Tatari's Philip Inghelbrecht: from founding Shazam in 1999 to building a $100M+ profitable TV ad tech company

Speaker 1: Wild times in the semiconductor stock world, but we are moving on. We're going to be talking to our next guest about advertising and a lot of other stuff. Welcome to the show. How are you doing?

Speaker 6: I'm doing well.

Speaker 1: Thank you so

Speaker 6: having me above anything.

Speaker 1: Please introduce yourself for everyone who's watching.

Speaker 6: Sure thing. So my name is Philip Inghelbrecht. Yeah. My accent is Belgium. I'm a recently crowned American, very proud of.

Speaker 1: Congratulations. Thank you. And

Speaker 6: I'm the CEO of a company called Tatari. Yeah. We are in short technology for TV advertisers.

Speaker 5: Okay.

Speaker 6: That means that anybody who uses our product

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Can manage their creatives, they can plan their TV campaigns, they can execute the campaigns or buy the inventory, measure it, optimize, rinse, repeat over and over. Yeah. We do so not just for streaming TV

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Because I think there's a lot of talk about Linear. But also Linear. Yeah. Cable and broadcast, kind of the old fashioned TV. And OTA.

Speaker 1: Over the air. Right?

Speaker 6: Yes. Yes. That that that that's that's somewhat going away.

Speaker 2: Oh, that's going away? Yeah.

Speaker 6: It is. It is.

Speaker 2: We'll get into all that.

Speaker 6: We'll get into that.

Speaker 1: Take us back first. Wanna hear where you grew up, what you studied, your first company. I wanna hear the journey.

Speaker 6: Yes. And this is where I'm gonna age myself. So as I mentioned, grew up in Belgium, I got called by the Silicon Valley and the .com boom.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 6: And that's also where I started my first company Yeah. December 1799, Shazam.

Speaker 1: 1999? Wow.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Were you born? Wow. What a what a time. We were both Yeah. Just I was just a boy. I was

Speaker 1: an early adopter. Although, I don't know if I was using it in the nineties. Was it

Speaker 2: the product when you actually started it?

Speaker 6: Yeah. It was very

Speaker 2: and I guess, like, you done any kind of scrappy startups back in Belgium or this was your first?

Speaker 6: Let me answer that in Please. First. My parents had a small grocery store supermarket Okay. And I just worked hard.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 6: But I don't think I was an entrepreneur as we would define it today back then.

Speaker 1: It was

Speaker 2: in the blood.

Speaker 6: Yes. That's where I learned what hardworking meant and what it can deliver. Yeah. Shazam was very different. So I mean look at we put it together before, you know, even the iPhone existed or the iTunes store. So the first version which launched in August 2002 Mhmm. Is when you heard a song you actually had to take your phone Yeah. And then dial a short code on your handset. Oh, right. Yeah. You didn't have to remember the number because if you can look on any telephone handset, 2580 are the four digits right in the middle. We then would listen to the song as as if you were speaking into your handset, do the recognition and then send a text message back with the name of the track and the artist. To receive that text message, it goes one step further, there would be what is called a reverse SMS charge.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 6: By dialing that short code, you accepted to be charged to receive that SMS and then just to top it off because we were not a nonprofit, we had to make money, we also cut a rev share with the mobile operators Wow. On the back of that. It sounds great but it didn't really go anywhere.

Speaker 1: Yeah. To be

Speaker 2: honest. Also also you started so this takes you two years

Speaker 6: Three

Speaker 2: years. To build the product.

Speaker 1: Yeah. What's going on from '99

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 1: To launching the product? There's a massive market sell off in that time. Like, did you Yeah. We had a

Speaker 6: lot of fun. No kidding. No. Mean, like, timing is everything. Okay. Right timing is everything. And if I look at Shazam, there's kind of what I would call good timing and bad timing. Yeah. The good timing is industry transformation. Yeah. And that applies to any startups. The industry transformation for Shazam was evident. Yeah. In between 2000 and 2002, the recording industry in The United States shrank from about $15,000,000,000 to $78,000,000,000 annually. Everybody claimed or blamed Napster and piracy for that. I somewhat disagree. I think it was Steve Jobs who unbundled the CD and allowed individual downloads. Right? But an industry in peril is good for a startup. Mhmm. So our timing there, good.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 6: The bad part is well, the the technology wasn't ready for it. Sure, we had the algorithm but the experience to Shazamu's song was just

Speaker 2: Did you have the algorithm or was it people on the other end recording it?

Speaker 6: No. No. No. The algorithm was real.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 6: But the experience was just clunky. I mean like, right? It wasn't till the iPhone came along, right, where you had that beautiful experience with a touch collar screen, you hold your phone to it and and it comes back with rich information. And and that changed everything, not to mention the distribution with the iTunes Store. Yeah.

Speaker 2: You started the company in '99 but the iPhone doesn't come out till 2000 Yeah. And

Speaker 6: 2007. Whatever. Yeah, either way.

Speaker 2: So you're just chewing glass the whole time or was there any Really? Was there signs of life?

Speaker 6: No. No signs of life. Absolutely. I can show you a chart. We have time with music or shazams, right? And and so we were flatlining and when we were running the consumer business, we were bleeding cash.

Speaker 2: So you raised you had raised some money?

Speaker 6: We raised some money. The truth or the unknown story about Shazam is that around 2002 or 2003, I realized that there were big companies that actually needed music recognition for royalty tracking.

Speaker 2: Think of

Speaker 6: companies like BMI or ASCAP. And so I started cutting multi million dollar licenses with them. And so while we're whilst we're raking in money on the business side, we're kind of quickly losing it on the consumer side. Yeah. And then the iPhone came along

Speaker 1: Wait. In exchange. Yeah. Walk me through the anatomy of one of those BMI deals. Where are they identifying music? Are they are they going to a bar and seeing that a song is being played and then they hit the bar up for a payment? Like how does that actually work?

Speaker 6: Yeah. Or just radio. Right? So if you rewind the clock back twenty years and you're an artist, you get paid on to the extent that your song is being played on the radio.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 6: And the way that was done back then was sampling literally pen and paper. You put a few college students in a warehouse and you let them sample to a few hours of music, you write it down. Yeah. So sampling unfortunately doesn't work well if you're a small time artist because you're never going to show up in the artist. So they had a lot of complaints. They had to go from a sample survey to a consensus survey.

Speaker 1: Interesting.

Speaker 6: That's what Shazam did in an industrial setting for them. Now every single song

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Airwaved on say the 2,000 radio stations in The United States was accounted for and royalties could paid for.

Speaker 1: Direct link to the radio stations, or were you receiving the radio waves?

Speaker 6: You take it from you take it from the radio.

Speaker 1: You so so you

Speaker 6: You still do that today for Tatari, by the

Speaker 1: way. Wow. Okay. So so you had to set up radio antennas in every market then as well and then encode that into a database that you could access over the Internet. Was that what was going on?

Speaker 6: Sure. We didn't place the antenna. This is kind of like Yeah. Equipment that you can lease.

Speaker 1: Oh, okay. But but So you say, I want to track Boston. Let me go lease the antenna in Boston. I will get a feed that then I can There you through the system on the server.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah. That part is easy. It's it's Okay.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It doesn't doesn't really sound that easy to say. Yeah. But Here's a here's a part I actually quickly want

Speaker 6: to since we talk a little bit Shazamy, I'll quickly share is that Shazamy is a company that never should have existed. Okay. Right? Because ultimately, it was a coming together of four concepts, each improbable in their own right. We had to build the largest database of music in digital format to have the reference track Yeah. In the year 2000. We had to invent the algorithm. Music recognition like we do for Sizzan didn't exist yet. When we had the algorithm, we, right, we had to find a computer cluster to run it on. There wasn't a Google Cloud or AWS, so we had to when we came into the office, we were littered with screws and bolts and equipment on the floor. And then four, like I just alluded to, we had to get all the mobile operators on board to get this thing going.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 6: So even if I'm generous, I'm giving each of those 410% probability, you compound them together, I'm probably gonna drop a decimal here, but the chance of Shazam surviving and existing today is about zero point zero zero one percent.

Speaker 1: I'm going back.

Speaker 6: Crazy story. Nothing. Tatari was a whole lot easier.

Speaker 1: Okay. Interesting. Well, to close the Shazam story, talk about the decision to work with Apple.

Speaker 6: We the company was sold to Apple. Yeah. Right? And But why?

Speaker 1: What was the motivation? What was the what was the potential? Yeah. Why was it the right time?

Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean, I always say that Apple bought Sazam for a song. Mhmm. But I think, you know, at that time, Apple wanted to build build its own Apple Music subscription Mhmm. Service, and Shazam is an incredible legion to that. You recognize the song instead of buying or downloading the song, subscribe to Apple Music. Yeah. And so that was, you know, in the in the business of music streaming, your true how should I say that licensing the content is is always variable to your revenue, and that's not a true cost of goods sold. Yeah. Your true cost is is user acquisition. Yeah. And so Shazam gave Apple that Trojan horse to get in there.

Speaker 1: Yeah. What was the what were the secrets to user acquisition at Shazam? I mean, I I feel like I must have found out about it from some tech blog talking about the coolest new apps or something, but what was the funnel? Three words,

Speaker 6: blood, sweat, and tears.

Speaker 2: No kidding.

Speaker 6: Bro, it was look, it was it was difficult. Right? As I mentioned, those first few years, we flatlined because nobody figured out about it and and and it was a clunky experience. When the iPhone launched

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 6: And they made, right, they had to showcase the power of that device, not to mention when the iTunes store launched

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 6: And they needed to fill it with great apps. Yep. We were front and center. Yeah. That that was our launching plan.

Speaker 1: It was such a differentiated app. There were so many apps for games and so many apps for there's 10 different calculator flashlight

Speaker 6: It gave

Speaker 1: you pass tracking apps. It was only Shazam.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I I I make

Speaker 6: it sound like as if we got incredibly lucky, but let let's be realistic. We had to wait five years

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 6: In the dark So alleys for that to I feel like we earned

Speaker 4: it.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It's it's it's fun. We had Roger Linshan, who was the CEO of Pandora last week. And for me, as a kid, Shazam and Pandora were the two magical technology experiences, like so memorable. Going from, you know, you hear you're listening to the radio, you hear a song. Google even Googling lyrics back then didn't work very well. You could nowadays, you can string together three or four Yeah. Five words and probably get the track.

Speaker 6: Oh,

Speaker 2: yeah. But back and you have a phone right there. But back then, if you would do three or four words together, it didn't it wouldn't find the right song. And so just like going from having those moments where you you hear a song, you love it, and then it's just gone forever or maybe you hope you hear it on the radio again and you kinda catch Yeah. Something about who the artist is.

Speaker 1: I remember at one point it got so good, there was an auto mode that you could you could turn on, leave it in your pocket if you're at a bar or something and it would at the end of the night show you the full playlist, every song that it detected.

Speaker 6: And you also had noticed that at the end of the night you would have a depleted battery in Yeah. Your We've gotten better at those things.

Speaker 1: But there some are fantastic memories and some of those songs

Speaker 2: live on in playlists that I

Speaker 1: would listen to to this day.

Speaker 6: And to me it's more than just knowing what the song is. It's about creating your playlist

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Knowing what to listen to Yeah. Right at the time. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. So talk about your did you spend a lot of time at Apple? Were you there at all? No.

Speaker 6: Or did you move on immediately? Yeah. No. So I left kind of the company operationally around 2004.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 6: I joined Google. I was one of the early people at YouTube. Yeah. Incredible ride, incredible experience. I then left and launched a product called TrueCar, actually here in LA. Yeah. So I can live here. TrueCar. Did that for a few years, then moved back up north. Was at another startup, we got acquired by Yahoo. Eventually in 2016, I started my current company Mhmm. Tatari, which we kind of started this whole conversation with.

Speaker 1: Yeah. So tell us It's been

Speaker 6: nine years now.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Tell us about the idea for Tatari, the the timing, the blood, sweat, and tears

Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Or lack thereof.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Think the the kind of the the the idea for most startups comes from personal experiences.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Right? Shazam, not knowing what the song is. Sure. TrueCar being afraid of going to the dealership. Yep. Tatari was actually the TV advertising experience which I witnessed at TrueCar. Yeah. Not great. Right? Sure. And so I knew we could do better. We started with TV measurement. Why? Because if you can measure TV campaigns and its effectiveness better, then we can optimize and make it run better. Yep. We quickly realized that there was an opportunity for injecting technology and data science in the buying process as well. You put the two together, buying and measurement, it makes for what the target is today. So we are 300 people strong. We're a US company. We're doing well over a $100,000,000 in net revenue.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 6: Right? And that's not media. Right? That would be in order of Yeah. Much higher. We've been profitable from day number one and been mostly self funded. Amazing. Can I get the gong for that?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Hit it yourself. Hit it yourself. You're here. Alright. Thank you.

Speaker 1: There we go. Let's smash the gong. Great.

Speaker 2: So you mentioned something about Shazam which is like starting starting a business in a sort of a troubled industry during the time of the music industry was struggling. Tatari looks very obvious in hindsight but maybe Yeah. Some entrepreneurs wouldn't go into that because they're like TV's dead. Right? This idea. And you and you were probably looking at sort of the global TV advertising spend and and to my knowledge, it's still growing, right?

Speaker 6: It it although modestly. Modestly. Unlike, you know, certain other media.

Speaker 1: But everyone I mean, you just ask a random tech person, they'll be like, it's down 20% every year and it's gonna be zero in two years. Like, that's the default assumption in tech.

Speaker 6: Let's say, unlike print and radio, it's holding up nicely in The United States at about $90,000,000,000 per year. Yeah. What's happening inside is this massive transformation out of, you know, cable or and and broadcast TV into streaming. I mean, you experience this yourselves Of every day. Yeah. That is again the good timing component. Yes. For sure. I did see that. Right? I I love your one liner TV as that, you know, starting this company in the Silicon Valley in San Francisco for Whom TV was a big no no. I mean, like I had to hear this many many times.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: It's actually one of the reasons why I actually didn't really raise money for this company because

Speaker 2: Nobody I

Speaker 6: don't think that Sand Hill would have given me those, you know, the valuations we just heard. Yeah. So sometimes it'd be better lucky than good, you

Speaker 1: know? Yeah. No.

Speaker 2: But it creates an opportunity too because you know that you're not going to get the 50 other ultra talent True that. Teams going after True that. The same

Speaker 6: has changed since then but yeah. Yeah. But that's good. Competition is good. Competition keeps you sharp. Yeah. Keeps you going. Gets the best out of you. That's all cool.

Speaker 1: So talk about the early measurement struggles. Like if I'm running TV ad campaign for the Super Bowl or NBC Sports or something, like, why can't I just call them and say, tell me exactly what happened? Why don't they have the data? Is it a trust issue? Is it a measurement issue? Like Yeah. What what was the market opportunity?

Speaker 6: Yeah. Let let's unpack those kind of referring to measurement and then the buying process.

Speaker 1: Sure. Sure.

Speaker 6: So let's start with the measurement. The the way in which TV advertising has always been measured traditionally was via Nielsen.

Speaker 1: Nielsen ratings. Right?

Speaker 6: Yeah. The success of my campaign is defined by the extent to which I reach an audience. Yeah. As newer brands came to TV with digital experience, they want more. They want to know the effectiveness. Mhmm. To what extent has my campaign driven sign ups or installs of my apps or downloads of my products, whichever it is. LTV? Yeah. LTV. It's a good customer that stuck around for

Speaker 1: a long time.

Speaker 6: Right. And so that was actually one of the first things we did.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 6: Right. The first thing we did was bring about a different type of measurement for TV. Sure. That outcome measurement. Yeah. Not the not the kind of the audience measurement. How do it? Build, invent from scratch. Yeah. My co founder, yeah, just you know, look at the as many data sets that we can find and try to make the most out of it and and and you know there's there's both deterministic and probabilistic approaches to this, a whole lot of algorithms and math to it. It's never ending. Mhmm. It's a little bit I refer to like like like the large language models or the Google search algorithm every month or two or three we find a little tweak and then we release that and update. And so it definitely has spoken to the smaller brands because when we now bring a smaller brand to TV, I don't know, a company like Spot and Tango, I I don't know what their marketing campaigns are, but they're definitely heavy in digital. When they first get into TV, they would like to see a measurement that they compare on an apples to apples basis to

Speaker 1: Cocktail TV.

Speaker 6: Exactly. Right? And and once they get in and they grow and they gain confidence, then they can switch to that Nielsen recipe which isn't necessarily bad

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 6: But it's more destined for the bigger brands. Yeah. Right? Where do I create my reach and awareness? And so we'll do both. Mhmm. We'll do both continuously. The name of the game in the world of TV advertising is scaling up. Some of our brands start with actually, sorry, most of our brands start with as little as $50,000 or a $100,000. Last year, we placed four, five brands in the Super Bowl. Right? Wow. Those are $15,000,000 plus tickets. Yeah. Again, these are all brands that we kind of took took took them through that journey. So that's the maybe it's a good dovetail then into the buying experience. Yeah. Look, there's a still of, what do say, analog practices in TV, the Super Bowl and phone calls. Yep. That's how you buy it. There's obviously an incredible drive for this concept of programmatic

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 6: In TV advertising. I will say this and I'm not sure I'm opening a can of worms here, I don't think it's the right model. Right? Programmatic, ultimately, the TV advertising market and the supply of ad inventory is very concentrated. 90% of all the impressions impressions typically come from the top 10 publishers. It's what the three of us watch on TV. Mhmm. The big names Disney, Peacock and Alive. Sure. Right? And so we have such concentration and supply, it really doesn't make sense to apply digital principles and technology I. Programmatic to get into it. You're much better off with direct integrations. And so that's where we will differ a lot from the industry. You know, again it works better for the publishers, works better for the brands, you don't have the intermediaries, you don't have the So

Speaker 2: Just to repeat that back to you. Basically, if I'm a ESPN or one of the platforms, I wanna know that a certain brand is allocating $5,000,000 a year to my Yep. To to of spend with me and then you're just sort of like allocating that. It's not like they wanna sell each individual slot for, you know, $10,000 here, $20,000 here, that kind of thing.

Speaker 6: That's the ideal but that's that's not always feasible. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Got it.

Speaker 1: How is how is AI changing the the TV ad buying space? And what I'm what I'm interested in particularly is as the cost of generating new creative comes down Yep. That feels like that could be a tailwind to more programmatic ad buying on TV. Yep. At the same time, there's something about if Matthew McConaughey is in the Salesforce ad or Mr. Beast is in the Salesforce ad at the Super Bowl, everyone saw the same ad and so the fact that it's not personalized actually adds as a little kicker on top. Yep. Is that a mitigating factor? How how are you how are you assessing the tensions between

Speaker 6: me answer things? That part first and then I'll get to AI. Please. Right? Ultimately, you refer to targeting. Yeah. Targeting is good but always realize it's a double edged sword. Mhmm. Because the more you target, the smaller your audience become.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 6: Right? And then you just find one person. Ultimately, what you want to achieve with TV is finding people who've never heard about your product and service. Right? It's actually sometimes less about targeting but it's it's about driving reach and awareness.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Right? And generating demand, not so much harvesting through targeting. Yeah. Right? And so targeting is good but it's not it's more of a kind of like a a feature, it's not the core strategy of of finding a new audience. Mhmm. So so I would say that. AI, I mean, like, gosh, you know, like ad tech is is was primed for AI. Mhmm. Right? Because it it lives on data. Yeah. And and look, I'll yeah. I'll I'll be honest. I think we got a little lucky when it comes to AI as a company. It's like three four years ago as we grew so fast, we had to completely kind of like move out of a back end technology called Redshift into Databricks. Oh, interesting. Monstrous. But what it meant is that by the time the large language models became available, we were running hot. We were so ready for it.

Speaker 1: Oh, interesting.

Speaker 6: So in plain English, what does it mean as a Tatari client? Well, we can plan campaigns with technology and AI built on data sets and rich history in seconds with deadly accuracy across way more buying entities than a human being ever could do. Right? If you're a human buyer and you've got to choose out of 40,000 linear network rotation entities and 10,000 streaming opportunities, you you can't compute this in your head Mhmm. For a computer. This is this is easy. Right? And so AI and media planning, this is how we operate today. We actually we announced this about a year ago, we pretty much doubled our revenue with the same amount of people with tools like that. We're kind of wondering, we go to a four day work week now on the back of AI? The next thing out there is really leveraging AI in the execute media execution process Mhmm. Right, rather than running auctions, you know, tens or hundreds of thousands of auctions a second to get the best impressions. Maybe we don't run auctions, but we use AI to pick the ones that we believe are most fitting based on the data and the knowledge in the data.

Speaker 1: Oh, interesting. Yeah? Do you have any interaction or opportunity with some of the newer first party advertisers? We talked to the president of advertising at Netflix, and they at one point were partnering with an ad buyer. Now it feels very homegrown. Is there an opportunity for these other platforms as time and attention shifts onto the YouTubes of the world, the metas of the world? Is there a world where you play into that?

Speaker 6: Those companies I think you're referring to the walled gardens?

Speaker 1: Yeah, the walled gardens.

Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah. We've got a name.

Speaker 1: You have a good drill?

Speaker 6: We've got a name for them.

Speaker 1: Do you have a drill that can drill through the wall of the walled garden? Look,

Speaker 6: mean ultimately, like, know, there are certain, I think they're 15% of all kind of viewership today. Wow. And of course, we have we have we have products and services that lean into it. What's missing, and it's less for us, but it's more for the brands, is the data that allows us to bring that measurement about that. Yeah. Close the loop to it. And so what we've seen over the years is that many of the newer larger publishers, they they manifest themselves as a walled garden but then they see that hey, if I show a little bit of data that enables the measurement, then I get more advertisers and drives more media and I get the flywheel going. So we're hopeful that will change over the years. As brands, you know, YouTube is no longer a website or an app. Yeah. It's a TV channel. Yeah. So you gotta be there even if certain components aren't as fully built out as we as we would want it to be.

Speaker 1: Yeah. What what yeah. Jordy?

Speaker 2: Are there any very odd random question. Are there any are there any TV networks that are effectively just an infinite feed of short videos that people scroll through? Like like a vertical video. Because I can imagine you could make some pretty compelling television just

Speaker 1: saw someone screen shared their TikTok or Instagram reels in a theater and people showed up to watch in theater. Mostly a prank, mostly a stunt, but a very funny social experiment.

Speaker 6: Look, when Twitch was first explained to me and and you know like

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 6: Like I thought that was the silliest thing ever.

Speaker 1: They got video games on the Internet.

Speaker 6: But maybe not such an odd question. Yeah. I mean, there's been said that TikTok would go to TV. That all makes a lot of sense. What is TV? It's really is is as an advertiser. What is TV for an advertiser? It's the ability to show your company, right, in a rich media, audiovisual, not with a few characters, but fifteen to thirty seconds Mhmm. Above all to a consumer who is in a laid back experience most likely accepting of the ads. Yep. Right? And then not to mention the last but most important piece, the largest audience possible spending the most time. The reach of TV is bigger of that than say Instagram. But when people spend an average of thirty minutes per day on Instagram, they will spend three and a half hours and growing on TV every day.

Speaker 9: That's crazy.

Speaker 6: As an advertiser

Speaker 2: Yeah. It is. The debate the around phone addiction has completely given TV air cover, you know, because when I when I when I was, you know, ten ten years ago, it was the average American spends x amount of time watching TV

Speaker 1: Stickers in the eighties and nineties, TV rots your brain.

Speaker 6: They rebuilt Oh, yeah. My parents would give me hell for watching MTV. That would be the best thing if I if I could only convince my teenage daughters to watch MTV instead of TikTok, Noah. I'd be so much happier.

Speaker 1: Yeah. You just don't like it because it's Walmart.

Speaker 2: You just want the Amora.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. We're talking the

Speaker 6: ad inventory. I want more inventory. That's not the it's

Speaker 1: not about the the brain rods. It's a

Speaker 6: grassroots movement. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Where where do you where do you see the business going? You said that you're lightly capitalized, haven't raised a lot of money. Where do you see this Yeah. Where do you see taking the business financially?

Speaker 6: Yeah. Love and financially, I mean, look, we we I mean, I can share this. We we have a very clear plan to more than double the business in the next two and a half years. We started this plan actually like six months ago. Wow. Actually, we're actually kind of exceeding the plan right now.

Speaker 5: Great.

Speaker 6: We got to work it out. Yeah. I I if I look back at my other businesses, Shazam or TrueCar, sometimes we would sit there at the beginning of the year, you know, planning product and we'd stare at each other not necessarily knowing what to do or what would stick. Tatari is a little bit the opposite.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 6: We got more that we can chew off and we know we can monetize it all. So we we are working very hard and and so yeah, I think we know exactly what we're doing. Maybe somewhat related outside Tatari, which could be interesting for the viewer or the listener to hear is that I do believe that there is it's not a collision, but a true conversion of influencer media and TV on the horizon.

Speaker 1: Stupid fly. The fly

Speaker 2: is terrorizing us. Fly versus

Speaker 1: That's no Bruno.

Speaker 6: Because I You're

Speaker 2: doing a great job.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It was great. That's okay.

Speaker 6: I was ready for that. But right because look when as soon as ten years ago when he launched a TV advertising campaign, he had one creative. Thirty seconds. He spent a lot of time on that and emotional capital. What is that best creative? And nowadays, you'll you'll launch with 10 creators and you see which performs best. You look at influencer media, well, they create a 100 videos, toss them all out, find out which one is best Mhmm. And and that's that's the winner. Well, you can easily see how these 100 influencer videos will now, you know, into TV. So I I think there is an incredible moment on the horizon for us in terms of conversions of That's fantastic. Well,

Speaker 1: thank you.

Speaker 2: Great to meet you.

Speaker 6: Thanks for having me, guys.

Speaker 1: That's our show, folks. Leave us five stars on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Sign up for our newsletter at tbpn.com, and we will see you tomorrow at 11AM.

Speaker 2: Chuck. Love you. Goodbye.