CAA's podcast chief: video is the major inflection point, and every new show should have a compelling reason not to be on camera

Speaker 1: But first, we have Josh Lindgren from CIA. He's the head of podcast development here to give us an update on all things. Suited up. Podcasting. Suited up. Looking good, Josh. How are you doing? Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3: I'm doing well. You guys are always looking good as well.

Speaker 2: Yes. Great to have you on the show. Great to hang in France just a couple weeks ago.

Speaker 6: That's great.

Speaker 2: Give an introduction on yourself. How and when you got into podcasts and then we'll talk about where we are now. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah. It's been a wild ride. Twelve years for me, started representing podcasts twelve years ago. I was a music agent at a boutique music agency in Seattle booking tours for indie rock bands, and I used to listen to podcasts all day while I was routing tours, and had the idea that maybe podcasts could have agents. Started cold emailing podcasters, and was surprised to discover that there was a business there for me. And very surprised in that time to discover that there wasn't really much of a business infrastructure yet. So there was a lot of opportunity, spent the next several years signing podcasters within that agency. And then in 2018, I met with 11 different agencies and ended up joining CAA, started the podcast department here, and we have a great team of people focused on podcasts. The podcast department is within our greater creators department that works with all kinds of different creators like yourselves.

Speaker 7: And

Speaker 3: it's been a really wild ride. I mean, when I got into podcasting, the estimates I've seen is that the global podcast advertising industry was worth about $45,000,000. And Owl and Co. Has put out a report that last year it was worth 9,200,000,000. So, you know, I I expected there was going to be a lot of growth in this space. It seemed like a great growth area.

Speaker 1: Thank you.

Speaker 3: I never expected this level of growth. I mean, it's been a really tremendous wild ride.

Speaker 2: I had started working with some podcasts around the same time, a little bit later, I think. You were twenty fourteen, is that? Yes. Yeah. So I I probably started working with with podcasts in like 2016. Mhmm. But even then, I would meet a show that today was probably like a $10,000,000 a year business and they would have zero revenue. But they would have this like rabid fan base and maybe they'd have one sponsor which was just someone in the audience that reached out and was like, hey, can I send you some some free stuff if if you talk about it? And they'd be like, okay. And then and then, you know, fast forward to today, those kind of properties are are, super valuable. What what are you seeing what are you seeing now? Like, what's coming down what's coming down the pipeline net net new shows? You know, we've covered a lot of the evolution of, you know, formats, how podcasting obviously interacts with with live streaming in our case, but what do you see coming down the pipeline?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, you know, it's been clear for a few years now that video is gonna be a bigger part of podcasting, and we're really seeing that come to fruition in the past year. It's like a major inflection point right now. Now to be clear, like, it's not the videos replacing audio. Both can continue to exist together. There was a recent study from Edison that said that the majority of podcast consumers do both. Sometimes they do audio, sometimes they do video, which that's my experience. I live in LA, so I have a long commute, and so I I like listening to podcasts in the car, but I also like watching podcasts at home and in the office, know. But it's created a really interesting moment in podcasting where there are some things that are fundamentally different about digital video versus digital audio. For one thing, looks really different. Right? The ways you can integrate with brands looks very different versus the audio space tends to be much more dominated by your thirty second pre rolls and your sixty second mid rolls and so on. The video space tends to have a lot more custom integration with advertisers. And it also discovery looks really different in video. Mhmm. You know, in the audio space, in terms of breaking stuff through, there's a lot more spend that is required in sort of the same way that you might market a TV show or a movie. Right? Whereas in video, there's a lot more clipping. There's really seamless integration into social media. And so if you're trying to break through with a new podcast in 2026, you should have a really strong reason why you're not a video podcast, or else you should probably have a video podcast.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Somewhat related to the video podcasting thing, a big trend out of Cannes that Colin Samir and others were talking about was that many podcasts are sort of reformulating as shows. We've done this where we think of this more as a show than a podcast because it's a live show. There's a lot else going on. Of course, it's available as a podcast. And then you also think of Subway Takes. It's Emmy nominated now and it's a it's very much a show but it's also an interview that's sort of like a podcast. And I'm wondering how you're perceiving the definitions changing, evolving, just this idea of what does it actually take to to deliver a show as opposed to just a podcast in the modern era?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm with you. I think that's the right thinking to not try and put it too much in a box. Right? Because the lines are just getting so blurry between what's a podcast, what's a TV show, what's a series of reels, right, what's a YouTube channel, and in your case a live stream. Yeah. I do think that the word podcast is a bit of utility for me just because it's sort of like I know it when I see it. Right? People talk about podcasts, people like podcasts. But I mean truly the line is really blurry. I mean, you know, I I think we talked a bit in Cannes about Oprah's podcast, which she's moved over to Amazon. Right? And I mean, Oprah is the queen of television. Right? And and this is where she's putting her energy. And you know, who's to say like if you're watching it on prime video versus if you're watching it on your phone, is it a podcast if you're watching it one place and it's a TV show if you're watching it the other? I mean, I don't know if it necessarily matters, but I think that it's an amazing time to be a media consumer because media is meeting us where we are.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Talk about the landscape of these podcast distribution deals that are happening. Pat McAfee with ESPN. Oprah, you mentioned, is doing one. There's Netflix is entering the space. Spotify went with Joe Rogan very early on. Some of these platforms just sort of get the video podcast for free, like YouTube is, you know, the default for most creators. But what are the larger companies looking for when they want to go deeper with a creator who might just not be ready to graduate from the self serve options? Or maybe they don't have a self serve option if it's linear TV or a platform like Netflix.

Speaker 3: Yeah. It's funny. I mean, a really unique marketplace Mhmm. Because as you kind of overview, the the different buyers in my space are just drastically different in terms of their business models. Okay. You know? So it's really hard to compare apples and oranges when you're looking at one of our major buyers, say, Sirius XM, which has a really significant satellite radio business. Yeah. Comparing them to Amazon, right, one of the biggest companies in the world and primarily, you know, doing ecommerce. Right? Both have drastically think different things they need out of it, let alone now you have Netflix and Hulu entering space. Right? That they have different KPIs in terms of what they're looking for. So I think part of the the challenge and the joy of representation in this space Mhmm. Is understanding who the different buyers are and what their needs are, and understanding your client, the talent, right, and what they want.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: You know, and it's it's just there's no one deal that makes sense for everyone and there's no one size fits all in podcasting.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Which I think is great ultimately because it means we can paint with different paintbrushes for different types of shows.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Can you do you feel like you can identify if somebody's gonna be a star based on their first ever episode?

Speaker 3: Well, I think that I think that taste is really important, you know. And for me, like I I will take bets on stuff that I think is fundamentally good. I mean, when I was a music agent, I was picking bands based on the bands that I liked, and I just had to hope that other people would like those bands as well at some point. And I I still believe that, you know, in podcasting. I think that there there is room for taste. There's certainly stuff that I don't represent that has that does good business, but it just wasn't right for me, and that's fine. You know, I think that as soon

Speaker 5: as

Speaker 3: you divorce as soon as you divorce your love of the medium from the business, then what's the point? Right? Like if we're if we're just here to make money, maybe we should be working in finance or in tech or something. Right?

Speaker 2: Yeah. Maybe we should all be wearing suits. There you go. You're one of Look. Look at me. I'm just here to have fun.

Speaker 1: Yeah. How are you thinking about live streaming and maybe more pure play live streaming? I'm thinking about the video game creators, the ninjas, the the shrouds, the folks who spend twelve hours, eight hours a day live streaming political commentary, business analysis, anything. It's such a different business model, such a different community, sometimes much tighter audiences but incredibly engaged. Is that a muscle you want to build? Is that something you're thinking about growing? What what trends are you seeing there generally?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think the live streaming space is is fascinating. Right? And obviously, this has been happening for a while, but I think the moment we're talking about of the merging of all the different things is really playing out for live streaming too. Yeah. For yourselves and for other shows, you mentioned political shows Yeah. Where people need real time news. Yeah. I don't think your fans wanna wait an entire week necessarily to get your take on something when it develops. It's a lot of work. I think you guys know the amount of time and energy you have to put into doing this. Right? It's it's really impressive, and I applaud you for it.

Speaker 6: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: But it really creates a lot of different opportunities. I think something else that you guys are doing really well is that you do the livestream, but you also cut this up into audio episodes and video episodes on YouTube and so on. So there's so many different ways to reach your audience. And I think as a creator today, the more that you can be flexible to meet your audience where they are, the better chances you're going to have of succeeding and breaking through.

Speaker 6: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: So I love to see what you're doing, and I think that you're on the tip of the spear right now in terms of the new type of experimentation that's happening in the streaming space.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Talk to me about how you're thinking about working with a celebrity or group of celebrities that wants to get into podcasting. It feels like there was this crossover moment where podcasting was a backwater, then it became cool. Maybe it was around COVID, but we got a whole bunch of celebrities crossing over. Some of them did extremely well, won awards. Smartlist is huge. But it feels similar to celebrities launching brands where there's still going to be a power law. It's not just it's obviously a huge advantage to have an audience already, but not every celebrity is going to have a hit podcast and vice versa. Not every podcaster is gonna work on TV or wind up starring in movies. How how are you assessing the the the reverse transition from, you know, Hollywood or TV or films coming over into the podcasting world successfully?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think there needs to be a reason to be for any given podcast. There was a level of experimentation, like you mentioned around COVID, where a lot of folks launched podcasts that maybe didn't pan out. Yeah. And I think maybe some of those had to do with the the the reason behind the podcast and the idea of the podcast, you know, wasn't as sought out. Right? I think a good example of it working would be Julie Lee Dreyfus' wiser than me, where that was driven by her desire to hear from older women that are largely ignored in our culture. Mhmm. Right? So she had a reason that she wanted to make it. It wasn't like she would just come into the space because, you know, some enterprising agent myself told her that she should make a podcast and she could make money. Right? She was there for a different reason. The things I see succeeding have that reason behind them. Mean, you mentioned Smartlist. Right? Another COVID, you know, project that that began of COVID, and it came together because the three of them wanted to hang out.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Right? And they wanted to create something for people who were locked at home. Yeah. You know? And it that that like genuine friendship between them is the basic building block of what it is, you know? So a lot of what I do when I talk to celebrities about podcasting is try and get to the core of what it is that they want to create and what their purpose is for coming. And then they can craft all the business and everything else around that, like, central seed of an idea.

Speaker 1: Mhmm. What's the secret to a successful podcast tour? I mean, back to Smartlist, I feel like they've been extremely successful at engaging the community off of the Internet, which is interesting because they started off the Internet, they went to the Internet, then they go back into the live tour. But what what what makes for a successful podcast tour?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that your relationship with your audience is so strong in podcasting, and it depends a little bit by format. You know, I think the level of engagement for more format driven shows will maybe be a little bit less than more personality driven shows. But something that I saw really early on getting into this space and coming from a touring background, I was booking tours for podcasts. And, you know, one of the first live podcasts that I went to was early client of mine, Stuff You Should Know, which I assigned by emailing info at Stuff You Should Know.

Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

Speaker 3: It was a really different time. But then I I went and saw them do a show in Vancouver, and they had a q and a at the end of the show. People were getting up to the microphone, and this this woman gets up to the microphone. She's like 22, looks normal and nice. As soon as she gets on the mic, she's bawling because she is talking to Josh and Chuck from Stuff You Should Know, and it was a real like light bulb moment for me. Right? Because that's a educational podcast. Right? But for her, she was explaining on the microphone that they spend so much time in her ears that she has this relationship with them, and it was like she was finally meeting these friends that she's had for so long. And I think that's that's when you get people who are not just willing to buy a ticket, but to travel four states over to make it to a live show. And, you know, we we look at data for download performance in a market before and after a live show, and we see, you know, in some cases, like a niche show can have a really solid touring business because they're converting like 50% of their listeners in the market are turning out for these live shows. And we've done analysis too where we look at zip codes of of ticket buyers, and the the number of people who are traveling long distances to come to these is is pretty incredible. So, you know, I think that's the key thing is if you have that relationship with your audience, if you let your personality be a part of the podcast, people are gonna wanna come out for that.

Speaker 1: Mhmm. How are you thinking about international? Just the like like the puzzle? Because if your business is if your podcast is aligned to specific products that are maybe only sold in The United States, it can be hard to monetize. You might need to go on a tour. An international tour can be more expensive. At the same time, I'm sure from musicians that you've worked with, you've solved the puzzle of what an international world tour looks like that is successful. So how do you think, like, the the the the future eras tour of the podcasting world will Yeah. Play

Speaker 3: I think that the international touring is

Speaker 4: I mean,

Speaker 3: you have

Speaker 1: It's it feels like it's early. Am I right in that, or am I just not aware of there was already the Era's tour of podcasting and, like, Smartlisted it, and I just wasn't paying attention to their their trip to Japan or something.

Speaker 3: I would say there's only one Era's tour, but you but the you are seeing a bit of international touring happening already. I mean, you know, many years ago, we sent stuff you should know to Australia, and it was such a wildly successful tour. Yeah. You see a lot of American podcasts do in The UK

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 3: A little bit in Europe. I mean, one of the challenges is when you're crossing over into markets that are primarily not English language speaking markets where you might have listeners, but you might have a different type of relationship with them. That can be a real challenge, but especially going from one English language market to the next, it can really work.

Speaker 6: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: But you do see audiences becoming really segmented between different markets.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: If you look on any given day at the charts in The UK and the charts in The US, they're probably gonna look pretty different. There's gonna be crossover for sure.

Speaker 6: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: But a lot

Speaker 4: of different stuff

Speaker 3: changes out even though we speak the same language and understand each other very well. Yeah. There's just different sensibilities from one market to the next, you know. But I mean, you mentioned advertisers, right, The US ad market is is a big leader in podcasting, right? Because this is a consumer that a lot of brands want to reach. And so, know, as we've built our business internationally and signed podcasters from all over the world, you know, there's still at this point a real value into having a foothold in The United States in terms of reaching audience. I think one of the most exciting feature change areas in podcasting is going to be some seeing more of these markets come alive.

Speaker 6: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: And if I was, you know, an investor looking for a place to to start up, I would be looking at India right now, for instance, you know. Right? Whereas there's just a little bit less saturation and more opportunity for extreme growth. Australia, I think, is a really interesting market. I made it out to Sydney last year for South by Southwest Sydney, and it reminded me a lot of the podcast market in The US ten years ago, twelve years ago when I got started. And so I think there's a lot more that's going to come online for those markets as the brands locally and the advertisers in those areas start to realize that this is a great way to spend money and to reach audience. But it was an education process in The US to get brands to to spend here and trust this market. Yeah. And it'll be an education process in a market by market basis.

Speaker 1: Last question. How are you talking to or I don't even know if you can talk about this, folks who work for large media companies, they have been around for the pivot to video. We're gonna put you on camera. We're gonna set you up with a podcast. They build an audience, and they're ready to venture out on their own. We've had Ashley Vance on this show, Joanna Stern, Eric Newcomer. There's been a whole host of these folks who sort of grew audiences and learned the skills of content creation, whether it's Advice or Vox or any of these platforms. And then they go independent. If you're having a conversation with them, what how are you talking to them about why they might want to do that or why they might not want to do that?

Speaker 3: Yeah. So every podcaster, every creator is an entrepreneur Yeah. Right, Which can be really scary if you're used to getting a paycheck every single, you know, biweekly from a big media company. Mhmm. But it's high risk, high reward. Right? Because once you launch your own show, you own that audience, and no longer are you at the whims of, you know, the executives that you work for. Yeah. And actually capturing a smaller audience can be more lucrative for you because you're capturing more of the revenue

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: That that audience drives. Right? This is a conversation I have with folks all the time who are legacy media companies trying to decide what their next steps look like. Especially in this really fast changing landscape where some folks are forced out necessarily when they necessarily want to make that choice right away. Yeah. So it can be a really scary transition. I'm very empathetic for people who are going through it. I don't begrudge anyone who decides that they want to keep working in legacy media. I don't think that it's doom and gloom for legacy media. Right? I think that there's still room for great journalists on television and on radio, print journalists and so on. But for folks who are entrepreneurial and want to build their own thing and own their audience, there's incredible upside and opportunity.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It's exciting times. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come chat with

Speaker 2: Great to have you on.

Speaker 1: Have a great rest

Speaker 3: of so much for having me.

Speaker 2: The godfather of podcasting.

Speaker 1: It's true. It's true. Will talk to you later. Have a good one.