Pope Leo XIV's AI encyclical: a Catholic writer unpacks the pope's message to Silicon Valley

I 14th's uh new letter Magnifica Humanitas which we will talk about with our next guest Christopher Hail who writes letters from Leo and is joining us right now. He's in the waiting room and we'll bring him into the TV penultim. Christopher, how are you doing?

Great yourself?

Uh great. Yeah, I was uh I was uh reflecting on Magnifica humanitas and uh I I mean I was struck by we were just talking about the enhanced games and uh po the the pope's commentary on uh transhumanism and posthumanism. Uh and I'm sure we can go into all of that, but why don't you uh start with a little bit of introduction on yourself and then take us through uh some of the key ideas or lessons that you pulled out of this letter and how you processed the the news.

Yes. Well, so my background is I worked in the two things that you're not supposed to talk about on dinner dates, religion and politics. So, um, I started my career, um, working with President Obama, um, after college. I ended up leading Catholic outreach, actually, ironically enough, for President Obama, um, during his re-election campaign. And since then, I've done various initiatives, uh, uh, um, representing consult consulting for companies um, on on faith and and in politics. And I've also done religious outreach once again for every every Democratic nominee uh, since 2012, in fact. Um but I I um also um spent a lot of time devouring consuming uh Catholicism and its intersection with faith and politics. I was a contributor columnist for Time magazine for about a decade uh during the pontificate of Pope Francis and um got invited by Time magazine and actually Newsweek to cover the conclave that elected Pope Francis this past year. Sorry, Pope Leo this past year.

Yeah. And from that I started writing a Substack and it took off. Um the substack is called letters from Leo. It's about the intersection of religion, uh American politics and technology. So uh yesterday though was holiday though was Memorial Day was kind of my Super Bowl of sorts.

Yeah, it seems like it was uh it like this particular uh news like really broke through. It felt like I don't know if it was just a slow news day. I think you mentioned that there was like bad weather in a couple media markets. Was that literal like like there was nothing else to report on or people were just inside bored and so they were reading all sorts of different stuff like what was your process on like how the actual announcement rolled out?

I was very upset and when the Vatican announced that it would come out on Memorial Day the pope is born in the United States. I just thought it was a bad day for for media. Um there was bad weather. I'm here in DC. It was rainy. In New York it was rainy and cold. So my my my religious claim is that God opened the heavens and the poor weathers to to allow the pope uh pope's uh document to be received. But yes, it took off and I think um I think what that was really the hope of Pope Leo the 14th, he really wrote this letter and this is different from how these encyclicals normally work. We could talk a little bit about that, but

normally these are very pie in the sky. This was definitely has pie in the sky elements of it, but um this was really meant for y'all for Silicon Valley. He he wrote this with builders in mind. Obviously, Christopher Olaf being there was representative of that, but he wanted this to take off in Silicon Valley and um you know yesterday morning Jack Dorsey tweeted out the entire so I think mission accomplished. I think he has woken up a lot of folks both detractors and supporters in Silicon Valley and I think um this pop this document's resonating and making a lot of noise.

Yeah. Yeah. what what about it uh do you think is resonating because uh it it is such a broad document uh and it feels like he's taking sort of a middle path. Uh I I saw it as an optimistic document. I I saw it not as not as a doomer this is AI is going to you know uh you know kill everyone and this is the end of the world like AI can be useful but there are a lot of different decisions that we need to make how AI is rolled out how we uh maintain our humanity that seemed to be the central thesis which I I liked it seemed like it seems sort of like a like a middle ground is that is that the goal and then what would you expect Silicon Valley to take away or or change based on that? So, that was the goal for sure. I think Pope Leo the 14th understands that AI is inevitable. Um, let's just on this for a second. He's he's a he's 70 years old in Pope speak. That's like a baby. He's quite young. He's the youngest pope we've had in 40 years. He's the first pope to own a cell phone. He's the first pope to send an email. He's the first pope to have an Apple Watch. So, he's ingrained um in the technological revolution in the flesh. So, he's

daily drives an Apple Watch. Yeah,

he Yeah, he has an Apple Watch. He also has a Garmin, too. So, I'm

Wow. Both

and Apple Watch. So, me and him have, you know, some sympathy there. But yes, he he technology. He plays whirl every day. And most importantly, he consumes Western media. He consumes the Western media and what's going on. So, he knows what's what's happening in the world. Um, and so I think that really informed him what he wants. Um I the Catholic Church never prescribes policies. They provide we prescribe principles. Um it's really up to the policy makers to do that. It's really up to Silicon Valley and the products they make to do that. But what he wants Silicon Valley to keep in mind is this question of the human person, whether our projects are advancing the dignity of the human person or whether they are not. Um and I think that he hears language um that concerns him quite a bit. often times he's especially concerned about any time where human responsibility is abdicated uh to to machines and there's no one that you can look back to. Um and particularly he spent a lot of his document talking about war. Obviously um um what's gone on Iran has really concerned him. He was particularly affected by that first bombing on the day one of the war that killed 168 school children um in Manav Iran and he received a letter from those children's parents. So he's deeply impacted by decisions like this and he finds that to be grotesque but he thinks it would be even more grotesque if machines were killing humans without uh human uh um decision making involved. So those are the some of the concerns he has goes on the economics as well but really the underlying underpinning concern is human responsibility. Um he wants that to be at the forefront and the dignity of the person. Now it's at the Silicon Valley what that looks like. I think that there's a significant chance that a lot of people will in Silicon Valley will view this as you know um del nonsense um duper nonsense which you as you said it isn't but I hope they take the folks seriously.

Yeah. Uh on on on the economic question um I was interested in the fact that he sort of called out that uh that GDP might not be the best development measure. Uh because I've been hearing this from all over the place. We had Doug Olaflin who uh is the president of semi analysis very deeply in the uh in in the inner workings of the AI buildout talking about how uh GDP was an inaccurate measure of certain measures of progress in terms of just economic impact of AI. Uh then you have uh Kyla Scandan has written about the vibe session this disconnect between uh the economic progress of Americans versus the perception and happiness and and we can see it right now. The economy is growing the stock market is at all-time highs yet consumer sentiment is at almost all-time lows. And so I'm I'm I I've talked to a lot of folks about this problem of like what are we measuring? What is the goal? Uh it's always been GDP. And I think it's it's it's interesting to see that the Pope is calling it out. I don't know that anyone has a really solid answer. The my my fear is that you wind up going towards like happiness optimization and then that takes you into a very dangerous territory too. Uh but but in terms of like unpacking that question of of GDP, development, progress, measures, like h how do you think the church is is reflecting on on the way we have become a very measurement-driven society broadly?

Well, let's go back. So Leo the 14th was named after his uh he took the name his own name after the his predecessor Leo the 13th who in 1891 wrote what was called rear on the barn. If you're not a Latin expert, that means on new things. And um Leo the 13th, a lot of people in the west credit him for the intellectual force behind labor unions, the intellectual force behind a 40hour work week um and weekends, etc. I think that that is a good indicator of what Leo the 14th wants as well. Uh the word leisure is sometimes I think derided in a capitalist society, but in Catholicism it's a great thing. Um, we rest on Sundays. Uh, uh, Jews rest on Fridays, Shabbat, the Sabbath. There's something about being able to limit the time of work, expanding time of recreation, of spending time with your family and loved ones. Remember the word recreation. Um, it's its root is recreate. Um, that's actually um the the the mission, if you will, of of the Catholic Church, of Christianity, is to recreate. Um, that's what Christ does in Christianity when he rises from the dead. We're looking for more moments of recreation. So, I think the Catholic dream would be, you know, to honor the 40hour work week and perhaps maybe a little less. I don't think that's possible, but to honor the 40hour work week as sacred, to honor leisure as sacred, to ensure that people only have to work one job to provide for themselves and their families. I think that's what we're looking for. We're looking for a baseline comfort that everyone can achieve in this country by working hard for 40 hours a week. There's nothing wrong with having rest.

Yeah. So, help me help me synthesize that with uh what the pope said about like the unique human challenges, the challenges that make us human. He said uh for an algorithm, an error is a flaw to be corrected. For a person, however, an error can be a catalyst for profound change. It was sort of a warning against transhumanism and this idea that every problem is to be solved. In fact, sometimes the problems are what make us human and our struggles are the value and and what brings you joy overcoming. But how how are you synthesizing those two ideas?

I think that what and so it reminds me of an author that maybe your listeners are familiar with. Uh Oliver Burkeman wrote I believe it was called I can't remember the word it was 4,000 weeks. basically a a a survival guide for mortality. And for the Catholic Church, for Christians, for people of faith in general, mortality is not something to be overcome in and of itself. It's about having a dignified life. He's very skeptical of Brian Johnson. Again, of course, name check Ryan Johnson.

Yeah.

But for Christianity, death is a part a noble part of the equation. So I think it's really hard for the pope and for the church to understand this idea that that is something to be overcome. Just to get a little theological for a second, really the the way that Christianity uh overcomes death is by dying. Uh St. Paul says that Jesus by dying destroyed our death. So death is not something we should be afraid of. It's something that is part of the journey. It's what it creates a second life for us, a life everlasting. So um more practical levels I think um we want to do anything that can dignify the human life to make it to better live to make it um um more comfortable for people but we we shouldn't be afraid of our limitations. St. Augustine famously says that my shortcomings who by the way St. Augustine's a patron of Pope Leo the 14th he says that my shortcomings actually give honor to God because what it does is it proves the need for a redeemer, a savior. Um, let me put it in more blunt terms. We can't save ourselves. I think if Pope Leo thought there was an original sin of Silicon Valley, it's that Silicon Valley at its worst uh thinks it is God or that it can recreate God.

Yeah, we see a lot of that.

Uh, how how how would you guess that he feels about people sort of uh implying that AI is is alive? There were some comments at the event yesterday saying, you know, these systems mimic uh feelings like

particularly particularly pointing out that uh Chris Ola or like Enthropic has written in the past that that they have detected like you know emotions within certain reasoning chains and then the pope said that these systems don't feel emotion in the same way. But I didn't see that much in congruity there because one is sort of a description of, you know, the flavor of a text that's being generated and the other one is like the real true emotion, I suppose. But how how did you process that? Like is there actually a divide or is there some more synthesis that can be drawn there?

Sure. I think on the first I will say that I think Leo views this as a side issue truly in terms of you really curious about the practical first and foremost. Sure. But um what you're referring to I mean uh we know anthropic gathered 15 faith leaders um in March and asked the question is Claude a child of God. The very short answer from Catholicism from Christianity at large is that um the embiable dignity of the human person is unmeasurable. A a better way of putting it people always you hear that phrase uh the um the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. It's actually a Christian idea. the wholeness of what it means to be a human cannot be measured or recreated in a lab. Um it is a theological claim. It is a a religious claim. So I think the best way the church could understand it is that you can mimic a human being 99% perhaps 100%. But the fact that it wasn't brought to birth by God um and brought to birth by a human a human person first and foremost and created if you will in a lab I think that limits the possibility of it being divine.

Jordy, what else stuck out to you?

Uh what was how do you feel the church more broadly? uh sort of you know I thought I was you know seeing some of the the the clip of of Olaf talking about you know job loss and job displacement and economic disruption. I thought um I can imagine a lot of people in the church broadly were upset to have you know a representative of Silicon Valley there uh and and who who many I I don't know if this is the view but many would feel like is part of the problem at least when you look at um you know tech CEOs or lab cos specifically when they go and do interviews and historically when they've done interviews and they're saying like, you know, this is going to we think this is going to cause, you know, mass massive uh disruptions to the labor market. People look at the person, they think, you're doing this, like why don't you stop, right? Um, and uh, you know, we we don't need to talk about um, uh, maybe why it's why it's why it's worth doing, but uh, I'm curious what the kind of broader reactions to that kind of rhetoric are around job displacement because I would say the industry is like the ind industry is becoming like quite divided. I think that everyone generally agrees that there will be uh you know some uh serious evolution of certain jobs and and roles and things like that. Uh but a lot of people in the industry believe that there will be significant job creation as new companies get built and and entirely new roles emerge even if some roles and and jobs go away entirely. And of course we saw the same thing uh in the industrial revolution itself. I'll stay on Christopher Ola's remarks. I I wanted to step back very quickly uh Christopher Ola's presence there was on the result of really a 10-year effort by the Vatican to engage with Silicon Valley. And to be very blunt um that engagement was at times rebuffed uh by some not by others. uh Christopher was there because OpenAI more than any other company in Silicon Valley took these questions seriously and took the engagement of the Vatican seriously and I know for a fact uh that February dust up with the Pentagon um um and the it's the Vatican would argue at least officials of the Vatican would argue the uh the courage that Entropic showed in that um and that uh fiasco was the final was the final straw that made them the guys or or the Vatican. But very quickly, I thought Allah's remarks struck a lot of people in Rome and here in the United States as quite honest. I appreciated him saying that like we're not driven by these questions. In fact, we are driven by innovation. We are driven by profit. It was something of a it was the opposite of a pitch, you know, and I appreciated the honesty. In some ways, I saw someone arguing is actually a confession. He went to Rome and and asked for a confession. and he said, "Look, we have these shortcomings and we need outside institutions to be I don't know if referee is the right word. That's probably too strong a word, but advocates for for a for a human- centered um development of AI."

Yeah. Um have you have you uh looked at uh uh who did we have uh who did we have on the show? Um uh Pat Gellzinger. Have you looked at any of his analyses of these different LLMs? He's benchmarked all the LLMs on uh on like how spiritual they are, how they how like how they map to uh different religious values and uh his sort of complaint is that the the LLMs are are uh overly agnostic or overly atheist in the training data perhaps because there's like a lot of Reddit in there maybe. Uh, and I'm wondering like uh if there's uh any perception of like the the the the training data like the actual products themselves uh misaligning with the views of the church.

I would say so I would say the Catholic Church of the 14th is not looking for the uh an LLM to replace a priest or religious advice. And I think that he would have concern that people would go there first quite frankly. So I don't think he's most concerned about the bias. I think he's concerned. I mean, I think obviously Pope Leo is neither left nor right, but I think a lot of his concerns do on this really attack to what the left in the United States is saying. Um, I think that there's concern about bias in profiling, uh, bias in credit scores. He talked about that. I thought that was remarkable that he's talked about credit scores and mortgages, getting access to mortgages. I thought that was profound. So, I think that is more of his concern. We actually saw another study today that said that um when you asked um some LLMs to to um they compared like when you asked them to to compare religions, the Catholic Church uh got a nice review, a glowing review, so perhaps God's Catholic or not. But I don't think Leo cares as much about that stuff. I think he concern he's concerned more about quite frankly access to resources and and judgment calls about who gets something versus not and punishment or not. Those are really what I think overwhelms. Look, this document was long and he did a lot in it. But the thing that really kind of took most of like at least a lot of part of it, bigger portion of it was war.

Yeah. uh can you help me understand uh his views on international governing bodies, international cooperation? A lot of the debates in artificial intelligence right now they get they sort of they they sort of run into uh problems where the different American companies sort of agree on something but then there's this boogeyman of international competition and if we don't do it, China will. And so we must continue to accelerate. And it feels like uh Pope Leo sort of gestured towards a view of international cooperation that could be the solution, but also there were some detractors who were worried about the negative outcomes of of that. And and I'm wondering like how you interpreted his uh his vision for international cooperation in the modern era.

Sure. I think the first thing is obviously he's an American pope. Um but he is the pope of 1.4 billion Catholics. So of course he's a globalist. Of course he um is concerned. He puts global institutions um at at the forefront. He's not unfortunately to some uh chagrin not America first on these questions. Um I think that the critics uh of Leo are going to be disappointed because he he does believe in regulatory order. Um he does believe in international norms. He does believe in in governing societies. I mean, it's mo the most conservative pope we've had in the past 60 years. Pope at the 16th was very big on on the United Nations and equivalent organizations. Now, I think some in Silicon Valley might rightly argue that's naive. Um that those things don't work. But I would say that if for a practitioner um I think that what he would ask is at least allow the question of can we have more cooperation? um can we have more agreed upon constraint constraints and can we at least engage in this in in good order um he obviously um you all are profit run companies that listening today and that that that is the reality of it but I think he wants like I think he wants everyone to take to heart um what what can we do to ensure that what we're building is um for the common good of everyone um but I I very much think that JD Vance when he went to Europe and Paris in 2025 and he said, "Let's talk about innovation more and guardrails less." I think Leo's saying, "No, let's talk about guardrails as well."

Oh, interesting. Okay. Uh, well, thank you so much for coming on the show and breaking down for us.

Yeah, great to meet you.

Anything else?

I appreciate it.

Have a great rest of your day.

Thank you. We'll talk to you soon. Goodbye.

Um, interesting. Uh, I am excited for more people in tech to digest the encyclical and see where all of this goes. Um, we have our next guest joining in just three minutes. Three minutes. We have time for one quick story. Uh, closing out the enhanced games, of course. Um, the next thing was that over the weekend, uh, Diary of a CEO host Steven Bartlett went viral for saying that