Joanna Stern left the Wall Street Journal to build an independent media business — her book 'I Am Not a Robot' is the flywheel

Speaker 2: It's core of the market somehow. I wouldn't be surprised. Anyway, we have our next guest, Joanna Stern, author of I am not a robot live with us in the TBPN Ultra Dome. Let's bring her into the studio. Welcome to the show. Will you be enjoying a Diet Coke? Yes. Escort me No. No. Cameras want cameras. Grab a seat. You're welcome

Speaker 5: What's happening?

Speaker 2: To have a sit down. How are you doing?

Speaker 8: It's real.

Speaker 2: It's real. Today, official book launch day is today the day. Last week. Okay.

Speaker 8: Last week.

Speaker 2: But the tour continues. Right?

Speaker 8: This is the West Coast tour. This is my first stop on the West

Speaker 2: Coast tour. LA. We're having a conversation tonight then Yep. Up to San Francisco.

Speaker 8: Up to San Francisco, Mountain View.

Speaker 2: International? Fates yet?

Speaker 8: June is when it goes international,

Speaker 2: so

Speaker 8: we'll find out.

Speaker 2: They'll have me. The the bot replies come to Brazil. Come to Brazil. Come to Brazil. It's a very popular thing.

Speaker 8: Haven't knew

Speaker 2: about this. Right?

Speaker 8: I do know about that. But I think They're like huge

Speaker 2: fans, the fandoms.

Speaker 8: I think London.

Speaker 2: London would be great.

Speaker 8: London? Yes, I Well

Speaker 2: Alright. How are you introducing yourself these days?

Speaker 8: I know you guys had me as author. Author? Author. I think founder. Is a founder popular name.

Speaker 2: Founders. Correct?

Speaker 1: I think I I prefer business owner

Speaker 8: Okay.

Speaker 1: Or businesswoman. Yeah. Think founder is already sort of fading.

Speaker 2: Oh, okay.

Speaker 1: We hit peak founder.

Speaker 2: Oh, okay.

Speaker 1: Because because Yeah. Being anybody can be a founder but not everyone can be a businesswoman or a businessman.

Speaker 8: Was at LinkedIn last week and they said that they're seeing a big uptick in people putting founder in their profiles.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And Angel and Duster too became very trendy.

Speaker 1: It's over.

Speaker 2: It's over.

Speaker 8: It's surprising at

Speaker 1: LinkedIn. Put You business owner. Because you're selling subscriptions, you're selling books.

Speaker 2: Ads.

Speaker 1: You have sales. Ads.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Alright. Business

Speaker 2: the shape of the the media empire that you're building. Obviously, there's a book. That's a great way. Was this intentional to time up the launch of I don't if

Speaker 8: that's a great way.

Speaker 2: I I think it makes so much sense.

Speaker 8: It's a good marketing vehicle,

Speaker 2: Yeah. I Yeah.

Speaker 8: Yeah. I mean, that's why I'm here, right? And so I can come on and I can I thought through a lot of that when I when I decided to leave the journal

Speaker 2: Yeah?

Speaker 8: I thought, okay, I've got this book coming out, I've got to get out right away

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Because I've got to start building this business so it's ready when the book is ready. And I probably should have, you know

Speaker 2: I think there's like a one plus one equals three thing here where you have video content that feeds into Substack subscriptions that feeds into books purchases and then someone hears about the book. Maybe they read even if they just read a review of the book, maybe they wind up going and subscribing the Substack. And so having that sort of 360 degree view

Speaker 8: It's a flywheel.

Speaker 2: It's a flywheel.

Speaker 8: It's It's the it's the value of that flywheel here. We need flywheel. Flywheel?

Speaker 2: Don't know what a flywheel looks like. Is that a water wheel?

Speaker 8: I think it's

Speaker 2: What is a flywheel?

Speaker 8: Well, if you the Amazon flywheel is like a

Speaker 2: I'm familiar with the metaphorical flywheel.

Speaker 8: It but

Speaker 1: heavy rotating mechanical device used to store rotational kinetic energy, so we're gonna need some proper machinery.

Speaker 8: Okay. We can get that made.

Speaker 2: And we

Speaker 8: can get a

Speaker 2: It's specifically not a windmill?

Speaker 8: No. I I think Okay. In my mind, it does look like a windmill.

Speaker 2: Okay. I think so. This is funny.

Speaker 8: Okay. Can we get one of those here?

Speaker 2: We definitely

Speaker 8: return to the studio. Yeah. Look at all these people, they already went out and started to get the flywheel. Yeah. They're already. Yeah. Is a

Speaker 2: flywheel flywheel creation. Yeah. Anyway, what was the flywheel for writing this book?

Speaker 8: You know, it wasn't the motivation for writing the book was not actually really a business reason at first. I mean, a little bit in the sense

Speaker 1: of Now it is. Now it is. Sales are rolling in.

Speaker 8: Now it's but as you know, I wrote a popular column for the Wall Street Journal for a long time, twelve years. Yeah. My biggest you know, one of the reasons I didn't want to

Speaker 9: leave Success.

Speaker 8: I thought you guys might not read me anymore. Because I know you read the Wall Street Journal. Love the Wall Street Journal.

Speaker 2: And we love your coverage.

Speaker 8: So I have been considering just making a newspaper of just my newsletters Yeah. And sending it to you guys.

Speaker 1: But Yeah. That is something that every writer discovers when they leave a big platform is like, were people reading me for who I am or were they reading me and care about what I was saying because it was in the context of the platform that you're a part of. And and I think for you it's certainly

Speaker 2: You had way more of a personal brand.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. You had a personal brand.

Speaker 2: With the video

Speaker 8: means like you guys won't pick that up and be like, oh yeah, Joanna wrote about robots today. Let's have her on the show.

Speaker 2: Well, print edition of the newsletter.

Speaker 8: I know. Printed but so just to kinda Yeah. I I've been writing this column for a really long time and I was realizing so much of the AI columns had a theme to it. Sure. And I was testing all of this AI stuff from hardware and gadgets to the chatbots and the models to then I started getting really into robotics and said, okay, what if I put this together in more of a cohesive story? Because when you're writing these, even whether it's newsletters or columns, getting the theme and like big picture is very hard to do. Some newsletter writers are really great at it. Ben Thompson is great at it. And if you can really get your readers to go deep on something in a newsletter that you're amazing, but I don't know if I had that reader base, we'll find out. And so I felt like in the book I could get really deep into this and so the concept was for the year, in 2025, I was going to live my entire life with as much AI in my life as possible. And that was generative AI, but that was also self driving cars, and that was gonna be medical AI, and that was also gonna be humanoid robots, but it really just turned into robots.

Speaker 1: And describe your headspace going into that year. Are you, you know

Speaker 8: Insane.

Speaker 1: Print print are you reading situational awareness like at night, you know, before bed, like are you AGI pilled, are you are you skeptical?

Speaker 8: I guess I'm skeptical, but I'm thinking more we have all of these tech executives out there and this is 2024, just all the hyperbole in the world, right? AI is going to change everything, it's going to change the way we eat and educate ourselves and healthcare and we're going to live forever, all of these bold promises that I sort of wanted to explain to the normal person what are they talking about?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: How is life going to be different, better or worse with AI? Mhmm. Which is kind of a perfect moment for this book to come out right now because we have a lot of people thinking it's going to be worse and they might not be wrong. And then we have a lot of people also saying this is going be great. And so I think it's a pretty balanced look at all of these different things. But yeah, I mean my headspace was just I want to what's real? I want to find out what's real here.

Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah. What was so back to the flywheel. What was the actual flywheel of writing the book? Was it test something, write about it, take notes, write about it, or do a ton of research and experiences, and then in a fugue state churn out the entire book in a couple of sleepless nights?

Speaker 8: It was a mix of both. So I try the book is structured seasonally. Yeah. So every season I try to figure out a theme, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: So like the book starts in winter, beginning of the year and I'm very focused on health and so Yeah. I wrote that or I've lived that and then wrote that, and then started realizing, oh crap, this stuff is moving so quickly. Yeah. And so I started realizing, okay, probably should have some of these journal entries in the book. I also wanted to make it very bite sized book because I don't think people just sit and read a whole long book anymore. And so I started fitting things in like that and realizing I got to tell the story of how the progress is being made so quickly every single week right now. So it was a mix. I AI did not write the book.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: I think it's very me. The writing is very me, but AI definitely helped make the book in so many ways. Yeah. It would not have been done by now if I did not have AI.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Just the back end systems I used to organize my notes and all of the timelines and the thing getting like things like the end notes done. All these little things AI did for sure.

Speaker 1: Have you seen the the chart of Amazon Kindle releases post ChatGPT? So basically after the release of ChatGPT, you just see this massive uptick in book releases on Amazon.

Speaker 2: A 100,000 a month prior to AI. Now it's up to 400,000.

Speaker 1: And and the funny thing the funny thing is people people are everyone is just saying like, oh, people are obviously just like prompt, you know, making just prompting out a prompt and prompt the whole book. But what you're saying is like there's actually just like a speed up

Speaker 2: what's driving that 300,000.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I some of them some of them certainly are.

Speaker 8: Well And I

Speaker 1: think a lot of You have the perfect book to be able to like say like of course I used AI to in the process because it's like why would anyone trust anything else in the book if you were just going say like all this stuff is completely

Speaker 8: Hand

Speaker 1: know, fake and Yeah.

Speaker 8: One thing that's interesting and I do these generative AI experiments every season where I try to just one seasons I just listen to AI music, or one seasons I just read AI books. Yeah. And so I read a few AI generated books off Amazon. Sure. They're not terrible, guys. Yes. I mean, I hate saying it, but they're really not terrible. It's like

Speaker 1: Is this fiction, non fiction?

Speaker 8: It was fiction. Yeah. It was fiction, and I got in touch with one of the authors, quote unquote, and it's funny because it relates back to the chapter on radiology, and the premise of his book, it's called Variant, and it's about how AI has taken over all radiology, we don't have radiologists anymore, which I'm very clear in my chapter on radiology, that's just not gonna happen. And the AI has decided it's not gonna spot cancer anymore, and a human figures out that the AI has gone rogue, and so it's like an it's a novel, a thriller about this.

Speaker 1: How interesting.

Speaker 6: Is it

Speaker 8: really good story?

Speaker 1: AI writing an AI Exactly.

Speaker 8: I mean

Speaker 2: Seems like it would be

Speaker 8: I got in touch with the author and he said, I think it's only like 3,000 words that you can actually get

Speaker 2: At a time.

Speaker 8: At a time. So he had to keep prompting every chapter.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: So that was basically all

Speaker 2: he Yeah. You need some sort of harness to Yeah. Work through. You can open the diet code by

Speaker 8: the way. I know. I'm worried

Speaker 2: about this I'll I'll burn some

Speaker 8: I want it I keep wanting fit in.

Speaker 2: Yeah, please. That's why I'm

Speaker 8: doing this.

Speaker 2: On on the medical question, I'm I'm so fascinated by the way AI is diffusing in medicine because like we do have, you know, tools that can help radiologists. And yet I can't name a company that's gone out and built Salesforce for radiologists and done very well. And then you'll see remarkable, like, PhD level work being done with some of the models, but then I'll go to the doctor and have to fill out, a paper form. And I'm like, we're not even seeing a fast takeoff in, SaaS adoption at many at many, you know, medical offices. And so there's this odd nature of, like, the capabilities, the capability overhang, and I'm wondering if that came up in your in your interrogation of the medical questions in particular.

Speaker 8: Well, I'm forgetting the name of the company. It's not my chart. Yeah. It's one of the companies that is doing the AI note taking in medical I right mean, there's a number of them. Yeah. That seems to be the biggest catch on right now. And it's I mean, would consider it in whatever back ends, they just get this tool now.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And have you been to a doctor where they ask you can they record?

Speaker 2: I haven't actually. But I did see a company that sells a wearable device for doctors that's doing hundreds of millions Yeah. Dollars in sales and has been very successful in rolling that out. Interesting. But

Speaker 1: Such a magical and useful feature. I can I can just remember trying to like understand like doctors Yeah? Every time. Even if it's just like a medication like Yeah. Get this at CVS and it's like, you get to CVS and you're like, sorry, buddy.

Speaker 8: Gotta So nobody knows what it's

Speaker 2: I mean, that feels like the hardest one to measure because if you have a whole bunch of notes, ideally, you're catching something, oh, this person had three different symptoms. We should screen them. You screen them. You save their life or something. That's like the best case. That's a lot less satisfying than the AI got so good that we asked it to cure cancer. It did. And now there's a pill. And whenever somebody gives gets cancer, we give them the pill and everyone cheers. And they're like, AI, it was worth it. All those data centers, it was worth That's what everyone wants.

Speaker 8: That's what

Speaker 2: everyone We're probably getting like, the average doctor can see seven patients instead of six and they make 5% less mistakes and you don't really feel it day to day.

Speaker 8: Well, I go and interview Bill Gates about this. And he kind of comes at it in from two perspectives. There's going to be that, the every doctor is going to have this AI assistant and every patient is going to have this AI assistant Yeah. Which we're already seeing inroads in, right? OpenAI and Microsoft have all started rolling out ways to use their bots and you feed in medical information. But then there's going be the other side where AI is externally doing drug discovery or cancer cure or or whatever it is. And so the promise is on both ends. I think the one that people are starting to see already though, I mean it was in the pit. Do you watch The Pit?

Speaker 2: The Pit? I've seen one episode. It was sort of gory.

Speaker 8: Yeah. It's very it was was very

Speaker 2: like not really for me. They No. It's very successful.

Speaker 8: It's very successful. And the doctor there's like one example of the doctors now using AI to summarize their notes. And so I think that's the one that most consumers have now Oh, my doctor's gonna ask me if they can use AI to summarize my notes. And they're probably not they're not gonna think that that is

Speaker 2: That's weird. Yeah.

Speaker 8: Weird or consequential. Yeah. But they're gonna have some amazing breakthrough because their doctor is

Speaker 2: did have a weird experience where I went to the pharmacy once to pick up some drug and I had some follow on question about like how does interacting And with some food or I noticed that the pharmacist was asking an AI model, but I also noticed that the pharmacist was not using a thinking model. And I was very disheartened by that because I was like, I I could use a pro model, probably get a better answer here.

Speaker 8: But were they using like some

Speaker 2: They were using either either like, you know, the Gemini overview Okay. Which is not Gemini thinking.

Speaker 8: But it wasn't like some price. Very

Speaker 2: No. No. No. No.

Speaker 8: Farm and lawn.

Speaker 2: Just going to Google and searching for some

Speaker 8: Oh, boy.

Speaker 2: And I was like, wait. But I have, you know, o three pro or whatever the flagship model at the time was, I was like, I we should be using the vest.

Speaker 8: We should be using the best CVS

Speaker 2: or wherever they work. Yeah. These things take time to diffuse, and they have cost if it's an expensive model, but I don't know.

Speaker 8: True. Interesting. Well, I think I think the health care chapter, I I like talking about it because I think it really does point to the positives of where this is going to, this can go. And even with the radiology example, which is pretty outdated honestly by now, it's outdated in the sense that Geoffrey Hinton has been saying for years radiologists are going to be replaced by AI and deep learning, but that didn't happen. We can talk about it from the economics and the job standpoint, but we can also talk about it from this is actually an amazing change. It can spot cancers that humans can't, and it's out there. Women might be getting their mammograms or breast ultrasounds read right now, and they might not know that AI is doing that So for this idea that, hey, we need to reject AI, we need to reject AI, well you might actually have AI doing things in your life right now that are actually quite good and it's very nuanced.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. There's something about like AI on the back end gets no credit, but if you see some slop image, you know,

Speaker 4: like Right.

Speaker 2: It's really annoying or some fake news, you're like, ah, this AI stuff sucks. You don't notice that deeper in the supply chain, some problem was caught before you could even know. That's tricky. I wonder how that can filter through to actually good

Speaker 8: Marketing, I guess. Better.

Speaker 2: I don't know. Think it takes time. I don't know. Yeah. Talk about companionship. Like, why did you think that one was important to to center in on? How what was your process for setting that up?

Speaker 8: I I think so. Well, I did a few things in companionship. Yeah. One, I did a lot of experiments with AI therapists. Okay. And one particular called Ash was my AI therapist. And I still talk to Ash sometimes. Okay. And then I did a chapter and a real experiment in in my summer love with a with an AI boyfriend.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Speaker 8: And I did Fling. Fling. Yeah. I've ghosted him since.

Speaker 1: Brutal.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Churned. Churned. And

Speaker 1: That's a risk for you, by the way.

Speaker 8: Which part?

Speaker 1: Because in the in in some AI doom scenarios, the AI might hold that against

Speaker 2: Oh, true. Rocco's Basilisk, you should continue to send affectionate messages to all AIs. Because if it becomes all powerful, it will

Speaker 8: I have a section of the book where I talk about that I cursed at AI and I felt really bad. Yeah. And I, like, really went after it for making mistakes. But then I go to a manners expert or an etiquette expert and ask if that's okay.

Speaker 2: Okay. What was the conclusion?

Speaker 8: He said the AI doesn't have feelings, so you don't need to to do this, but it depends on your I would love to.

Speaker 1: I would love I mean, they're so easy to smokes smoke. We should have them on the show to talk to our managers. Because simply, like, you don't wanna be somebody who

Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

Speaker 1: Part of your life, you're just screaming That's right. Yelling, using cuss words Negative.

Speaker 2: And then

Speaker 1: you just go back to your life, and you're like, oh, yeah. I'm I'm a super respectful person. It's like you're putting out a bunch negative

Speaker 8: energy That's exactly what he said. It's basically you need to realize how that might affect you as a person when you interact with humans.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: Yeah. So the more you you might start beating up on and just completely berating your AI, but then what happens when you start to blur the like, those lines blur, and how does it affect you as a human? Yeah. Like, and one of the idea funny, right when I just got dropped off by my Waymo, I didn't do it this Waymo trip, but this morning, I kind of forgot that the Waymo driver wasn't a human. Like I just was like not paying you you kind of just because I don't have Waymos in New York.

Speaker 1: Oh, I'm the

Speaker 8: No. I just I said thank you when I got out.

Speaker 2: Sure.

Speaker 8: You know? And I was like, oh, right. Like, you know, but I was thanking the robot.

Speaker 2: Well, they do have teleop. So, like Yeah. There's probably someone who might have heard that because they might be. They might have And they shed a tear.

Speaker 1: They shed a tear because every other drive that day, no one said thank you.

Speaker 2: It's sort of like a Groeninger's cat.

Speaker 8: I think that that makes up for the fact that I ghosted my AI boyfriend. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Being There's a kept and so I think that's

Speaker 1: As long as it all is flowing through the same day of time.

Speaker 2: Human for every two Waymo's. So there's a 50% chance that thank you was received by a human, 50% chance that it was not received by a human, but you will never know. So it's the floating

Speaker 8: But the human didn't do the driving today. No. So it really was thanking the robot. Don't think so.

Speaker 2: You were spanked by yeah. Yeah. That's fair. Anyway Yeah.

Speaker 1: But the human might have stepped in in a really key moment.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It's possible.

Speaker 8: That's true.

Speaker 2: Could have saved you. You don't know.

Speaker 8: You kinda know. You kinda

Speaker 1: know. Yeah. You probably

Speaker 8: know. Okay. Sorry. We're talking about companionship. We got Wait.

Speaker 1: How is how is Waymo how is what it like, how how did you did you feel Waymo's progression over the last year?

Speaker 8: I feel like yeah.

Speaker 1: Driving around LA, I mean, I still see Waymo's making some pretty heinous calls out on the road. I had a Waymo, it was like a two lane two lane road. Yeah. Waymo trying to there was wall to wall traffic going the other way. The Waymo's trying to just like turn in. It's not a there's no u definitely no u turns. And the Waymo's like, I'm going. So it's like, we're fully backed up this way. Everyone's honking. The Waymo's just like waiting to like do an illegal u-turn. It's like, there's someone in it. They're just like, oh.

Speaker 2: Oh, boy. The name of the business, tell everyone.

Speaker 8: It's companionship is the name of the business. No. The name of the business called The New Things.

Speaker 2: The New Things.

Speaker 8: Thenewthings.com.

Speaker 2: The New Things.

Speaker 8: Please go. Please go visit thenewthings. We talked about

Speaker 2: the new withthings. A landing page that had a different domain? Yes. My next thing?

Speaker 8: Yeah. This is my next

Speaker 2: thing. This is my next thing? I

Speaker 8: like that. I I couldn't I I didn't know the business name

Speaker 2: yet. Yeah.

Speaker 8: But this the new things.

Speaker 2: The new things. Okay.

Speaker 1: Did you talk to any people that had that at least claimed to never have used AI?

Speaker 2: Interesting.

Speaker 1: Because you really can't claim that at this point because you would have to just like sit in a forest.

Speaker 2: I didn't say you've never met an Amish.

Speaker 1: You'd have to sit in a forest then somebody would be like

Speaker 2: The Amish are growing. Well The population collapse is vastly

Speaker 1: issue though. Like probably the forestry service is like probably using AI in some ways.

Speaker 2: And that affects the Amish?

Speaker 1: No no no. I'm talking about my example of somebody who's like, I don't use AI.

Speaker 2: Yeah. My counter example was the Amish. And I think if you talk to an Amish person, they would say no. I have been AI free.

Speaker 1: I know. But they're buying wood from a business

Speaker 8: has a real need. Tell

Speaker 1: you that you have to. Somebody can't be like, well, I don't I don't use electricity but they're buying goods and services that require electricity.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 8: True.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 8: I didn't do that. Though I think that's actually a good story to do now. Yeah. Go and ask people if they think they're living an AI free life but

Speaker 2: they're not. They're flourishing. Yeah. Fertility rates are particularly high amongst the Amish.

Speaker 8: Really?

Speaker 2: There's a big deep dive in the in the Financial Times

Speaker 8: And there's

Speaker 2: this weekend around smartphones being like

Speaker 8: I saw

Speaker 2: inflection point. Right? We can get into that later. But but the Amish have stayed away and they are flourishing.

Speaker 1: Do they chop their own wood?

Speaker 2: I believe many times they will.

Speaker 8: Wait. But are the Amish flourishing because they don't have smartphones or has their birth rate stayed steady?

Speaker 1: No. I think it's probably

Speaker 2: accelerating. Yeah. For yeah. It's actually a straight line on a log graph with the Amish.

Speaker 8: It's a hockey stick.

Speaker 2: Yes. By by in a few years, they will be producing thousands of offspring Interesting. Per Amish person. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Talk about

Speaker 8: Is this the worst tangent you've

Speaker 2: ever had here? Maybe.

Speaker 1: No. Definitely not. This is yeah. Talk about more you mentioned like you're feeling like progress as you're writing the book. So you're trying to like get a section out of the way and then realizing like the story is not quite the story is like still evolving. Yeah. What what was that like? How are you feeling that progress? Because it's not like it's been very obvious if you're a software engineer just being like, wow, I'm I have a lot more capabilities today than I did three months ago or six months ago. But how are you feeling it?

Speaker 8: Well, even some of that software engineer, the tools, right? Like Claude Code mid year, last year, I believe comes out, gets so much better towards the 2025.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Or even the advent of AI browsers, which we can say now is really just going to be any browser, but like Chrome for instance has gotten so many features over the last year that are just so much more AI enhanced. One example for me was Perplexity Comet came out mid last year and was like, wow, I can really live this agentic life that people I have been talking about, can have it do multi step processes for me in my browser.

Speaker 1: Did you book a flight?

Speaker 8: I didn't I think I did try to book a flight, and I couldn't do it at the beginning of the year, but I could do it by the end of the year. And I did try, and I I mean there's multiple things I did in Perplexity Comet last year that I still will open it from time to time, but I'm using so much more now of Claude in Chrome that I don't need Perplexity Comet. Yeah. I mean everything from food shopping to school supply shopping, I use it a lot for shopping because even though it takes a while to use, you're like, I'm not doing it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: You trust it with your credit card?

Speaker 8: It still basically will ask for your credit card. I mean, don't have anything set up where it's like auto pay, but I had like I did specifically I've used Walmart or Amazon and at that final point it will say like, I need your confirmation to purchase. Look at the shopping cart.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Works pretty well. Pass you the link and

Speaker 4: then

Speaker 2: you can check out there naturally.

Speaker 8: But on that progress, there was obviously also so much progress and still is so much progress happening in the models and but I was less worried about the model progression and much more about the interface and the UI progression of whether it was wearables, how we're interacting with this through hardware or through software. So was it the was it improvements to apps? Was it improvements to a Claude code or a vibe coding app or to a browser where people could actually interact with this stuff. Yeah. Which I think we'll, you know, see We're starting to see obviously more of that through OpenAI and more of that through Google probably this week too at Bubble. Yeah.

Speaker 1: How how do you rate the tech industry's current terminology? Do you like do you think that you calling data centers AI factories is a good move? People love factories.

Speaker 8: Probably not. I don't Who's been saying that is a good move?

Speaker 1: A lot of people have been using the word AI factories because it sounds cool if you're, you know, investing in the

Speaker 8: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: We've been pushing for supercomputers.

Speaker 8: I don't think normal people like data centers or AI factories.

Speaker 1: But supercomputers

Speaker 8: That sounds better.

Speaker 1: Sounds better.

Speaker 8: That sounds better.

Speaker 1: Sounds like a big computer. Less scary. Yeah.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I haven't I haven't been able to listen to the show today. But have you guys been talking about the commencement booing?

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Incredible.

Speaker 8: I watched a little bit on the way here. I didn't hear that. But yeah.

Speaker 2: Like, I mean, maybe it was just the Supercut we watched, but the Eric Schmidt, it felt like he was getting booed the entire I know.

Speaker 8: I'd like to see the whole thing.

Speaker 2: And I feel like if you're getting booed, you need to read the room and just sort of go off script and ad lib and just take it in a different direction because there's plenty of inspirational things that he could talk about. But he was really seemed like he was really doubling down. I need to watch the full the full commencement

Speaker 1: Yeah. It would have been so it would have been so easy to say like when I started my company Google

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Everyone was worried that the Internet would lead to massive job loss and all this change in the economy. And what happened? We did get a lot of change. But

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Speaker 1: There were so many good things that came out of it. Right? Did you

Speaker 2: just tell a story of y two k? Like he lived through this. Right? Well Like Google, it would existed before y two k. I'm sure that

Speaker 8: I see that I mean, you guys have probably been talking about your timelines and everything today, but I feel like there's this at least on x, there's two takes on this. One, it's Eric Schmidt and and nobody wanted to hear from Eric Schmidt at that

Speaker 2: At

Speaker 8: A. Room ever. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is just the fact that he is Eric Schmidt and that he shouldn't have been

Speaker 2: Just because he's a billionaire or

Speaker 8: Just because he's a billionaire, he's tied to Google and he's writing about and talking about how AI is everything. Yeah. And then there's the opposite the second point which is it's actually a backlash to AI and people hate AI. I think probably

Speaker 2: Interesting.

Speaker 8: A van der you know, probably somewhere in the middle of

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: It's both. Because then there was the speech at US UCF last week. Okay. Did you see that one?

Speaker 2: I don't think I saw that one. No.

Speaker 8: Yeah. So there's a I forget her name, she's a real estate Oh. Real estate Yeah. Executive. And she also gave a speech and when she's talked about AI being Yeah.

Speaker 2: Part of

Speaker 8: like the next industrial revolution

Speaker 2: Sure. They booed.

Speaker 1: For sure.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: They didn't boo her the whole time.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: So my argument which I made on X which is no, this is definitely a backlash to AI because we've now seen two examples.

Speaker 9: Did you

Speaker 2: see David Solomons? No. So CEO of Goldman Sachs just going so much harder than than Eric Schmidt. Eric Schmidt's, like, at least trying to, like, paint an optimistic view. David Solomon just plays an EDM song generated by Suno for the Wharton grads who I were probably more receptive to it because you know They're going into business. I I think it might have

Speaker 1: been Did say I made this in ten seconds?

Speaker 2: Yes. He did. And he said like creativity is no longer relevant and like a whole bunch of just like really rough sound bites.

Speaker 8: Well, actually I gave a commencement speech a year ago Okay. All about AI.

Speaker 2: Really?

Speaker 8: Yes. Did you get booed? No. But they my I went to Union College. They were Okay. I would say 90% of the audience was hungover and was listening to me.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 8: It went over really well.

Speaker 2: Yeah. What was the thesis of your commencement speech?

Speaker 8: It was lean into humanity and AI is coming and you all need to learn AI but you need to lean into your humanity and your creativity. And in fact, I played a Suno song

Speaker 2: No way.

Speaker 8: And then had a human come up and play the same song, and her song version was so much better.

Speaker 1: Woah. Wow. Interesting.

Speaker 8: I know. Right?

Speaker 1: Mogged.

Speaker 2: Wait. You did this at the commencement speech?

Speaker 8: Yeah. Did this.

Speaker 2: Wow.

Speaker 8: But but again, nobody nobody knew because they were all super hungover.

Speaker 2: I'm ahead of the wave. Yeah.

Speaker 8: Yeah. I was ahead of the wave.

Speaker 2: For sure.

Speaker 8: But, you know, I think if they had had me instead of Eric Schmidt, I wouldn't have gotten booed because I'm not a tech billionaire.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Would you would you change anything if you were giving that speech today? Cause it seems like the message would still resonate but probably needs to be delivered in a different way because people people might say, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's going to be AI and you know, I'm still relevant because there's this unique human element that will remain and maybe I believe that. But in the meantime, the earth is gonna melt because of all the data centers. I still don't like it. Let's just let's just do the human thing.

Speaker 8: Well, think the hate a year later is a lot stronger. Yeah. I think we've seen the job impact. We've heard about the job impact from tech executives. Yeah. These students I think have started to also talk to their peers who graduated a year before, and they're like, oh shit, they don't have jobs.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 8: Right? And I mean, I'm sure you guys see that in people applying for jobs here, and lots of people out of out of just out of school looking for really great jobs and what they studied.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And so I think that that impact a year later is super real. If you talk to any young person either in college, out of college, they are thinking about that, and that is a very real thing. Yeah. So I think a year later, it would be a definite difference.

Speaker 2: Post post

Speaker 8: I probably just wouldn't talk about it.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Post GFC, like, the tech industry was a fantastic track to get on for new grads. Like, if you were working in law or finance or sales or tech And you could just find your way into a mag seven company like you did very very well and sort of live the American dream. And if those jobs are not available at the same clip, that's going to affect the new grad classic pretty significantly.

Speaker 8: I think you should start asking actually a lot of the executives you

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: You interview what how what their advice would be.

Speaker 2: Yeah. We we we ask a fair amount of time advice for for young people. Get a varying amount of amount of responses. I mean entrepreneurship broadly is Yep. Continues to be a bright spot since it's easier than ever to start a company, easier than ever to scale a company. There's so much more that you can do or learn with AI. It's I hard

Speaker 8: know this as a business owner.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. But but it is hard because like there are people who are just like, I don't wanna start a company. Yeah. I want a job. Yeah. And and I

Speaker 8: wanna learn the things so I can one day be a business owner or job.

Speaker 1: Or I just Or never.

Speaker 2: I just never want to Yeah. Own a business. I want to do a job. And Yeah. If that concept goes away, that's very very tricky. And then also you have a much broader swath of of outcomes from entrepreneurship than from jobs. Like, if you just look at the the net worth distribution between entrepreneurs, you have like seven orders magnitude versus like lawyers like, yeah, there's probably a lawyer that's making 6 figures and there's probably a lawyer that's making 7 figures.

Speaker 1: Yeah. There's no trillionaire I don't understand is like at what point in the last twenty years was a good time to just be looking for a job and just like going on job boards and applying randomly? Like Mhmm. Was was there a point? I I graduated in 2018. Certainly at that point, going and just applying without Any trying to find other other ways in was not super effective.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, in in in the lead up to the global financial crisis, like, finance industry was so was booming so much that there was, like, you know, banking recruiting would happen in the fall, and all the banks would come to a job fair, and you could show your resume. And if you were, you know, an a student and you did well at a serious college, you could land at a a Goldman, a Morgan Stanley, JPM, or go into consulting at Bain, BCG, McKinsey. And this was like a very established track for, like, upwardly mobile, like, you know, neo elites, basically. Basically. And and and that and that still exists to some extent, but it is maybe more fragile than we previously thought.

Speaker 8: And I would say pre pandemic for the tech industry. Right?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Google, Microsoft, they would just be on campus. They would have like

Speaker 8: used to be known as

Speaker 2: and thousands of openings and you could slot in if you were like at the top of your class at a great school, which is a lot to ask. But for that to become fragile, think is what's causing a lot of anxiety among the young folks. Anyway.

Speaker 1: What is your current advice for for those individuals? Is it the same as the speech you gave?

Speaker 8: Yeah. I think you've got to do more to get in front of people. I mean, even just as a business owner. Yeah. I'm just gonna keep saying that. It

Speaker 1: goes way harder.

Speaker 8: It goes way I have really I've had so many applicants, it's just been such an honor. I'm like amazed to see how many people would want to come and work at what we're building. And the people who are doing really unique things to get in front of you, which means really knowing the company, really knowing the mission, but also then being able to sell on, hey, I want to I want to be I wanna give you the best human talents that I have, which right now for me at least is in the creativity and in the writing and in the reporting. I'm gonna use AI to do these other things. Mhmm. And just having a very basic knowledge, I mean I'd like you to have more than a basic knowledge, but a willingness and a and a knowledge of these tools and what you can do and what you can offset to them, I think is

Speaker 2: huge. Yeah.

Speaker 8: I mean, don't I I guess that sounds like a cop out, like just learn the tools, but I I really believe that someone who comes to me and says, actually I'm gonna use this and this and this and I'm gonna do that task

Speaker 1: Yeah. The bar is not that high. I remember when I when I was a teenager, if you could like make a website even things like Squarespace existed, you could you could like get in the door because there were people that had companies that would be like, okay, we know this person, everyone has access to Squarespace or whatever products were popular at the time. But if this person can just, like, has figured it out, they can show you one thing that they made. Yeah.

Speaker 2: I mean, they like yeah. It does feel like somewhat basic advice, but, like, applying to a 100 jobs a week, spend one week, apply to one job, actually get to know the company, do something that is beneficial to stand out Yep. And you're just in the top 1% of applicants because 99 other people just clicked like the apply button and

Speaker 8: And I've been thinking a lot about sort of human mentorship through a lot of this, and that I don't think I could be doing what I'm doing right now if I hadn't had the years of human mentorship at other companies and other newsrooms. And you're really lucky if you can find a really great mentor, and so I think that's about just that human connection part still. Can you find someone in that company? Can you connect with somebody who is is just gonna try to impart to you some of the skills that you also might not learn now on the job? Because that's the other big hurdle this generation's up against, is that if you're not gonna learn the skills on the job, how are you ever gonna learn them?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Any theories about how it's my last question that's top of mind for now. Theories about how AI wearables will evolve. Do we do you feel like we need do you think there's space for new AI hardware? Or I'm assuming you tried everything

Speaker 8: tried I I'm I'm look. I come out of the at end of the book. I think this is gonna happen. I think we are going to have this next computer shift to something that is a wearable or something that is more ambient around us because I spent a lot of last year talking and I still now talking to AI whether it is in glasses or in the car, and that experience is very good. Mhmm. And so we we're gonna get to the companionship thing one day, but whether you're using it as a companion, which I hope people aren't really, you know, I don't want you to fall in love with your chatbot, that's a big lesson in the book, please don't do that. But if you're using it as a personal coach, a personal career coach, trainer, just assistant, interacting with it through a pair of glasses or a wearable that you a bracelet that might be recording you or that even if you mentioned the pin that the doctors are starting to wear, it's really compelling when it works right. It doesn't work great right now, but I can see it's starting to work really well. I think we had efforts at it with like the humane pin. It just didn't do much for you. The hardware was so poor, it just didn't do it was the hardware got in the way of it. And so now if we can bring it to life in both with voice and microphones, I think it's gonna be pretty cool.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. The the thing that I've been thinking about, everything so far, I think has been cool demos. Yeah. You know, not not quite ready for to be real products, but things that if they were shipped internally at a big company, like if Humane was was a product that had been shipped internally at Apple, like, this is like kinda where we're we're headed. Right? Yep. It would have been gotten a great response internally and probably gotten more resources but not ready for prime time. I've been thinking about just like general phone fatigue. And if you generally gave me a device that allowed me to do things on the internet without being like a source of just like kind of general like stress. Right? Yeah. Inbox like how many different inboxes do we have? And I think that I think that people are so online now that it presents an opportunity for a device that allows you to stay more connected, Still still allows you to stay kind of connected with the world, but in a way that's like a little bit more passive. Right? Like, if just being able to say like, hey, let such and such friend know that we should think about doing something on Saturday versus like hammering out

Speaker 8: The right text and getting distracted by a notification next thing.

Speaker 1: Right? And and I do think there's this more ambient product space to be explored that it could at least get my time on I have a I have a buddy who like only uses his Apple Watch on the weekend.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: So he can't really use apps. He can like generally stay in contact. He's not sending emails. Yeah. He's just saying like, yeah, if you wanna get ahold of me, you can, but I'm not. And so I think there's something in that space. And then the other thing, like part of Apple's moat was that there's millions of apps for every little use case and so many of those use cases are just able to be done by the models now.

Speaker 8: Yep.

Speaker 1: And if they can't be and you need UI, you can just generate something like that on the fly a little bit more, a lot more easily. And so I think there's a moment here and but I think a large part of the opportunity is not because the iPhone isn't great, it's because there's fatigue around this, like, insane connectivity that everybody's been sort of just fallen into over the last decade.

Speaker 8: No. I I totally agree and get to that sort of in the back of the book, and I have this chart where you see we go from computers that sit in our homes to the iPhone or the smartphone and then something else. And my big point there is that nothing got replaced, that we still have the laptop in our home or that we take with us, we still have the smartphone, but then we have these wearables right now but they haven't fully lived up to anything other than health and even there. We can argue if they have really lived up for anything, I know everyone wears their Whoop bands and now is very interested in the Fitbit Air.

Speaker 2: Oh

Speaker 8: yeah. But I think like I wore this Apple Watch side by side with a few other AI wearables last year where on their own these wearables were not great but they were doing specific things and I was like, wow. This it makes this watch feel dumb sometimes.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Right? And like I wore the the the Bee bracelet with Bee was acquired by Amazon at the August 2025.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. That was sort of random at the time or felt a little bit random.

Speaker 8: Yeah. And Limitless was another one I wore and they were acquired by Meta. I think that

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 8: This idea of persistent recording is going to we're going to have privacy issues around it, but I do really think that when you can have this thing listening to you and synthesizing a lot about your day and what you say you're going to do, it is there was many times where I was like, this is a holy crap moment. I was like, wow. I said I was gonna do all these things and now my app just told me to do them. Right? Or to your point like

Speaker 1: Well, it really interesting when that it doesn't just make a to do list, but it does those things. Right? Hey, order these things from the you know, order these things from Instacart. Book this reservation.

Speaker 8: It's far away from that, but it could be so cool.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Don't know. I mean, far away could be a year. Maybe. Yeah. We'll see.

Speaker 8: But like there's this perfect example where I say, like, my Bee bracelet has picked up on me saying that I need to call the plumber, and I forget to like I keep forgetting to call the plumber, and keep telling my wife, oh yeah, I'm going call the plumber, but my Bee bracelet keeps adding it to the list every day. Right? And yeah. Why couldn't the why couldn't we have the agent call the plumber, and then the plumber's just like We

Speaker 1: created magic. We created artificial intelligence that just creates more to do lists. And plumbers. Yeah.

Speaker 8: With my broken toilet in my house.

Speaker 1: Well someday we'll get it fixed.

Speaker 8: Yeah. No, I think the look, I think OpenAI and whatever they're making with Johnny Ive is gonna be it's gonna be worth paying attention to. I don't know if it's gonna be a mass scale thing that's gonna be absolutely worth paying attention to because I think I've specifically had some ideas about our dependence on phones and where I think that's gonna play into this messaging of any of these devices is where we're going beyond phones. Yep. But to be clear, the phone doesn't go away.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How do you think about the the trade off of like all this happening and then, you know, your position that you should not fall in love with an AI bot?

Speaker 8: Don't do it.

Speaker 2: It feels like reflective like you said here. If you think as I do that social media was bad for kids, society, politics, our brains, you name it, AI could end up being worse. And I agree with you. And the kids thing seems like the easiest to to sort out because now I think a lot of parents are implementing screen time for kids. But the more broad questions like about society and business, like I'm a huge beneficiary of social media as are you. We use it to market our products effectively build whole businesses on top of. At the same time, like, I don't know that we have a good pattern for social media hygiene. How incumbent on is it on the, like, the companies to roll things out responsibly? Like, Replica clearly exists. We've had the founder on the show multiple times. And but I don't know. It's like, are we going towards, like, national conversations, bans on certain usages, like

Speaker 8: And where I get on that is very like, look, we we should just have a ban on companionship chatbots and bots and toys for kids. Like we don't need it. Why do we need it? Yeah. Right? We're getting there in some ways with social media. Yeah. I think

Speaker 2: That sort of worked for cigarettes. Like we banned them for kids, and then we banned a lot of the marketing, and eventually like the younger generation just sort of stopped picking it up.

Speaker 8: And this is where I think are we going to ban AI for kids in general? No.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Right? Yeah. There's going to be the educational, the the con academies Yeah. And the Google classrooms of the world that are going to honestly be important about teaching digital literacy to our kids around AI. Like that's we have to do that and I I talk about that with my own kids in the book. But why do we need our kids turning to chatbots about their problems?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: No. Just don't have it happen. I mean it's caused so many problems for OpenAI.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Totally.

Speaker 8: Right? Yeah. Like there's been nothing but a problem for them to

Speaker 2: have kids

Speaker 8: or teens talking to chatbots about their problems. Yeah. Maybe there's examples of some good of it. Yeah. You

Speaker 2: know. Just KYC those features off like it's Yeah. Another thing.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah. And like I think it's harder

Speaker 2: YouTube's done a great job of this too. Like sort of I mean after a

Speaker 8: long time. Exactly. But

Speaker 2: they eventually figured it out

Speaker 8: next Exactly. And that we feel like we're in that moment. That's a really good example. Feel like we're in that moment of like, you know, kids' early days being on YouTube rabbit holing into dark conspiracy theories. And look, you can still, those things still happen, but I I watch my kids watch YouTube now and I can see a lot clearer how they've put guardrails around the content and they've built in a lot of things. And again, not saying it's perfect. And Mhmm. But to your question, can these companies self police it? I don't know. Like they they probably are gonna have to because their government is not gonna do anything. Need yeah.

Speaker 2: Is it.

Speaker 1: Mic down.

Speaker 8: Mic down. Mic Yeah. Non effector.

Speaker 2: I wonder, it is odd that you see increasing demand from American consumers for these weird products, weird use cases like AI romantic companions. And yet you also see you also hear the booze like I don't but want then I go and I buy it or something. It's like this weird I mean, obviously it's multiple different

Speaker 8: And I have seen that a lot today on the timeline. How many of these kids that are booing also were using, you know, to write their essays or write their resumes?

Speaker 2: That's a little more optimistic. But the the the weirder one is like, yeah, protesting the AI while while pulling like the darkest pieces of the AI out or demanding it. But I don't know. At the same time, there there was a lot of fear mongering about Elon Musk and x AI like really leaning into the romantic companion. And same thing with Sora too Yeah. To a similar extent of like this is Infinite Jest. It's gonna, you know, you're gonna become so addicted to it. And with both of those products it felt like they just didn't find product market fit. And I don't know if it's like we're early but both of those like x AI is now doing like code completion with cursor Right. And like serving clot. Right? Right. And that's a much more like functional, I would say like the good outcome versus like the Ani and Valentine thing which

Speaker 8: is Right. A little And then

Speaker 2: there was like the mecca ones.

Speaker 1: I remember thinking at the time XAI needed to do that to basically differentiate because the Right. General chatbot market had run away from them.

Speaker 2: Yeah. We did some back of the envelope on it. We were like, maybe this is like a multi billion dollar business, we were trying to underwrite like

Speaker 1: Yeah. Somewhat of a white somewhat of a white belt.

Speaker 2: Even if you're just like, put all the moral stuff aside like, is x AI gonna make money off of this? And it was like sort of hard to get to but you might be able to get there but it was weird. But then the market just sort of rejected it.

Speaker 8: The market I'm sure there are a few people that still

Speaker 2: For sure.

Speaker 8: Use

Speaker 2: this. For sure.

Speaker 8: Annie, if she's still alive out there.

Speaker 2: I think she is.

Speaker 8: She's still there? She's there?

Speaker 2: I I yeah. I I think

Speaker 8: You don't know by

Speaker 2: Although although the the computing resources are getting sold out of the back of the truck left and right. That's Anthropic was I'm sorry, Annie.

Speaker 8: Right. Annie had

Speaker 2: to Good luck. You're gonna

Speaker 8: have to is actually improving.

Speaker 2: You have to think less, basically. And cursors, Michael Trullo's like, look. Annie is gonna be running a very old model. It's actually gonna run on CPUs now. Just a smarter child that just reflects whatever you

Speaker 8: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Say back to it. That's it.

Speaker 8: It's a line command.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It's more of a small language model now.

Speaker 8: Yeah. I don't know. I think you kind of go back to like the replicas. Yeah. There there is a mark they have pushed marketing these these kind of companions.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Character AI.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah. And Meta did it for a little bit too. Think they'll probably pull away from that with their

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 8: Celebrity Yeah. Companion blah blah blah. But I could also see them leaning into it more too because it is a social network. And they do see this as all eventually as Mark Zuckerberg has said, us having personal assistance and personal super intelligence. Yeah. And that probably has to come through the view of a some sort of bot. Yeah.

Speaker 2: I don't know if

Speaker 8: it needs to be like a sexy bot. Yeah. Like a cow.

Speaker 2: They they Maybe that's of them. That that was one of them. Was it? So basically, the the whole story with that, they it went viral because there was one that was like stepmom or something like that. It was like a little bit crude.

Speaker 1: But that was

Speaker 2: community generated. So Meta created the ability for anyone to go prompt a bot, basically write a pre prompt to, like, create the character. And so

Speaker 8: The Snoop Dogg.

Speaker 2: The visit the like, the sins of the creator revisited upon Meta incorrectly, but there were some funny ones like cow, and you could just talk to a cow, which I think is nice.

Speaker 8: You know what? I don't remember the last time anyone fell in love with a cow. So that sounds fine.

Speaker 2: I think it sounds fine. You know? Anyway.

Speaker 8: Pita might have some problems. I don't know.

Speaker 2: No. Digital cow, what's not to like? No. Anyway, congratulations on the both It's been honor

Speaker 1: to follow your business owner journey.

Speaker 8: Yes. It's been an honor to be named a business owner by sitting here.

Speaker 2: Yes. What what

Speaker 1: I mean, you didn't we can't make we can't you you don't become a business owner.

Speaker 8: Yeah. No. But you gave me that title.

Speaker 1: I know. But you got that title by selling products.

Speaker 2: By running a business.

Speaker 1: Revenue. Revenue. Revenue makes you a business owner.

Speaker 8: But, you know, I felt like when I walked in the store, was a founder.

Speaker 2: Okay. And you walked of owner.

Speaker 8: You're right? Thank you for the business, guys.

Speaker 2: Yes. I appreciate Oh, there we go. Perfect.

Speaker 1: You got it. There you go.

Speaker 2: There we go. Wait. Nailed

Speaker 8: it. Thank you for

Speaker 2: having me. Ridiculous. And thank you for tuning in.

Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in.

Speaker 2: The latest Fox Taurus on Apple Podcast and Spotify. Sign up for a newsletter at tbpn.com, and go get the book.

Speaker 8: I am

Speaker 2: not a robot by Joanna Stern. It's available everywhere books are sold and we will see you tomorrow at

Speaker 1: Pacific. We love

Speaker 2: you. Goodbye. Goodbye.