very careful about how we invest it, but we can make decisions very quickly because we don't have a lot of committees to go through.

Have you ever had doubts about that model? We don't see a lot of venture capital firms in the tech industry that we see some very high GP commits. Yeah.

We don't see very many firms that have no outside LPS at all.

Jane Street in high frequency is notorious for also not having uh LPs. Um have you have you ever considered it or has it been the model works don't? I think it creates a better I feel like it ultimately the the client the customer wins because if you're spending your own money on something like the experience has to be fantastic.

Yeah.

Well, I think that's right. I mean I think that's right. There's a couple things there. So when I started the company about 40 years ago, I would have never been able to raise money and do what I wanted to do.

Okay. So it just wasn't an option. Well, it it if I would have if you know, even more recently, if I would have said to you or anybody else, I'm going to go build a hotel up in

Monoscto

on the beach

and it's going to be a five-star hotel and um but I got one small problem here. We got a train that runs through the property. I don't know if you've been up to Myar.

I was there. I stayed I stayed there this weekend.

Okay, I'm going

I go there. I go there. I go there all the time. You'll laugh at this. I'm in I'm in Malibu, but when my wife and I want to get away, uh it was our wedding anniversary. We love going to the Rosewood, which is so funny cuz I'm like I'm literally on like living on the beach in Malibu and I'm like I need to get away for a weekend.

Go straight to the beach.

Pretty good. You're you're in rare air.

No, but the but the the funny the funny thing is um my mom my mom's side of the family is from Orange County. So I I have like a a love for the Surfliner, right? That runs through that runs through Orange County, too. So when I'm at the Rosewood, it feels like I'm at home.

Yeah.

And I and I would tell you that uh before the hotel was built, just describing that rightfully so, you'd say you're crazy. You can't you just can't put a five-star hotel with a train running through the property six, seven times a day.

So you know, the question is, can you take pieces of real estate and do something really special? We have a rule in the company also that every piece of real estate's got some kind of issue. So you can either isolate that issue or you could celebrate that issue. I can't isolate a train. So I better figure out how to celebrate the train and make the train an amenity to the to the property. And I say that just I could have never fundrai my right now. Maybe now I could. And we're actually looking at a model that would allow because we get a lot of requests to from firms to joint venture with us and whatnot. So, we're starting to look at that model and I think maybe we could do that now because even if I said to somebody, okay, I'm going to go build the Grove. I'm going to turn my back on the street. I'm going to create my own street and then we're going to have this trolley going up and down and actually the trolley goes nowhere,

but it's going to be really cool. They would have said, "No, the trolley is gone. We're not paying for the trolley.

If you didn't have the trolley at the Grove, the Grove

with trains."

I love it.

I know. I know. in my childhood.

I know a lot of guys a lot of guys are

Okay, speaking of your childhood, speaking of starting out in a point where no one would finance these projects, did you have a mentor or did you have a sort of a historical legend that you look to the way a value investor might look to a Warren Buffett or a technologist might look to Steve Jobs? Did you have someone that you were identifying with or learning from in the early days?

I had my dad.

Yeah,

my dad was my best friend and certainly a mentor. He started his own business. He was an entrepreneur.

Yeah.

And um he was a great adviser. He was the one that literally drove to my house. We spoke every night after work. We never worked together.

Um but um after I announced that I was buying the Myar, he literally drove to my house that night saying, "You are you've lost your mind now, you know." Um which I actually just

What was the state of the of of uh of Myiar when you bought it? Was it

it was it there was a lot of the old buildings were still there and pretty decrepit all

but it wasn't an it wasn't

No, it was not an operating property. It stopped operating for about 15 years. I mean

it was just falling it was just falling apart.

Falling apart. We were the third buyers uh into it and I I bought it from Ty Warner who tried to get it developed and couldn't.

Yeah.

And then Ty bought it from I'm blanking on the name that has

Ty Warner of Studio 54.

Yeah.

Wow. And who who had Studio 54 um in New York? I know I'm dating you.

I I I'm I'm familiar with Studio 54.

He bought it before Tai and they couldn't get it developed. So we were the third group into it

from the original family. But

but I listen I I think curiosity is one of the most important things in business.

And so I study a lot of people. I study a lot of companies. I've done it my whole career. I think meeting people in your industry or outside of your industry

is really critically important. And I cold call people and I'll say, "Do you mind having a cup of coffee? I have zero agenda. I just want to understand how you think, what you do, how you became successful." And I learn a lot from that. I think it's a it's a constant learning arc that I'm involved in. So, if you're if you don't need to worry about or or deal with wrangling outside investors for a new project, who are the stakeholders that you're trying to build a constituency with to make sure that a project goes flawlessly or has the best possible outcome? Because there's retail shops, there's employees, there's there's the local community. How do you think about them uh and and making sure that everyone is aligned throughout the process?

Well, first and foremost, it's the guest experience. M

So we have a guest experience and then we have a customer experience. The guest experience is you guys coming by with your families.

Sure.

Shopping, staying with us, whatever.

The customer experience is our customers, Nordstrom, Alo, Apple, whoever we're doing business with.

We have to be really great landlords and deliver great value to them. And we want to make sure we're taking care of their customers really well.

And then we think about our employees. We want to have an environment where people are excited to work. We work hard. There's a lot of intensity at our office because we tend to be perfectionists and we're trying to constantly reinvent the curve on these properties and so I want to take care of my employees. I have an incredible team of people. Um and then you know it's our my family because I want this company to be dynastic. I want it to live long after I live and hand it down to the family. So I think about all of those people, but every day that all of us wake up, we are literally thinking about the guest experience and how we continue to elevate that and make it something really special.

On that guest experience, I heard a conspiracy theory

that I want you to address.

I can't wait to hear it.

I heard a conspiracy theory that uh the guest experience is so so important that 90% of the people that you see at the Grove are paid actors. everyone you're sitting next to on the train, the person that's looking at the fountain excited, the not just not the people in the Apple store, not the people serving you food, but the people walking around and and on certain days I might be the only real normal guest. Is there anything to that? Could be. Could be. I don't know. Could be. I'd hate to have that payroll.

That does sound like a thousand extra

18 million people coming through the Grove. That's a hell of a payroll. 18 million people come through. Wow.

Okay. Your dad thinks you're crazy when you when you buy Myar. At what point does he call you and say, "I think you might be on to something."

Well, you know, Pop was Pop the the greatest gift that he gave me was permission not to go into his company. He was in the car business and I know he wanted me to be in the car business with him in the worst way. But I think that's one of the greatest gifts your parents can give you is to say, "All right, go do what you want to do." You know, the you're good at and passionate about.

He never lived long enough. He died when he was in his 90s. He never lived long enough to see the completed product.

Um, but I know that pop would be very proud of it. You know, he he didn't understand the grove at first. It's like, what are you doing? And, you know, why are you doing it that way?

But he was always super supportive. But I think the conversations we had every night, it was not only a father and a son, it was a father and a son who were both in business. And him challenging me was like really important

because I didn't grow up in the real estate business. I had no background in the real estate business. So, it's not like I came out of this industry or from an industry and I knew what all the rules were. I actually believe very strongly that one of the reasons we've been successful is I didn't know the rules. And so I didn't know I was breaking a lot of rules. I didn't know I had to build a a property with a roof and no sunlight and no windows and no no landscaping and and make you feel like you're walking through a prison.

That is the default.

That right. If I would have grown up in the mall industry, that's what I would have built.

Yep. Totally.

So, but it was great having him challenge me with many, many people challenging me along the way, including communities that we serve. That goes to the other priority of people we're thinking about. We're very very protective and supportive of the communities we're in whether it's Monaceto or LA or Calabasas and it's they're good.

Has any have any data center developers called you and said how do you do it? Like what's your what's your playbook? Because uh in the you know data centers are ugly. They don't employ a lot of people. They're probably a harder cell than a lot of the developments that

that you've done. But you certainly have faced a lot of opposition over time, but got people around and got them aligned and and ultimately created spaces that I think make make the uh whatever area they're in better.

Thank you. Well, a data center doesn't need to worry about any of that. I mean, they need to get their permits, and I know there's a lot of push against data centers now.

Yeah.

Um but they don't have a guest experience to worry about other than they're doing what they're intended to do. So, no, they've never reached out to you. Don't you maybe they should because if they were less eyes, they might be they might face less.

They could. That's true. There's nothing. Listen,

I'm a big believer. It's always good to make things really really nice and attractive.

Yeah.

And we spend a lot of time and a lot of money making things nice and attractive and it it always has worked to our benefit.

Is fune a valuable

100% everything is funed.

Explain that. How did you how did you get into fune? We got into it because I started studying it a little bit. And in fact, when you take a look at the Grove, um, our adviser in Funue, Katherine, uh, does every one of our properties, she reviews all of our plans before a property is built. She is on the property before we open, blessing it, and all the things that need to be done.

And it's respectful of a culture that we care about as a guest.

Um, but it also makes a lot of sense from a development standpoint. So the way the railroad at the Grove goes and how it moves and turns was very important not to intersect or get too close to the fountain

because that's bad funue.

It would be cutting off a lifeline.

Yep.

The number that's on the trolley uh was funue. Now it ends up being which most people don't know.

I had

it ends up being my birthday. There's all these things in all of our properties. So the number for the trolley is 1759 being January 7th 59

and

which I wanted to use but we had to make sure it was properly

funued. Interesting.

Did did you did you have any projects early on that didn't work that you now attribute to to to poor funue? I don't think he can talk about it, but I know that he passed on something.

But but but yeah, because I because I think everyone whether or not they've even read about fune, believe in it, all these things, everyone has been in a space and being like, there's nothing objectively wrong with this apartment or store or hotel, but it just it's just bad.

Doesn't feel right.

Doesn't feel right. And and I I've had, you know, a house, you know, a home where I never use like one or two rooms and for some reason

you got to funue your current office. Your back is to the door. That's a crime.

Yeah. That's not good. That's

Oh, that's true. No, seriously.

But you can there's counter measures.

Yeah,

you can use countermeasures.

Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah.

I I think that funue is important along with a million other things are important.

Yeah. when we are so focused on making that guest feel comfortable in the space and that's why we go around the country and we go around the world actually studying spaces. We'll look at retail centers, we'll look at malls, we'll look at ones that work and we'll look at ones that don't work. But mostly what we're doing is we're studying streets. And so when you go to the Grove or you go to the Americana, whatever, the height of that curb, the slope in that street, how the railroad is sitting there, the fact that there's gutters and there's drains and there's all these things, they're there because your eye picks it up.

If we would have built the Grove as a flat plaza without curbs and gutters, you wouldn't read it in your mind as a street. So the rhythm of the trees, the rhythm of the street lights, we study all of that stuff.

Interesting. And we actually had a landscape architect on the grove that threatened to quit because he wasn't going to design curbs and gutters. He said, 'People are going to trip. I said, 'People don't trip walking around the cities. Why are they going to trip here?

And then he finally came around. But we studied um the grove is patterned very much in scale um down in Charleston. We studied Charleston

uh in terms of building depths and and whatnot, but all of that's really important. Uh, how how did you experience the dot era? Were there people telling you that retail was going to be over? It was all just you may as well shut down now. The internet is going to be everything because we have a lot of people in our, you know, in the technology industry that are building uh building products that are either, you know, that benefit from AI or are threatened by AI or or totally unknown yet. So, a lot of people are going through an existential crisis. How did you did you ever did you ever doubt? Did you ever believe in uh in the more out there internet pitches that you were getting or were you always confident?

I was always confident. I tell you why. And may maybe it's because I'm naive.

And I'm not right. I'm not trying to be arrogant about it either.

No, but it's a good philosophy.

But but here here's why. If if you looked at it through my lens,

why did I go in the retail business? I was never in the development business. So why did I go in the retail business? Well, I went in the retail business because I loved people and I loved real estate. So where am I where am I going to do something where I could marry people and real estate? And I started in the U warehouse business

and that was just hugely boring to me because I could care less at the end of the day about dock high loading and clear spans and there were no people there. It was just a bunch of trucks.

Interesting. So, I got into retail because as a young kid visiting family in Italy, I was always taken by the piazas and at the end of the afternoon, the sun's going down a little bit. The people are coming out, the kids are running around, somebody's having a glass of wine, there's a little music in the back. Very, very, my family came from a very poor, very modest town. Didn't matter. There was this joy of life. I wanted to duplicate that. That that to me is my psychic income.

Is this

you're like the internet's not going to do this thing that

it can't copy it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And from the beginning of time, what have we done as human beings? We've gathered. We went around a fire,

right? We protected each other.

Yeah.

Right. We're just human beings are that way. So the last thing I would say is there's always been multiple ways to buy a product.

There was the Sears catalog long before there was the internet.

Right. And so nobody buys just with one channel.

And the best retailers, I want them to have a really robust online uh uh operation because that means they're a better retailer. So it it doesn't scare me at all. And our business has grown. Our keer is 18%.

So I I'm not I'm not too worried about I don't know what was that noise.

That's a hairorn%. Fantastic. Um uh you what what's been your thought process? You've you've uh have such an incredible presence in California, such an incredible track record. You've made so many of our communities like better spaces. I I I feel um I I don't live in the Palisades, but I would go to uh the Palisades um you know, your your your property there at least once or probably twice a week on average, just passing through. And when after the fires it felt like like some part of our community was just gone. Um and uh what what has been your I imagine people from all over the US have tried to entice you to bring this kind of scale to their states.

Mhm.

What has been when have you when have you indulged in those conversations? You you mentioned earlier in the conversation uh exploring more opportunities outside of the state. What has been the the thought process? Was there early like a loyalty to California? That was seems like it was your

I'm a big believer, it's a great question. I'm a big believer that if you want to create generational wealth in real estate, it gets done because you know the area incredibly well and you're local. And when you take a look and I'll give you an example. If you look at the Palisades, so many people said the Palisades is never going to work. There's not enough people there. People would even say they don't go out at night. It's a bedroom community. just not the case that the the the there was nothing to go out to. Right. And the case study for the Palisades because I live in Brentwood Park and if you live on that side of the 405, you cannot literally travel east after about 3:00. It is bumper to bumper

to get over the 405.

So you have this enormous population that's bulcanized

that can travel west easily.

Yeah. to dinner and the movies and shopping including the other side of the 405 Bair home hills they can travel. So to me it was understanding that dynamic of how the mobility of people

almost like the funue of the city.

Well funue but also just the actuality of the mobility of how people moved.

Yeah.

So I've I've always wanted to stay local because that local knowledge is critically important. And if you look at the most successful businesses in real estate in any category, it's usually local families.

And you get that from a feel, not from data. I assume

you get it from a field. You get it from learned

information. Yeah. You're stuck in bumper to bunker traffic. You know, you don't need to.

I drove my kids to school every morning and I know at 8:00 in the morning, you can barely go. And if you want to go pick them up at 3, you need an hour to get to the 405.

Yep. So that that I think is super important. What we would do is if we go outside the state, and we're going to go outside the state for a number of reasons, we would just make sure that we have a lot of really local talent.

Sure.

Surrounding us to

to backfill Yeah.

that that kind of knowledge that we're going to need.

Uh why are you going out of the state then? What are the reasons?

Well, California and Los Angeles are very difficult to invest in anymore. Um especially LA City. We have not built anything new in LA city since the Palisades

very intentionally uh because it's too overregulated, too expensive, too unpredictable. Um and and frankly, you know, we spend an enormous amount of money on our properties on security

because the city, you know, has struggled with having enough police

and we're very adamant on having a very safe, secure environment on our properties.

So, I want to move our capital. I I hate leaving LA. But I want our capital to go into places that I know is going to grow and be safe. Now, I don't have to leave California to do that.

That's why we're investing in Calabasas. Sure.

It's a great community.

Yeah.

We'd love to do more in Glendale. Incredibly good community, safe schools, clean streets, safe streets.

Those are the kind of things we're looking for. Um, but there's also great growth happening in like Nashville. I was by How many year how many years do you feel like you kind of raised your hand with the the local government and said, "Hey, these things aren't aren't working. Uh we need to make changes because like because this wasn't something that overnight you were like, "Oh, this this city doesn't feel safe anymore. I'm going to move out of state or I'm going to move out of I'm going to move up uh to a different county."

You know, listen, a lot of years and I worked for three mayors. I had the benefit of working for Tom Bradley when I was in my 20s as a commissioner. I worked for Dick Reirden uh as a commissioner. I worked for Jim Han uh as the head of the police commission. So, I understand the city. So, I worked for the city for 17 years while I was growing my business. So, I understand it well. I understand what was working and I understand what's failing. And so much of what we're doing now is just failing because we have leaders that frankly aren't qualified and they're incompetent. And they're not bad people. They just don't know what they're doing. And if you look at other cities, it blows my mind on how well they're doing. There's no reason that LA shouldn't be doing well. It's only not doing well because our leadership isn't making smart aren't making smart decisions

and we're paying the price for it.

Jordy, follow up there. Uh,

are you gonna run for president? Ask that.

It says here you're here to announce your

right yeah comment.

Yeah. Right. Right. How about that for breaking?

Uh, what other what other but um uh

but I don't want to be, you know, let me add before I interrupt you. I I'm a very optimistic person and I love this city.

Yeah.

And I believe in the city. We're not moving out of the city. We're not doing anything like that. And I think this city will get back to where it should be in terms of being the most productive city in the country. It just has to.

Yeah.

And it and it will eventually with the right leaders.

I was opt I was optimistic during your during your campaign.

Well, I tried.

I've heard Yeah. Yeah. I've heard a lot of uh a lot of, you know, negative takes on LA and things that are going right and I'm and I just keep coming back to like the waves crash on time and the sun shines on time and so Los Angeles will be great for a very long time and the rest of the things are solable.

Well, I I think I think the be because of the natural environment, it it sort of enabled some poor government.

You get a lot of shots on gold. There's always new people.

You do get you do get more shots on gold. But but you do have

a net decrease of population.

That's what's going on right now. Yeah.

Yeah. So unfortunately

just like you know I remind people if we operated the grove

and it was dirty, there were encampments, it felt unsafe,

people vote very quickly with their feet.

Yeah.

No different in cities.

Sure.

And so there is a tipping point that people are going to say, you know what, I know the weather's great. I know the views are great. Blah blah blah. But my quality of life now or the quality of life for my children

have gotten to a point that it's not worth it anymore.

Sure. I mean, we should never get to that edge.

We both have, you know, continue to make this decision. We work we work here in Hollywood, but we are families are not are not in the city. We both moved out of the city and I would love to I would love to uh buy a home in the city someday, but there's a bunch of things that would have to change. What uh what cities and states do you think have um the best uh sort of business environment right now? What's what's appealing? Because I'm sure I'm ass sure there's places that

uh would would love to have your business and would offer a number of incentives to try to bring them out there, but then I'm sure there's places that are just already great and and you want to set up shop.

Well, we've spent time, like I said, we spent time last week in Nashville. I was very impressed. I met with the mayor of Nashville. Very impressed with him. There's a lot going on there. Yeah.

And businesses moving there, but the streets are clean.

You know, the environment was great and people are happy. You can feel the energy along the streets.

So, it was terrific. Um Austin was the same way. We're focused on Austin. Um last week or Yeah, it was last week. We've been moving around a lot. We just covered a big chunk of the state of Florida from Palm Beach to Coconut Grove. Um lot of interesting opportunities. Coconut Grove is a very cool city down there. Um, so we're looking in a lot of places, but I would also say in California, like our property in Monaceto, I I think that region of Santa Barbara is managed very well. Y

and we're doing another project up there. We're expanding the retail up at the hotel. We're starting that at the end of this year. We're investing a lot of money in workforce housing for our own employees actually on the property so our employees can live there. Um, and Calabasas is a good example. We're putting in another 130 million. That was a property that I built 30 years ago. It's effectively that downtown, but it's an incredibly well-run city. Uh, good schools, good neighborhoods, and it's safe and clean. And same with Glendale. I mean, Glendale is a phenomenal city.

Um, and we want to invest more in Glendale. So, you don't have to go far. Culver City's done a hell of a job. I mean, look at the what's boomed in Culver City with the offices that have gone there. places that

Yeah. I was shocked at at the office uh lease lease prices in Culver.

Like look at Century City. It's part of LA.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's the part of LA because it's sort of this contained bubble.

Yep.

That's clean, safe. There's there's a lot of emphasis by the ownership there versus downtown.

Basically the same office product. And the office product downtown because of the homeless problem and the crime, you have a 40% vacancy rate. Wow.

You go to Century City, you have the highest rent probably in the United States outside of New York City.

Oh wow.

So that just tells you what people are looking for.

What do you think it takes to make it in real estate in 2026? If you're an upandcomer,

I I think the opportunities are huge. Um, you know, you mentioned AI. I would tell you I think anybody coming into whatever industry today coming out of college the opportunities are now endless because the world is on a pivot

and it's going to be a little bit inefficient

and in inefficiencies are the greatest opportunities and because there's so much uncertainty how AI is going to impact different industries that's the best time to be leaning into it

and then finding out How if you want to be in real estate, how AI is going to create a better guest experience, how it's going to create lower cost of building, how it's going to create lower cost of operating, designing. I mean, we do things now in our company through AI would have never thought we could do.

Yeah.

Uh a year or two years ago. And my one of my biggest frustrations is I'm constantly pushing the team, what more can we do in AI? Are we adopting everything we should be adopting?

Yeah.

And so I think it's just jumping in. Jump in. Get in it. Take any job you can. Uh is what I tell people coming out of college. Work really hard. Don't necessarily do what you're just passionate about. That's great. Do what you think you're really good at.

And if you're really good at something and it marries up with passion, then that's unstoppable. And then you just keep going. We'll close with a challenge for everyone listening. Use AI to funue your home office wherever you work. There you go. Take a picture of it. Upload it to chat GBT. Tell it redesign this proper fun. I think it'll work. I think we're close.

That's brilliant.

AI might be able to reposition your

desk next generation. The way you marry those

I actually got into fune like two or three years ago. Redid my whole office. It was so much more relaxing. I I'm a true true believer.

But you married one of the oldest Yeah.

cultural science

with the cutting edge science. It's very cool.

Yeah, it can take time to get up to speed.

Should have a horn.

Thank you so much for coming on the show. We will wrap up here. Leave us five stars on Apple Podcast and Spotify. Sign up for our newsletter at tbp.com and we will see you tomorrow. Goodbye.

Cheers.