Shira Lazar on the creator economy: middle-class creators are being squeezed as brands chase mega-names and niche experts

Speaker 6: Hi, man. Good to see you.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Wish we had more time yesterday.

Speaker 6: Alright. Anytime.

Speaker 2: Our next guest is already in the waiting room. We have Shira Lazar from What's Trending. She's the co founder and host of What's Trending, and we'll bring her in to the TBPN UltraDome in just a minute. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?

Speaker 1: What's going on?

Speaker 3: Good. We're just diving in. I love it.

Speaker 2: Yes. Of course. That is the nature of the show. We dive right in. Why don't we dive right in with an introduction on yourself? How are you introducing yourself these days? How what can you tell us about the shape of what's trending the platform?

Speaker 16: Yeah. So I've been in the digital media Sorry. Think there's a delay. But I've been in the digital media creator economy space for almost two decades. I'm aging myself. We started What's Trending, actually, was a live streaming show in 2011 in the last few weeks.

Speaker 2: Cool.

Speaker 16: So, we were playing around with this tech and these tools way back. One of the first to livestream in a really high quality way. But, you know, the space in some ways wasn't ready. It was us, the Young Turks at the time. Al Jazeera was doing a livestream, and we had a weekly show. We went daily actually with YouTube.

Speaker 2: No way.

Speaker 16: Oh, shoot. Am I like What? Oh, is it I I look like I'm paused right now, but I don't know if that's

Speaker 4: We can

Speaker 2: hear you. We can hear and see you just fine.

Speaker 16: Okay. I'll continue. Welcome to tech. And then in future, stop by your studio. But, yeah, then we went daily with YouTube Yeah. And then it seemed like live just the platforms and the audience weren't ready yet. Mhmm. And then we went more into on demand

Speaker 9: Mhmm.

Speaker 16: Grew more as a digital media brand and publisher, and that's who we are today. And we cover news, views, and culture for the social generation. And now, oddly enough, like seeing your success and what you're doing

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 16: Starting to rethink like do we maybe go back to that? Who knows?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Timing timing is so important. Mean, there's been, like Jason Kalakanis had TBPN effectively back, I don't know, the first year that he did it.

Speaker 2: 2007 maybe?

Speaker 1: Like very, very early. Same same kind of era Yeah. When you started. But, yeah, people need to be ready for it.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I'm interested to hear about what is changing right now, what you are tracking. I was reading a piece in the journal about sort of a k shaped dynamic that's emerging with brands only want to partner with the biggest celebrities, the biggest podcast, and there's sort of a winner take all market. Are you seeing that? Or is there a way for sort of middle class of creators to emerge these days?

Speaker 16: Yeah. That's really interesting. I actually think there there's two extremes of opportunities. I think that definitely people that have skilled audience and those big names that are the the new wave of celebrity are definitely getting the deals as long as there's I would say conversions. Yeah. And they have that fandom audience. They are the new names that a lot of brands want to partner with. And of course, these streaming services, or the podcast. Like to really have a successful, I would say at scale podcast or platform, you need to have, you know, that audience, that big name. However, that doesn't mean that's the only way to succeed. Mhmm. Right? So we're seeing, as you might know, a lot of smaller creators that have niche audiences.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 16: The b to b creators now that are becoming big. The LinkedIn creators. Yeah. The knowledge creators. Yeah. And they've hunkered down on a very specific audience, and they're seeing high conversions even though they don't have a skilled audience.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 16: And so that creates a lot of success too, where they could have, you know, or be making half 1,000,000 to 1,000,000 a year possibly. They're relying on brands, They're maybe having courses. They're maybe having, you know, paid events, etcetera. So what I think is really interesting right now is we are at a time that there could be opportunity for big names, but also not such household names. Yeah. But again, it's really about understanding your why as a brand and what you're trying to go after.

Speaker 2: Now, do you like the term Nimsel? Niche internet micro celebrity? That's been a one that's been

Speaker 1: I've never. Never heard that.

Speaker 16: I don't know. Sounds like too much like an incel. Yeah.

Speaker 2: It is a weird knockoff. But I I I think it does capture something that is real, which is that in there might be someone who is incredibly influential in a particular sub vertical or industry and and they might be a household name gets stopped for autographs at that industry's conference but never at a random Starbucks. Right? And so this is just an interesting who who is it? It was Colin Samir we were talking with and they said that Yeah. Something like 80 to 90% of the next generation, maybe Gen Alpha, is a super fan of someone that no one in their high school has heard of. So they all have individual relationships with some someone that they're a super fan of but they don't cross over. It's not everyone likes Tom Cruise, it's everyone likes their own individual unique Tom Cruise or whatever. Yeah.

Speaker 16: I was talking about that with someone actually recently because it it creates I think again so much possibility, but then it's harder to figure out like if you can just find one name that everyone knows that will have that popularity. Again, like in the past, there were how many cable channels? Or even before cable, you know, TV channels, cable channels, and then shows that you watch, you know. We're we're such a fragmented audience right now.

Speaker 15: Yeah.

Speaker 16: And so there could be someone that is so popular, and you might have never heard about them. That's like the beauty of social media and the internet right now. And actually, know, you were mentioning the middle class. I do think there's something about the middle class that is difficult right now when it comes to the creator economy. Mhmm. Because I see people when they're at the 1% making a ton of money. I mean, not everyone is Mr. Beast. Right? And then niche creators are making a lot of money. When you're kind of stuck in that gray area, that's becoming, I would say, more and more of a challenge because you're getting underpriced, but then also, you know, the prices that you want, they're not necessarily being able to hit it because they're keeping that for like more of that macro creator.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the other the other challenge is that there's gonna be new creators that are growing that are growing quickly that are that are that are hungry that maybe have figured out formats so the algorithms are rewarding Yep. More intensely. And if you're in that middle zone and you don't adapt quickly, you can quickly become irrelevant. I used to Yeah. I used to talk to YouTube creators that would try to this was back in 2018, that would try to set pricing based on the number of their the number of their subscribers Yeah. Because there was a period where you could basically say, like, I have this many subscribers. Like, you can assume that at least half of them will, click through and and and watch the video. There was a moment like that, and then it changed pretty rapidly Views. And I would I would talk to them and be like, hey, like unfortunately, like

Speaker 2: Average views. You can't Over the

Speaker 1: last couple of Take your last 10 videos Yep. And take the the average and like that

Speaker 2: For some creators, that's higher than their subscriber base. But for a lot of creators, it's 20% of their subscribers.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Lot lower.

Speaker 16: It's actually putting the videos. But then, you know, I think pricing is really important to talk about because, you know, I do think there's different types of creators that require different things. Like, you know, now there's a lot of the affiliate creators. And I liken that to like a QVC host, right? Yep. They're really good at selling through and having that affiliate model, and that's the only way they work, and they're really good at that. I don't think that's for everyone. And just because something works in the creator economy for a group of people doesn't mean it needs to be the end all be all.

Speaker 14: Do not

Speaker 2: tell that to Gary Vaynerchuk. If you get him going about TikTok shop, it's over for you. He will That's a lot of

Speaker 16: game like

Speaker 2: He loves it.

Speaker 16: Not everyone is meant to be a TikTok shop.

Speaker 2: Agree. I agree with you completely. And

Speaker 16: then where's the wait. On that note, and I love Gary. Where's Gary V's TikTok shop? I want to see him like, okay. So TikTok shop is hot. What are you selling? I wanna see you selling which he does these moments where he'll be selling or he'll go live for a week or week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're doing this again. Why am I live on TV? And, like, okay. By week two or three, he's like, okay. Have other shit to do.

Speaker 2: Yeah. No. No. A 100%. I mean, I he he he does he I I think part of his benefit is that he's he's sampled from the smorgasbord of content creation and can speak to, okay. Well, there there is a gap here for some people, but not it's not all gonna be one size fits all. Just like I don't think everyone's going to be you know doing IRL streaming in the future even though that's having a moment and we could see many more creators do IRL streams outside of the kick streamers and the controversial folks and the political folks. You could see that instantiated in a whole bunch of other categories but it'll just take time to get there. We've been seeing with TBPN. People have made a version of this show for car dealerships or what's going on in Europe or what's going on in crypto and there's all these different twists on this format and that happens whenever there's a new thing but it's not gonna be perfect for every single vertical. But yeah.

Speaker 16: Exactly. And that's what they'll jump on it because it's a trend and there's a difference between the people that jump onto something and then build it as actually like a substantial career.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 16: So for instance, like I like to say, I'm like I'm looking at a career. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Like

Speaker 16: I'm here in the digital space. It's something I'm very passionate about. And now, on my personal brand, I cover creator economy trends, emerging tech, AI, even mental health. We could get into that Mhmm. When it comes to the digital space. But I've been now working in this space for twenty years. I get to look at trends and how they've changed and not just report on them, but I've actually lived through them. So it gives it a different, approach at least for me and an edge when it comes to my coverage. I also think just sidebar, if you're a creator or someone looking to be in the space, like, I do believe as long as you get the right representation, agents or managers are important, as long as they don't take advantage. There's a lot of predatory behavior out there.

Speaker 6: Mhmm.

Speaker 16: Because they have other talent, they could see How

Speaker 12: much should you share with a

Speaker 1: manager, like 90%? Or or or would they want will they want more? No. I'm kidding.

Speaker 16: No. No. Usually agents, and I'm gonna say this, someone said don't talk about this. I was on a panel at the NAB show last week, and someone's like, are you revealing? And I'm like, these aren't secrets. These are kind of industry standards, and we needed talk about things more, and not cut people off from information. Like, I am not Mhmm. I do not wanna be that person.

Speaker 17: Mhmm.

Speaker 16: So, yeah. So agents typically take 10%, managers 20%. Mhmm. But again, this day and age, managers people are just becoming salespeople, and they're saying they're managers Mhmm. Which is crazy. Whereas in the past, a manager would actually build your strategy, and help you with your career, and like your longevity. Now, just run your email inbox, and like that is not a manager. But anyway, that's just my hot take on that. But Well said. I think things are, you know, things are changing. What?

Speaker 2: Yeah. No. No. No. I like it. It's a good point. And I think it is important for these to for the yeah. Just the benchmarks or any sort of relative information getting out there is always good. Jordy, anything else?

Speaker 1: What's your outlook on clipping? It feels like the legacy media don't

Speaker 16: ask that.

Speaker 1: It feels like the legacy media just just woke up to this.

Speaker 2: Well, it just started. The first clip I think went out like last week and so that's why everyone's talking about it.

Speaker 16: The first clip from a a legacy media company?

Speaker 1: No. No. We're we're joking. No.

Speaker 2: It's week. It's been around for years and it's now like having this big moment. It's just sort of funny to reflect on this thing that everyone's been aware of for a long time.

Speaker 16: Yeah. So I I it's interesting because I think when you Google even clipping and I was trying to find the platform that does it. There's like two sides of clipping. It's like the you're clipping up all your clips obviously and distributing them

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 16: At scale across everywhere. And then there's the clipping farms like where they'll you can pay people to post on their platforms and try to get views.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 16: Those are kind of two sides

Speaker 2: The clipping industrial complex.

Speaker 16: Yeah. And I find that fascinating. Like a lot of streamers are doing that.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 16: I show speed and

Speaker 2: Well, for a long

Speaker 16: that's time somehow

Speaker 2: Rogan would be clipped, but just by people that were watching the show and were like this was

Speaker 16: an Organic. Interesting Organic.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Authentic. Farm to table clipping. Now you got the industrialization of clipping and so thousands of people are being paid to clip a single streamer and it's part of a marketing process. But it seems to be effective for people, so it is becoming a trend and people are paying attention.

Speaker 16: And that how like is it clavicular?

Speaker 2: Clavicular has been a massive beneficiary of the clip industrial complex. Apparently, he has a 100 people working

Speaker 6: for him.

Speaker 1: Yeah. But it's interesting because people like analyze his whole strategy

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: And they put like they seemingly put like eighty ninety percent of the of the of the success Yep. And the growth Yep. Of his personal brand whether you believe it should grow or not

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 1: On the strategy Yep. When he was a unique figure

Speaker 2: And a controversial figure. A And if you if he had been saying there just, yeah, a little bit of sleep, diet, exercise, don't worry about it too much you're going to be fine and he had a billion clippers no one would know his name. Instead he's out there with the craziest hot takes possible, the craziest stunts He's

Speaker 1: saying that he's doing math.

Speaker 2: In jail and stuff like insane stuff and and so the clips really amplify that but there's a seed of virality there already on day one whether or not the clippers are paid or not I think.

Speaker 16: Yeah. No. That that is the thing. So I think it's interesting as a new marketing strategy that it'll be interesting to see if traditional media jumps on board. I don't think they will because they have a hard enough time building out their social strategy right now, let alone doing a whole like, I would say clipping strategy like that. I think that definitely benefits the individual personal brand, the person that's willing to take the risk. Again, there's still money that you need to spend on this, but if you want to become a social media celebrity one, yeah, you need to have the basic, I would say controversial hot take Yeah. And then being able to tap into this other stuff. But it's something to look out for in terms of the phenomenon of social media right now, and putting more out there. Right? And how do you do it faster? But then some of these, I would say I use Opus for instance. I know the team there. They're great if you have long form video and you want to cut it Yeah. But some of these tools, they do need to be better. It's like you can't just throw it in and spit it out.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 9: There's

Speaker 1: still Yeah. We tried a number of the tools early on and couldn't get Yeah. Any of them working. We ended up building our own internal software.

Speaker 2: Which which helps with the the cutting of the footage but does not do the selection for you. The selection is still editorial. That's still human, which is interesting.

Speaker 16: Exactly.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 16: So you know a lot of creators are still worried about or anyone about AI taking their job, or this or that. Yeah. Which is real, which is why I think that you need to lean into like having a voice and an approach to things where you're not just being told what to do, but you can take a piece of content as an editor and be like, I'm gonna make this the best it can be like better than AI right now. I'm personally excited for when I could throw a clip in and it could spit it out for me and be awesome. Yeah. We are not there yet. It would save me so much time. So as a creator, I'm excited for these tools. I am not

Speaker 2: Clip super intelligence. It's gotta happen. It's gotta happen. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. Have a great rest

Speaker 1: of your Yeah. To meet you. Come back on whenever you have. I I love all the spice. Come back whenever. The spice.

Speaker 16: Oh, I will be back. Maybe I'll be in studio. It's easier and I want to Fantastic. This tech. I'm just being a freeze frame right

Speaker 14: now.

Speaker 16: All good. Thank you.

Speaker 2: Appreciate it. You came through

Speaker 12: loud and clear.

Speaker 1: Great to hang.