Creator economy meets Hollywood: how YouTubers are filling theaters and what comes next

guest is in the waiting room. But first, let me tell you about the New York Stock Exchange. Want to change the world, raise capital at the New York Stock Exchange.

And we are very lucky to be joined by Simeon from Carl and Samir in the TV Ultra. How are you?

Cabin in the woods.

That's right. It's been where I am.

It's been too long. I missed you.

Can you see the view?

Yes. I want to see the view of everything. This looks amazing.

Take me home. Take me home. are how off the record is this conference. Can you describe what you're actually doing?

Never. Whenever you come to Montana, you can't tell anyone.

Yeah.

I mean, I did I did just tell you I'm in Montana, but no, I'm actually geoc knows exactly where you are. Let's get over.

Let's get geo rainbow on next and we'll do you fully.

What happens in the woods stays in the woods.

I imagine I imagine you're you're there for good reason. Uh hopefully there's been someone there that has uh provided more context on a story that we've been hunting around

first. Thank you again for hosting us at your event last week. Press publish LA was amazing group of people incredible.

Uh thank you guys for coming. Also ex extremely relevant weekend you know to to to have that event. I mean we knew Back Rooms was coming out the next day but obviously we'll get into that. What a what a time for Hollywood and creators.

Yeah. Yeah. And uh yeah, it was it was funny because I was telling you uh oh yeah, the Markiplier story is so cool. And you're like, I just talked to him on on the stage. And so obviously you've been tracking this for basically your entire career. You've seen this coming. But has it felt overdue to you? Ben Thompson was taking a victory lap saying he sort of predicted this in 2017. It's been a decade and it feels like this intersection of YouTube and Hollywood, it's been very combative. But my my takeaway is that this feels like the first moment when we're seeing glimmers of real cooperation between the two separate communities and a way that that traditional Hollywood can work with YouTubers in a way that's mutually beneficial within the current system. Uh but how are you processing this? How overdue is this? Like how have you been processing the current moment? I don't know if it's overdue or if it's just happening as it's unfolding like in in real time where you know Kane when I started on YouTube Kane was 5 years old.

So like you know these are internet native filmmakers.

Yeah.

And and I think there's three reasons why it's happening right now. You know what one really important thing when we think about back rooms is back rooms you guys talked about this back room started as a 4chan image that then became like a collaborative story. I think the reality is is Gen Z IP is not legacy IP like the Mandalorian. It's IP that is collaboratively created on the internet.

So back rooms feels like something that everybody on the internet had a hand in creating, right? Or millions and millions of people on the internet had a hand in creating. So when that comes out in theaters,

I want a thing that I had a hand in. Yeah. I I I think the other thing is that cutting your teeth as an internet filmmaker um it teaches you a lot about how to earn attention. Curry Barker, the director of of Obsession, talked about this in an interview. They said, "What did YouTube teach you about directing movies?" He said, um, "The reality is when you make something for the internet, the audience is begging and you have to convince them to stay." M

and I think historically in Hollywood there's been an entitlement of hey we have George Clooney in the movie we spent a lot on marketing you're going to buy a ticket and you're just going to sit and enjoy it. Um but I think internet filmmakers know when you're making something for YouTube that like the audience can click away at any moment to something more interesting. So I better tell you a a great story that's unfolding frame by frame. Yeah. And the third thing is

third thing because I know we both we all love lists. Uh and the third thing will blow your mind by the way. uh shock you.

The third thing is that Hollywood talent is I actually think like the lynch pin in this moment in time that there's a lot of talent that's available that are like crafts people in Hollywood who have focused on specific crafts whether those are DPS or um screenwriters when

or set designers like when that is paired with the acumen of internet storytelling it's it's it's proven to be very powerful. Mhm.

So I I think there's been this like narrative of course Hollywood is dying, but I think it just looks very different now. Like we didn't know theaters were available. Like Markiplier put his movie himself. He picked up the phone and put his movie in 4600 theaters. Theaters are available and they're they're great. Um you know like Hollywood talent is available. They don't have other jobs and they're great. So I think these worlds finally coming together. Um there's there's been a lot that's happened but it's it's super exciting to see.

Yeah. Yeah, I look at it as like the last 15 years has been a story. There was collaboration happening, but it was overwhelmingly a disruption story. You look at the market cap, uh the value creation of the platforms, you know, the the YouTubes, the the Instagrams, etc. How much how much uh the explosion of enterprise value in these new platforms, the overall reduction in EV in some of these sort of like more legacy entertainment? Sure.

But now we're meeting at a point where there can both sides can say like, "Hey, we've we've now is the opportunity to figure out how to both win because clearly there's a place for both, right? We still we still want to see the I mean, I don't, but John would like to see the the blockbuster.

Jord's going to see movies. You're going to see you're going to see this is going to be the tipping point because you were never a movie guy, but once the new creators once there's a wombo film and a whole cinematic universe around Professor Cendi, you're going to be

I'll be there. But uh but yeah, so so this is the moment where I think the I I expect digital platforms to consume more and more and more and more attention. That just seems to be they're frictionless, right? Uh they're free. They're available everywhere. But now is a moment of hey both sides should be you know actively trying to do more and more stuff together.

Yeah. The reality is also it's important to note that this has all happened in horror right and this has happened once before with the Rocka Rocka brothers uh you know signing with A24 and making talk to me for about 4 million bucks that ended up making just about 100 million. These are outsized returns like Curry Barker making something for a million dollars. You know Obsession was made for about a million dollars. Focus purchased it for around 15 million and then generating $148 million not even a month in is uh absolutely insane. And so horror has historically been cheaper to produce, right? If even if you remember in the '90s the Blair Witch Project was like this cheap indie horror movie that ended up exploding. Mhm.

And I think um there's something to to explore about like the absurdity of horror and the absurdity of these movies and the absurdity of our world right now and maybe the comfort in going to see something that is more absurd than the world around you.

That's just a hypothesis I have around, you know, horror, but horror has historically been cheap to make. I think we're about to see every agent in Hollywood ping their creator talent and say, "Do you have a horror script?" because uh it is that moment that's going to happen. There will be likely an overreaction. Yeah. Um you know to this in Hollywood. But I do think like what was proven over this past month is that

uh internet native storytellers can tell a story that reaches millions of people that fills theaters um and potentially better than you know the the storytellers that

cost you in the hundreds of millions of dollars. The Mandalorian costs $265 million all in and it's made $247 million right now. So, it's like it's super hard to make a big blockbuster movie like that.

And, you know, even Markiplier making something like he made independently for under $5 million, you know, is is is pretty incredible.

Okay. Uh, talk about the state of horror on YouTube or fiction on YouTube. It's somewhat interesting to me that I would put back rooms like the the the actual content as it's horror and the movie is a direct adaptation of that. The original backroom series on YouTube is creepy, but uh Obsession Curry Barker that was comedy and Markiplier was horror but video gaming. He wasn't creating the fiction himself. And so I'm wondering about how if we will see a shift. Does this give does this basically does this give YouTubers permission to do things that are more fictionbased versus explainer videos, podcast interviews, reactions, commentary, which is like the bread and butter of most YouTube comedy as well. Um or or or or will we see more people pulling, okay, this person's talented, but horror is ROI positive, so we should just give them a crack at this, even though they're a commentary channel, as opposed to someone coming through. Okay, they've been telling love stories in a fictional context. They have a romcom series on YouTube. Let's let them make a romcom.

I I think animation will be the other space outside of horror, and it's already happening. The Amazing Digital Circus is a great example from an animation studio called Glitch. Um, you know, their first few episodes crossed half a billion views of of Amazing Digital Circus. They didn't know that was going to happen, but but it did and a community, you know, gathered around them. Um, I think horror and animation and and anything video game adjacent works really well on YouTube.

Um, I think some of the other stuff is harder. I think that stuff may emerge more on like Instagram and Tik Tok and whether it can be adapted into uh feature length stuff I think will be up up for debate. But I do think both things will happen. I think YouTube will be looked at now as a real incubator of IP and a real incubator of talent. And I think that's always been like a concept, but it was never like like I think when you meet with Hollywood execs, they're like, "Yeah, but we can't make any money off of it." Right? like, yeah, they can make money through brand deals and a couple million bucks here and there, but like we can't make real money. These movies have proved you can make real money. And so, I think that's where both things will be true. I think creators who upload to the platform and, you know, incubate IP backrooms was found by a 27-year-old, you know, uh, basically staffer, um, who was just poking around and seeing what was going on on YouTube and Reddit. I think that will be like everybody will have a young person just perusing Reddit and YouTube to go what's catching and I think if I was giving advice to those people I would say really take a hard look at Reddit and see where things are being built in real time by big communities. Another great example of this is like in the Minecraft community years and years ago the Dream SMP

Yeah.

was this like collaborative Minecraft story that had so much lore to it that a bunch of people were involved in. So I think the reason why video games is such a right place for IP to build is because it's interactive storytelling and interactive world building that a lot of people are involved in and that then more than just a like audience that

guarantees like a mobile audience cuz they're invested in it.

And then there's there's uh red versus blue with Halo and GTA RP. like there are rich sources and it's interesting there's been so many uh video game adaptation flops basically Detective Pikachu is the only one I think that has a Metacritic score above 80 Last of Us did well so it feels like we're hitting a tipping point there but you go back to the original like Doom adaptation a lot of the Resident Evil films some of them made money but none of them were critically acclaimed or really became like cultural moments in the way the video games did but if you have a creator who actually really deeply understands the community, the content, the lore, and then they build their audience on top of the IP, potentially some of these video game companies that are maybe not as internet, not as like not as linear storytelling native. If they have someone in the mix who's already sort of prevetted, this can work as a two-hour film, then they can unleash them, turn them loose. But of course, it's an IP negotiation. Is there any missing part of the stack right now to meet this moment? You have the, you know, the CAS, the talent, you know, the talent agencies that can, you know, wear a lot of different hats and help make plays. You have production companies, but is there any uh is there any part is there like financing component missing? uh maybe it's too risky to create uh some type of vehicle just to back creatorled uh films but at the same time maybe having domain expertise would be uh actually

I think the missing piece and this has been historic in our uh industry is development. I think there's a lot of assumption that creators with big audiences know what works and part of that is true but you know Kane got signed at 16 years old and A24 kind of mentored him from from the age of 17 to the age of 20. Um and I think you know 824 has a history of making great movies that are culturally relevant and knowing how to make something iconic, knowing how to make us all feel something. And so that I think should not be overlooked is the development step. Like surround me if I'm a filmmaker, surround me with people who have done this before. Help me write the script, which Kane did have a lot of help in in in screenwriting. He's looking for a collaborator for for part two. But give me the the development support to make it long lasting IP or big global IP. And I think that happened with Kane. I think Curry is like a a really great talent and uh what he's done in in comedy historically has led him here. But I think development is going to be the missing step because what's going to happen is it's going to be a very quick reaction. Let's get creators with scripts. Let's put money behind them. Let's move fast so we can also make $150 million. But you know, you have to remember this is years and years and years of these storytellers cutting their teeth and having good people around them to help them learn how to tell a good story. So I think um the financing will not be a problem because you can finance create creators know how to make stuff for cheap.

Uh last last question.

20 days Zachary made that movie, which is crazy.

Uh, somewhere out there, someone is sitting in a dark room for like 18 hours a day trying to prompt their way to

uh, a hit movie. I don't know if I don't know if the models are good enough yet.

I have a feeling they might be. And it really is about figuring out the storytelling component and piecing it all together to be cohesive. But do you have any sort of personal timeline to that kind of moment where some one individual takes you know an idea through a you know even a 30 minute film that actually gets a you know positive reaction from critics or you know something like 20 million views something like that.

I mean I you know obviously we all live in LA. I feel like I the first thing that comes to mind for me is the Spencer Pratt mayoral ads cuz those are like a lot

AI generated

ads

but I'm just saying to make

it's a glimmer they're they're much easier to make but I'm saying that's that's where we are in the timeline right like

that those ads are are clearly AI but they got shared a lot and they did do millions of views and

people just accepted them for the story that he was telling I think

and so I think um if you look at that like maybe it'll be in a year or two and I think it'll start in animation with short films cuz we'll accept that more.

But I don't know all all things. I think another element of this whole story is I do think maybe you guys feel this, maybe you don't. I think there's a bit of internet fatigue that is allowing theaters to come back.

Yeah,

I think um maybe I'm just overstepping there, but I do feel it. I personally feel the Gen Z screen time finally sort of dropping off a little bit after spiking. like running over my phone with my car on purpose to have a little bit of forced time offline.

So, like the models are really good. Like I even playing around with Gemini Omni. Obviously, we had them at at Press Publish LA, but like they're really good models. They're crazy good.

Uh you know, whether you can that'll probably happen in the next two years. We'll probably watch something like that. Uh, one somewhat related cut on this that I want your reaction to is I found it very interesting that backrooms started as a purely CGI VFX effort and uh in Blender and After Effects and it and what's interesting is there's actually a whole discord for modeling different 3D models that that are shared so the community can build around it and the assumption if you are worried about the relentless march of techn technology is like, well, of course they had everything modeled. They already had the Blender assets. Like, just hand that off to the VFX team and you got yourself a CGI movie. Put all chew edge of four on a green screen and it's done. But they didn't do that. They built 30,000 square feet of physical uh set design. And it and it's interesting that

I feel like the the CGI found up wound up being like the audition for actually building and underwriting the the the buildout of that set. And I imagine that that might happen in AI where you get someone that has some interesting idea that they were able to prompt and then they take that into a CGI that's a little more polished and then they can go build the actual sets and it's all just this extra underwriting process. But I was wondering if there was anything else that stuck out to you about the fact that they that they sort of went light on CGI when you think the fans of back rooms are they're already Blender. They love Blender. Like they're not upset about CGI. But if it was CGI, then I would be like, just make it for YouTube. Like the the reason why it's an event is because of all that. And I think 24 and you know, I don't know who

Yeah. I don't know who whose call it was, but A24 is very good at making things iconic. All the interviews of the cast are done in the back rooms. There was a DJ set from the back rooms. There was people who visited the back rooms. Like the fact that it was tactile in an event 360 experience. I like that. Yeah,

I've seen five movies, but I can tell when I can tell just based on with hardly paying any attention, I can tell when a movie is an A24 movie from like the first video that I see, the first 15 seconds of a trailer. Like there's just something

about it.

Yeah. It's the same with you guys. Like you can like there's you know countless shows that try and be TPBN but you can see TP you could I could like see something for a split second even without you guys on screen and know if it's TPBN and I think 824 has that

and that is really hard to do. It takes a lot of focus and it takes a lot of discipline, but um you know I think A24 has done it again like this is this is incredible and and pulling someone like Kane into this and beating Marty Supreme which had like a crazy marketing push

uh shows you the power of the internet.

Yeah, they overpowered the blimp.

Powerful, man. Uh the internet's powerful and and uh the communities are powerful.

Okay, last question. I'm assuming we're about to leave and I just wanted to say I'm thrilled to see ads back. I couldn't tell you uh how great this looks to me.

Uh yeah, I'll give it up for that. I'm thrilled.

It really is part of the ads. We love

It's part of the brand.

It is part of the brand. Uh do you have time for one more question?

Yeah, I got time, man. I'm just here in Montana. You You guys have to go probably doing mysterious things.

Yes. Uh next question. Where are you? And don't dodge the question. No. Uh uh I want advice for YouTubers in the context of passion projects. There's a lot of YouTubers that have grown off of a single format. They know what works, the title, the thumbnail, hook, the format, the the the structure of the video. They know they can put up a million views for every video that they do in that series, but they get sort of bored and they want to do their their passion project, their series. Uh and then they do it, they take the time off and then it just doesn't quite perform. Maybe the 200,000 true fans show up, but it's not getting the viral hooks. I I noticed this with Johnny Harris did this fantastic series on Cyprus and he went around these islands, but it just it wasn't financially the same as all the other videos that he does. And I'm wondering if there's a new format where you should sort of give YouTubers the permission to keep that special project in their back pocket and take it to a different place, take it to Hollywood where that type of project can live and flourish and go through development as opposed to trying to stuff it down the same funnel that is very optimized for a particular type of video.

I I think monetizing your passion projects is almost like an oxymoron,

right? Like if if if it's if it's a passion project, you care about it. You should not get other people involved. Like we are in the business of media. You can sell media. You can you can come up with your media product. You can sell your media product. You can sell your ad integrations into your YouTube videos. But you have something you deeply care about that you just know how to make it. You know what it should be.

I call you add a bunch of Yeah. Yeah. You or you have a financier that you trust. Yeah. You got a financier that you trust that's not going to hinder it. And again, Curry, I think the danger with these creators now is actually having too much money. Um, you know, like Curry making that for 750 is what makes it special. It's what actually gets less strings attached. Yeah.

Uh, and why it's good. Markiplier making something no strings attached. Like that's just his money. Um,

he gets to make something really special. So I think Markiplier is a great example like when you have a passion project you you ideally have the cash to do it or can get it from someone you trust who's not going to

uh intervene with it. But I think that is a danger. I think too much money can kill creativity very quickly. Um and it just becomes a product of course

uh and so I I would caution. Yeah.

I have I have one last hot take that I want your reaction to. Uh, we need to bring the host red midroll ad to the cinema.

Movies should have host red midroll because if you look at the if you look at the budgets of some of these films 750 a million dollars if if you're watching Obsession and then just at the 1 hour mark and then you get an ad for Sapphire Chase Sapphire Reserve.

Not just product placement. I want the I want the characters to sit down.

No, no, no, no, no, no. The whole point is that it's not product placement because everyone goes to product placement movies. This is this is separate. This is a host red separate from the cont. I want the characters to sit down and not just use like a Chase Sapphire card to pay. I want them to look at the camera and deliver.

I'm actually sick of seeing James Bond use the Samsung Galaxy S26. I'm I would rather just James Bond tell me about it separately and then I can go back to enjoying the movie with whatever phone he would use than whatever phone the character would normally use.

I love you guys and I love how you speak about advertising. I disagree wholeheartedly. I don't want that at all. Uh I'm happy to have the theatrical runs sponsored by someone like Chase if you have a Chase Sapphire card you get in for free and like you get perks for something if you have a Chase Sapphire card. Um, the one thing, my hot take is I want movies to be like 90 minutes and under again. I don't I I can't do the two-hour movie. Like I just cannot do it. Um, I would prefer like 90 minutes and under I got time for 2 hours feels like and I think all of our attention spans are being trained to like be way shorter than that. Even an hour and a half is like working out. Like it's hard.

Maybe go shorter. 90 second movie

vertical.

Well, John and I are John and I are going to start

20 bucks is 20 bucks. But I I you know I checked the box. I saw a movie. Yeah. I went to the theater 90 seconds and about.

That'd be good for me.

That'd be great for you. You'd be able to catch up. You'd be like, "Yeah, I've seen hundreds of movies."

Yeah. Well, we can agree to we can agree to disagree on ads. John and I will start a media buying company called Fourth Wall. And it's just focused

fourth wall.

Focus on real agency.

Breaking down the fourth wall and delivering ad impressions

during your most sacred moments of entertainment.

Yes. Yes. Yes. The next Godfather will be sponsored fully. Uh anyway, Enjoy Montana. Thank you so much for taking the time on a busy day to come chat with us.

Great to see you, dude.

Great to see you

again. Not that busy, but I appreciate it.

Okay. Activities.

Goodbye.

Let me tell you about Cisco. Critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless realtime experiences and new value

with Cisco.

Hey team, is this uh Ben, is this real?

What is real?

Did you take a screenshot of

What happened?

What is this?

Look, look in the chat.

No. No way.

He found the target.

Uh just off that one screenshot, our our intern Ben was able to find Samir's exact location.