Derek Thompson on Abundance's political traction, self-optimization culture, and the CEO of the self

Speaker 2: Derek, how you doing?

Speaker 5: Good, man. How are you guys doing?

Speaker 2: We're doing fantastically. Welcome to the show.

Speaker 5: Talking chairs. This is this is cutting edge technology. This is what I want.

Speaker 1: Yes. Do you do you care much about chairs? Are you the kind of guy who like obsesses over

Speaker 2: Are you chair maxer? Are you optimizing your ergonomic work

Speaker 1: there's no No. There's no

Speaker 2: No no nets. Support. Could be saying it's game or school.

Speaker 5: No. No. No. No. Gotta get to next draw. I'll say this. I remember I was in London

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 5: When I was 18 years old. And my best friend and I went there after we graduated from

Speaker 6: high school.

Speaker 5: And we went to, like, all the museums, and we were looking at, like, all this, like, old British shit. And I remember seeing this chair that claimed to have been made in, like my god. It was, like, May AD BC. I remember thinking in that moment, it's kinda crazy that chairs have always looked like chairs. Like, is that a stupid conclusion, or is that like like, you know, like is it like, chairs have always looked exactly like chairs. We haven't really changed the general contour of the chair. There's something about just like the shape of the body that's like, okay. Well, the chair just be like, chairs just have to look.

Speaker 1: This bean bag erasure?

Speaker 2: Is this what do you have wrong with big bean bag?

Speaker 5: I think bean bags are like a cul de sac in the history of chair innovation. Right? Like, they we went in the direction of bean bags and then we got up.

Speaker 2: We actually have a friend who has a bean bag company.

Speaker 5: From industrial standpoint, we collectively got up from the bean bag and

Speaker 1: I think I think we've

Speaker 5: tried it. The dorm room.

Speaker 1: You've seen those setups where you're basically reclined and you're in like a globe.

Speaker 2: It has the screens here and then it leans you back.

Speaker 5: That's what I'm Why why don't we have more chairs that look like circles? Right?

Speaker 2: Look like circles.

Speaker 5: That's all I'm saying. We've got chairs that look like like chairs that are shapes that aren't just this thing. That's been the shape of the chair now for thousands of years. I feel like we did that. Like, we've done chairs

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 5: That have those classic right angles. It's time to, you know

Speaker 2: This is a big time

Speaker 5: to time to

Speaker 1: reinvent the chair.

Speaker 2: Reinvent the wheel. Yes. Reinvent the wheel too. I mean, this is a big, like, stagnation thesis thing where, you know, it's like, where's the new new umbrella? Like, there's, like, we like, even even

Speaker 5: not happened. Tyler Cowen traveled to The UK, and he looked at 3,000 year old chairs.

Speaker 7: Yep.

Speaker 5: And he was like, that looks like a fucking thing I could buy from IKEA today. Yeah. Is stagnation a thing? And then suddenly it's the word in all of our lips.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Anyway, you know where's what what country is not stagnating? They clearly read abundance. It's North Korea. North Korea built 10,000 new homes in Pyongyang just last year. That's more than Los Angeles or Chicago. Did you airdrop abundance to North Korea? Like, you behind this? What's going on? Leaflet. Leaflet.

Speaker 5: There's a lot of there's a lot of conspiracy theories there about all the various people that are bankrolling abundance. I haven't heard

Speaker 2: North Korea. The North

Speaker 5: Korean dictator conspiracy theory of of of abundance. I have not spoken to Kim Jong

Speaker 1: I mean,

Speaker 5: on Yeah. And Eun, thank you. I haven't spoken to that administration.

Speaker 2: But have you looked through the have you looked through the newsletter? Have you checked your sub stack? Yeah. Have you checked your sub stack? Give it give us the link. Where can people where can people sign up if if you're a dictator in a foreign country and you wanna get the latest?

Speaker 5: I alright. Well, I know exactly what I'm doing after this thirty minutes is over.

Speaker 1: It's I'm going straight to that. You gotta turn on crypto.

Speaker 5: Search by whatever the the the sort of the surname is for North Korean website domains. I'll I'll do that immediately. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Okay. Staying on abundance more seriously, has there been any uptake from American legislators, politicians at the local, state, federal level? Because when abundance dropped, it felt like this is potentially a book that's gonna be the foundation of a new political platform and people are going to are going to be running on this and quoting from this. And I'm interested to know if there's been little pockets of action where someone's taken an idea and actually tried to implement it. Maybe it hasn't passed yet, but you can see the the gears are turning.

Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean, the way that I think I put it on on Ezra's show when we did a sort of, like, one year retrospective on abundance is, like, you know and other people can disagree in an initiative you disagree. I feel like at the level of of nomenclature and vibes, like, what one wants from a book, right, you spend a year essentially in isolation hoping that the ideas that you come up with in a dark little room end up infecting a discourse of millions of people that live outside of that room that you'll never meet. And from that standpoint, like, people talk about abundance, like, for for better or worse. Right? Like, the concept of an abundance liberal makes sense to people. We're both abundance liberals, who are conservative, who are on the socialist left. Like, there is an understanding of what the term means, and that is its own kind of mimetic success. So you have that layer of memes. Right? And that's not what you asked about. You asked about, like, real world outcomes.

Speaker 6: Mhmm.

Speaker 5: And there, I think the record is right? It's I I have to say, honestly, it's, like, it's mixed. Right? If you were looking for the individual, the elected individual who was the sort of ascendant political talent associated with abundance, It's not entirely clear to me that that person exists in a way that everybody on, say, an abundance, like, group text would name the same person. Right? Like, obviously, there's aspects of people to judge their abundancy. Gavin Newsom signed a law called the abundant and affordable homes near transit act. Like, he not only, like, signed a law that had abundance ideas in it, making it easier to build houses in downtown areas, especially around transit, making it easier to build clean energy without passing through all sorts of NEPA, you know, hopscotch efforts. He didn't really signed it. He he named it after the book. So there's there's there there are success stories like that, and there are absolutely governors like Hochul in New York who I think are not only doing abundancy things, but also, like, kind of flying under the radar in how much they're trying to press forward the policy agenda. On the one hand, like, those examples exist. And at the same time, I think that in politics, because what gets attention is not just law, it's people, there is a sense that what abundance needs is its champion on a public stage, its elected champion or presumed to be elected champion on the public stage. And I think that's where, you know, when you write a book, all you control is the book. I can't I can't write a book and make a person. And so I don't know where who that person necessarily is yet, but there's a lot of there's a lot of possibilities. And the last thing I would say is this.

Speaker 1: Why not why not why not you?

Speaker 5: There's no fucking way I'm writing for profits. No way. A couple couple of things. I'm very short. I think that especially in a telegenic age, I don't think short people can win national elections.

Speaker 1: Short about post Clav era though? You What about leg extension? Leg extension.

Speaker 5: And then I gotta look at the leg extension. Okay. See, now we're talking leg extension, and I gotta bring my wife into this. I'm not entirely sure that I wanna be, like, you know, laid low by whatever whatever kind of recovery process gets

Speaker 2: really bad when I see it.

Speaker 1: Yeah. But you settled down for abundance too. And Can you can

Speaker 2: you just

Speaker 5: pause on before I answer your question seriously, can we pause on leg extension? Do you know people who weren't in the movie materialist who got actual leg extensions We've like in the Oh.

Speaker 1: Oh. Oh. I have somebody that I suspect.

Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We actually do know someone and you can see it in their gait.

Speaker 5: How can you see it in their gait?

Speaker 2: It they walk a little

Speaker 1: bit You know it when you see it. You know it when you

Speaker 2: see it. It it doesn't look fluid. It doesn't look athletic anymore, and they're, like, four inches taller than they used to be.

Speaker 5: Do you think overall this person would say I do it all over again or would they say I fucked up my gate and I can't run? Okay.

Speaker 2: Probably. Alright. Because for a lot of lifestyles, like I mean, it's like skipping leg day. Like, it's the more extreme version of skipping leg day. It's it's only doing leg day.

Speaker 1: Permanently skip leg day, but you gain

Speaker 2: But in many in many social interactions, shoulder like like the the shape of your shoulders, like is your chest filled out? Those even like the bicep when you shake someone's hand, that's going to be more a more recognizable sign of strength and athleticism than are your are your quads in shape so that you could do a box jump. Because in a meeting, in a business context, or even at a bar, or even at a concert, like, you're not presented with an opportunity to show off your explosive leg development, but you can show off your biceps or your shoulder blades.

Speaker 1: I would almost say that in some ways, given how important clips are, podcasts, etcetera

Speaker 5: This is

Speaker 1: I There's actually an opportunity more than that more than any point in the last fifty years to become the short king president.

Speaker 5: This is James

Speaker 1: Madison James Madison was five four. Mhmm. Shortest US president.

Speaker 5: Five four and like ninety five pounds. Like, it's James Madison was like Prince. I mean, Prince was like Shaq compared to James Madison. It is crazy.

Speaker 1: And so I'm just saying like president. I'm just saying like you on a generational podcast tour Okay. You're never your podcast, you're sitting down. I I can't tell right now. You could you could tell me you were, you know, John's height and and I could believe it.

Speaker 5: Alright. Five eight. But we're we're we're gonna we're gonna shut the door on me running for president Okay. Running for any kind of public office because that is never ever ever happening. But the last thing I would say, seriously on the on the topic of of abundance in American politics is this. It's not lost on me that if you look at some of the more public elections across the country, democratic socialists are they they won mayor in New York City. There's a former slash DSA associated candidate who's in the runoff in Los Angeles. A DSA candidate just won the Democratic primary in Washington DC. Democratic socialist just won in Seattle. So there's a way in which you can say, looking across the country, like, wow. Like, socialists are really having a moment in American cities. But something interesting is happening, like, behind the scenes, which is that I've either spoken to or spoken to, like, meeting advisers for all these people. Like, I've spoken to Mamdani personally. I know people who are on his his housing council, have met with, embedded events with the mayor of Seattle. And, like, there's ways in which I think abundance is winning arguments behind the scenes even if the people that we see elected are, like, what's the headline? Democratic socialists, Soren Mamdani, like, won won the mayoral election in New York. Yeah. And so there's a way in which I think optimistically you could say abundance is pilling lots of people even if the general public wouldn't identify those people as abundant liberals.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. I think that there's been some consensus that, like, the the the aesthetically socialist has tacked to more of like the abundance agenda when elected because maybe that's just more pragmatic. Maybe there's more of an alliance there that people thought you you spar as you lead up to the election. And then when you get in, you're more pragmatic, which I think is probably good for everybody. But

Speaker 5: What's the what's the old Cuomo line? You campaign in poetry, govern in prose. Yeah. If, you know, if campaign in populism, govern in abundance turns out to be the reality for certain Democrats, that's certainly not, like, the worst and darkest possible timeline.

Speaker 2: The North Korea way. Just kidding.

Speaker 5: You're gonna endorse

Speaker 2: that. Campaign on complete authoritarian totalitarianism and run out of abundance. No. Self enhancement. America's cult of self enhancement. There's been it feels like clavicular really, like, broke through to the mainstream and introduced a little bit of this. But how have you processed the latest run of this? Because self enhancement has been going on forever. Like, what's new? What's now? What sparked your your recent essay on it? Like, why did you wanna write about it this moment in time?

Speaker 5: Well, look, it's just a lot of things are happening at once. Mhmm. A lot of things are happening at once, and I I I wanted to draw a circle around these things and try to name it. Right? You you've got the Luxmaxing phenomenon of plebicular with which, you know, there's there's a way in which I almost see that as a as a microwave that's crested. Like, clavicular, I bet, like Google Trends is not exactly on the right side of that mountain.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 5: But you you you think about, like, peptide stacking. You think about GLP ones, which are gonna go crazy when retrutide, the third generation GLP-one drug from Eli Lilly comes out. You think about the fact that TRT, testosterone replacement therapy, is going berserk, that preventative plastic surgery like Botox is getting younger and younger in terms of its average age of user. You look at the fact that according to both the American Time News Survey and gym associations, the number of people who are members of gyms is at an all time high, and the amount of time that people self report working out every week is also at its highest level in any period in American history. Like, something's clearly happening in terms of America's changed relationship with health. It's almost as if health itself, which used to live or has in various periods of American sort of cultural history, lived a little bit outside of pop culture is now becoming, like, an integral part of culture itself. And I'm really interested in this for a couple reasons. I'm interested in what drives it. I'm interested in its extremes and people like Brian Johnson who say not only do I wanna, like, live longer and be healthier, my goal is to not die at all. But I'm also interested in what it does to us, like, as people, how it changes our relationship to our bodies. So there's two observations here. One is that I have an Oura Ring right here. I like it. It's it's I think it's improved my health. It's improved my fitness, and it's helped me sleep better. But I also sometimes, like, can't help fall into this relationship with my Oura Ring where I am making decisions about my daily activity to optimize my Oura Ring scores rather than to do things that can't be measured. So if I have a really good time with a friend at 09:30PM, that can't be measured in my Oura Ring data. There's no dashboard I can look at on my phone and say I had a really good time with my friend, and he appreciated my presence. But like the Oura Ring will say, you stayed up too late, and now your HRV sucks.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 5: So I think there's ways in which sometimes these technologies, this sort of biometric dashboard we can build for ourselves, replaces the hard question of how should I live with the easy question of what should I optimize that is observable. Right? It's a little bit of good of Gurthud's law. Make number go up precisely. So that's one thing I've initiated in. But the other thing I've initiated in that I I I think might be, you know, certainly, I think I I think of your audience as being the bullseye of this. Let me get at this from a a kind of weird angle. Alfred Chandler is an historian who wrote a book called The Visible Hand about the invention of managerial capitalism in the nineteenth century. And he said what happened is the telegraph and the train created enormous information flows that couldn't be managed by eighteenth century corporations. And so we had to invent this job to manage those information flows, and the name of that job was the middle manager. And so it was the telegraph and the train and the profusion of information that was created by the the the speed of products moving around the country that created the need for managerial capitalism. In a similar way, I think biometric capitalism, as you can think of it, creates the need for individuals to essentially serve as the chief executive of the self. We are faced with all of this data about what we're doing every day, how we're sleeping, how much calories we're burning, what what our v o two max is, how much zone two time we spent training yesterday, and what role does overseeing all this information cast us in? It casts us in the role of the manager, just like in the nineteenth century. And so in a way, I think when I say our approach to health is changing things that are more complicated than just, oh, everyone's talking about health these days, I do think it changes our relationship with the body to essentially assume this role of, like, the CEO of the self. And finally, and I'll stop, it changes our relationship to leisure too. Because typically, in a sort of traditional setup, you go to work and you think about being productive, and then you leave work and you have downtime. And you don't think about downtime being productive until you can see on your dashboards exactly how you spent that downtime. How did you sleep? How did you did did you how much v o two time did you spend? Excuse me, how much zone two time did you spend during your workout? So suddenly this productivity mindset that used to be contained to work is now leaking into our downtime as well and getting us to think about, again, our bodies as this kind of machine that we are in which we are cast in the role of a CEO to optimize. I just think that's like an interesting way that we're alive today. I think it's just interesting to think about how our experience of life is different than in previous decades. And I think I think that these trends in health do make the experience of life different than it used to be.

Speaker 2: Did you see the Nat Friedman, talk, where he describes using OpenClaw and an AI agent to monitor his water intake, and it uses cameras, which apparently he has inside of his house, which is not very common. Most people have security cameras outside. He has cameras inside his house, and it saw it told him go to the go to the sink and drink a glass of water right now. He did it, and then it sent him a message saying, like, good boy, basically. And it's just very funny because in that scenario, it's like he's not even the CEO of his life anymore. He's like he's like the line worker.

Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, he's he's he he he does

Speaker 4: not want

Speaker 2: see the job of the CEO to the to the AI that then just tells him, like, you have to go to the gym. He doesn't even make the decision.

Speaker 5: I would say he's a very modern CEO. Like, surely you guys have talked with all these people about how, like, the modern executive or modern manager's manager's job is sandwiching. Right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, you give the large language model or whatever AI system it is. You are the you you're the bottom layer of the sandwich. You give the AI model an input Yeah. And then it gives you an output, and then you act in that output. Yeah. So you are the bread that is sandwiching the work of the AI model. It seems to me without talking to, you know, Nat in this particular case, that's what he's doing. He is he he decided, I'm going to design an ecological system to optimize my water intake. Yeah. He designed that system, and now he's on both sides of

Speaker 2: it. Yeah. Interesting. So in

Speaker 5: a way, I I think he he is he he is acting as a as a very modern chief executive even using this sort of AI sandwiching function.

Speaker 1: Mhmm. Yeah. I was talking yesterday or maybe the day before on the show around when I was I I got to a point when I was probably 19 or 20 that I felt I was using up all of my executive function budget on my own health. Right? I would wake I would have a protein shake. I would go to the gym for two hours. I would sauna. I would have like the perfect breakfast. And I was like cramming all of this like really high effort activity into this period before 9AM when I when when I had ultimately coming out of that had accomplished like nothing that actually moved my life forward. Right? Yeah. I I I could have just like gone around and like walked, you know, a couple miles and and it would have the same sort of impact on my life. And I think that that is that's certainly a trap that I think you could argue that a huge amount of the world is falling into right now or at least like certainly in like Los Angeles and California, New York, coastal cities where, you know, how much of your how much of your intelligence are you putting into something just to make modern life like, bearable. Right? Just to make your Mhmm. Just to make sending the five just so you have enough energy to send the five emails a day that, like, really matter that, like, you know, move your work forward.

Speaker 2: I I I I just think, like, some people are certainly in that camp, but then there's the other side of it, which is, like, the optimization is this game that is rewarding in and of itself. And so it's the it's the min maxing. The maxing is is enjoyable in the same way that you can max out stats in a video game or even in business or optimize whatever. But people enjoy these optimization games, so I'm not surprised to see that people get get the enjoyment today from optimizing a life that they never really put to use. They might have the most incredible athletic performance. Are they ever gonna go out and hunt a deer with their bare hands? No. They Yeah. But like the process of maxing was what was satisfying to them.

Speaker 5: Well, word game, I think, is apt here. And it's funny that in this case, to extend the metaphor, the game board is the body that we're playing on. The philosopher, C. T. Nguyen, who was on my show a few months ago, had this lovely line where he said, I used to think that there was no difference between a goal and a purpose in a game. But then I realized that if you're playing a board game with friends, the goal is to win, but the purpose is to have fun. Yeah. So the goal is the thing that's measurable. The purpose is the thing that might be ineffable but is more important. Right? To win but not have fun is an experience that on reflection, a minute later, an hour later, a day later, you're going to regret. And so I I do writing this essay is a part of my trying to reconcile an experience that's very much like the one Jordy described, where on the one hand I do want to optimize my health. I don't want to die early. I mean, on a personal note, both my parents died of cancers when I was in my twenties. So when, you know, they didn't live to see, to meet my wife, they didn't live to meet my sister's husband, they didn't dance at our weddings. And so I am not one of these people who looks at folks like Brian Johnson or Andrew Huberman and says this obsession with health and life extension, it's it's inhuman. It's like, no. What's inhuman, what what's what's truly terrible is the premature death that means that my daughter knows her grandmother as a photograph rather than as a grandmother. That's terrible. So this is progress. The focus on health is progress. But I do think it's just worth pointing out that this generation of personal individuated health obsession is not like other generations of health movements in American history. The prohibition movement, the temperance movement, a movement in nineteenth century in The UK that I learned about called muscular Christianity, which was basically just what it sounds like, New Testament values, the huge biceps.

Speaker 2: El Segundo. El Segundo. Those were those

Speaker 5: were movements about national change.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 5: You know, love them or hate them.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 5: They were trying to change the world. When you're playing a self optimizing game around, like, getting those aura numbers

Speaker 2: It's individual.

Speaker 5: Game you're playing is to raise the numbers for yourself, and that's that's an important distinction.

Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I do I do I do wonder if this health obsession will further reduce the birth rate.

Speaker 2: I was about to transition to that.

Speaker 1: Yes. The phone phones are clearly like cigarettes for your, you know, for your mind, you know, like they're they're they're not they're certainly they they have some utility just like a cigarette does. A cigarette Mhmm. Can kinda make you relax or a little bit focused, whatever whatever whatever it is. But it's certainly bad for you overall.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Phones to be seem to be bad for a number of reasons. And I do think it's funny, you know, like biohacking and making the number go up is like totally at odds with like parenting in so many ways. I'm on a six like, you'll never meet a parent that has children under five that's like, oh yeah, Five nights

Speaker 5: back six months old. So let's let's not even talk about my four sleep sleep sleep for the last six months. Yeah. So I had a Absolutely horrendous.

Speaker 2: But that's not the that's not the purpose.

Speaker 1: Friend of ours a friend of ours texted Yeah. A friend of ours texted us over the weekend and said, after having a kid, it's just so funny to think about single people taking a vacation to unwind. Unwind from what? Sleeping in? No, but I do but That's right. You know, when when you think of and I think back to the the Steven Bartlett viral moment where he's talking about, you know, having a couple glasses

Speaker 5: of The wine he got that knocked him out for two days? Yeah.

Speaker 1: And and just thinking like, wow, like like parenting is gonna be really rough for Yeah. For someone that gets that thrown off from you know a couple drinks because you don't really get to decide. From from midnight to 02:30AM you might be up Yeah. Like three times a week. And like people have built their lives so that that never happens. Yeah.

Speaker 5: No. I I, you know, I I remember I was interacting with some tweet from I don't know if it was Brian Johnson or someone else sort of of that and they were talking about, you know, all the various things in life, staying up a little too late, flying across time zones that had some effect on their cardiometabolic data. And I said, you know, there's a version of this approach to life that is literally anti human because imagine doing this analysis of childbirth. You know what happens when you have a one month old at home? I mean, guys clearly do because you were citing it. Your sleep goes to shit. You don't see people the same way you used to, so your social life goes down. You eat like crap. The risk of depression, anxiety, even postpartum psychosis skyrockets. Like, if you just looked at the biometric data of new parents and your only attitude in life was make number go up, you would have to conclude, you would have to conclude that having children is horrendous for the human race. But, like, life is complicated. Yeah. And the other thing these psychologists

Speaker 1: You've seen the data that shows that I think women that have kids, you know, later in their thirties are much live longer, like significantly longer.

Speaker 5: This is what I was getting. The psychologist Darby Saxby had this really interesting point in her new book, Dad Brain, where she pointed out that new parent brains tend to suffer trauma when their kids are born. But if you look at parental brains decades later, they tend to have more neural connections and they tend to be richer. And in fact, there's been research done out of Northwest University that found that so called super agers, people in their eighties and nineties that have the memory of someone in their fifties and sixties. The thing that correlates most strongly with being a superager and having great, great attentional capacity and memory, in those later years is social connection, which evolutionarily makes kind of sense. Like, maybe early memory, early language was just for gossip before we were, you know, inventing calculus and artificial intelligence. And so it would make sense that the strongest brains were the brains designed to keep track of who in the tribe was nuts and who in the tribe was helpful and who was an asshole and who was kind. And so I I think it's if you're going to think about this scientifically, if you're going to go the science route to sort of science your way toward a theory of the purpose of life, Like, pay attention to the whole body of research and don't just look at the dashboard on your phone because that's capturing such a tiny, tiny amount of the of the bigger picture.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I completely agree. We gotta do this more often. This is so much fun.

Speaker 1: Needed more time.

Speaker 2: We needed more time. But thank you so much for taking the time.

Speaker 5: I'll see you guys.

Speaker 2: Have a good luck out there. Week. Have a great weekend. Thanks. And we'll talk to you soon. Cheers. Let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business MongoDB. Don't just build AI. Own the data platform that powers it. Our next guest is the CEO of Arm Holdings, Rene Haas. His first time on the show, but we're very excited to have him on to talk about expanding the arms arms business beyond the CPU IP that they're known and loved for. Everyone's used an ARM based CPU for one thing or another, probably everything in their life. But now they're getting into chip making and designing their own chips. ARM partners have shipped more than 350,000,000,000 chips. That's so many. More than 22,000,000 developers build on the ARM platform. Rene has been with ARM since 2013. So very interested to hear about his journey over the last thirteen years. You have to imagine this is the most exciting moment in probably his entire career, certainly the ARM story, but we'll bring him into the TBPN UltraDome and ask him directly. Rene, how are you doing? Welcome to the Thank you so much for taking the time.