Alexis Ohanian on sports as the ultimate anti-AI bet, live events boom, and the dark side of sports betting

Speaker 2: fog horn for me. Well, we

Speaker 1: have Alexis Ohanian from seven seven six. He's the founder and GP with us here in the TBPN UltraDome. Alexis, how are doing? Welcome to the show.

Speaker 4: Doing very well, gentlemen. I'm glad glad that guy's okay. You know, I saw actually, if you find yourself in that situation, apparently, if you run I think bison can't go laterally, so you wanna kinda

Speaker 7: see I

Speaker 1: thought that was crocodiles and alligators you wanna zigzag. Is zigzag just fart? Oh, that's a fart.

Speaker 4: I I think that's something Floridians tell

Speaker 2: tourists. Okay. You gotta be, like, NFL mode. Yeah. Just running routes

Speaker 1: on the Yes. That's the move. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: Side step on. Good to know. Good to know.

Speaker 1: Absolutely wild. How is your summer going? Are you engrossed in World Cup? What what what's your summer been like? Give me a little recap.

Speaker 4: Ironically ironically, I have spent most of this World Cup actually in Europe watching the matches back in America Okay. Like two, three in the morning. Yeah. I'm more of, you know, I'm more of a women's sports fan.

Speaker 1: Of course.

Speaker 4: Of course. It's been great it's been great watching. The American men showed up in a big way. Obviously, you know, it didn't get as far as any of us, you know, we would have wanted to see a title. But very happy for the American men made it to the 16, and I don't know who to root for now. I guess technically England Yeah. Given my Chelsea women's connection. Okay. We'll see.

Speaker 1: Here you go. We'll see how it goes. Yeah. I want your current thesis on premier in real life events, maybe in the age of AI, maybe there's some other boom happening, but I have some stats here that are crazy that were on the timeline from Adam Miller. UFC, it sold for $4,000,000,000 in 2016, worth $15,000,000,000 today. F one revenue is up a 115% since 2017. Team values are up Mhmm. Two seventy six. FIFA World Cup viewership is on track to to pass twenty twenty two's 5,000,000,000. Revenue is up 56%. NBA media rights tripled in a decade. NFL, 110,000,000,000 in media rights through 2033. You

Speaker 4: know what?

Speaker 1: Broadway is up. Live comedy VC, more.

Speaker 2: What do call them? Rocks. 600,000,000.

Speaker 1: High Rocks went from 650 athletes in 2017 to 1,500,000. World music tours, top 100 tours grossed 8,900,000,000. How are you thinking about this? Is this an opportunity as a as a fan or as an investor or as a businessman? Like, what what what's your overall thinking on live events in the future?

Speaker 4: Look. Like, last time I was on here, I think I was gassing up my track and field league

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 4: With the Olympics there, Athlos, every year, not just every four years. I've been obviously very early in in sparking the women's sports movement, starting Angel City and the investment there. But I you can roll the tape. There is footage from, I think, two and a half years ago at Cannes Lion where I call sports the ultimate anti AI bet. Wow. And I think just two weeks ago, JPMorgan Chase is on stage saying the same thing. So what we mapped out at seven seven six three years ago, right after ChatGPT

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: Was basically, we know it's gonna get really good at writing, and then it's gonna get really good at writing code. And then, you know, once actually it was after Dali, I was like, okay. Even this first version's janky

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: But moving pictures are just one step away from static pictures. Yeah. So in the world of entertainment, right, the pillars of entertainment, you have music industry, you have movie, Hollywood, and you have sports. What will remain unchanged and durable in the age of AI even when you can have a pixel perfect highlight

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 4: Of Mbappe scoring a goal, it will do nothing for the soul Yeah. Because it never actually happened. Yeah. Human experience is the reason why it's valuable. And I you know, Josh Kushner, who's a friend and obviously an incredibly successful investor, his first investment from Thrive Eternal, great name by the way, was San Francisco baseball giants. Yep. Like like, we're now seeing a moment where the smartest folks in venture capital realizing this is not just a trophy asset. And what what we've been privileged to see now for three, four, five, six years is under the hood of these organizations, guys, these the best sports teams in the world, the best sports leagues in the world are run like a tech company in, the mid aughts. They are devoid of modern technology. They're Yeah.

Speaker 2: I've asked every time an athlete comes on here, I'm expecting them to have some like, you know, basically performance super intelligent Yeah. Like, oh, I have

Speaker 1: a database with every lift I've done. It tells me exactly what to lift and what where to ice and it's like, no, I just have a guy that, you know, tells me if it hurts, I walk it off or something.

Speaker 4: And and it's also on the business side of the house. Right? And so it's it's even if you even asking a question like, what CRM do you use? Like, again, you're gonna get some weird looks and, like, maybe it's Salesforce or, oh, we've been trying this new thing called Hub HubSpot.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: And and so all across the stack, there is tremendous opportunity for efficiency for software. And so the smart money we're we're we're investing, and they're also figuring out how to invest in the tools that'll make these even more profitable enterprises.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 4: And I'm fired up because I also I get I I spend all of my time at seven seven six either investing in the technology of the future that is gonna accelerate. So we all had Philip on here, our guy from Star Cloud. Right? Data centers in space. Crazy ambitious infrastructure play.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: Or the other end of the barbell of everything I know will be left. Yeah. And so a consumer electronics company like Mod Retro, let software keep getting cheaper to make. We still need to have physical things to play those games. We should make them closer to or in America. And so that's a trend that I know is gonna continue to grow. And so I I I really see the world through those two sides of the barbell, either rapidly accelerating the world or everything that I know is still gonna be left and matter even more. And it's funny you mentioned Broadway. Yeah. Pulled the tweet. I think it was a year and a half ago. I'm still trying to find the venture backed model for it, but my bet was because anyone will be able to sort of dream up their version of iron man where they're iron man and obviously with making sure daddy Disney gets their check. But like, you're gonna have this dispersion of culture and like acting at the end of the day is way more normal for our species in person than it is going into a dark theater and watching it on screen.

Speaker 1: Well, actually found tweet. Found the tweet. Bonus hot take. I think we'll see live theater make a comeback in the next ten years and you said this July 7. Yeah.

Speaker 2: I got one for you. Yeah. Think you should incubate a robot circus. An event that you can go to and and I I think in about two years, you will have robots capable of feats that will be wildly impressive.

Speaker 1: You

Speaker 2: can imagine like a drone show that where the drones fly up to within, you know, a foot from your face. You've got humanoids going going crazy.

Speaker 4: Canadians right now running Cirque du Soleil who are very mad. I think I will I'll give you this.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It's robot Cirque du Soleil.

Speaker 4: I think there is so part of the why, at least for me with those things, and maybe this is just exposing myself as a bad person, is the fact that you're like again, you're not hoping anyone gets hurt, but it's this anxiety of like, my oh god, what's gonna happen? Like, is this person gonna survive this death defying

Speaker 1: act? And

Speaker 2: Yeah. So you need to make the the the person viewing it feel like they're gonna die.

Speaker 1: That's the thrill. I see some It's a drone. It's a

Speaker 2: drone that flies. It's a you're strapped in you're strapped into like a, you know, like a roller coaster seat and the drone flies like two feet from your face. Know?

Speaker 1: Can I can take that?

Speaker 4: I do think I'm I'm fond of saying that like no one will pay money to watch like robots play Or imagine golf is an easy one. No one's gonna wanna watch a Ryder Cup where, you know, you get 18 hole in ones Yeah. Against another 18 hole in ones. But but there are some sports you know, we've seen battle bots. Right? There there's there's versions of that with, like, gladiator sort of robots fighting to death. There's probably a version of drone racing

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: That allows oh, yeah. I mean, you play Twisted Metal, but allows weapons

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Drones. Right? There's there there are there are new sports that are, like, that are actually entirely robotic, but that are levels up of American one or human ones that we don't want humans doing. Mhmm. But but I had not considered making it an experience for the fans.

Speaker 1: Okay. So really quickly. So as live events are growing, I feel like a lot of collectibles come out of the It's live like the game ball, the the the card of the player who played in the live event and you're sort of there's like this chain of custody, chain of authenticity. This thing happened. This human was great at this thing. There was lore. You could have gone and saw it with your own eyes and now there's a card that commemorates it. What's going on in the collectible space? Is there as much of a boom there? What do you expect happening over the next couple of years and what are you doing specifically?

Speaker 4: Well, you know, a few years back, I created the when I heard trading cards were coming back, I quietly amassed the largest collection ever of my wife's cards just because I didn't want them ending up in some other collector's house. I wanted my kids to have that.

Speaker 2: You're like no one's gonna make money on these cards but me.

Speaker 1: No. These are friendly areas. No. Sorry. No. They're gonna stay in the family forever. No. No. But you also you drive up the price by by taking all of those cards into the treasury. Yeah. And so everyone's like, the the the lore is growing. Yes. It's And Many knock on effects.

Speaker 4: I, and then I was the lead investor in Alt, so marketplace, which just had they just set a record for an all time kaboom. Was like a $1,400,000 for a one of one Wemby. Wow. What's

Speaker 2: a kaboom?

Speaker 4: Real dollars. So it's a it is a a brand within the universe of trading cards that was inspired by, like, nineties era comics. Okay. And so it's your favorite players, but sort of restylized as, like, cartoons, almost like a comic book inspired art.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: And for whatever reason, it struck a nerve with the culture. And and so you have these record auctions happening. A big fan of collectible video games, match worn, you know, athletic apparel. All these things I think are culture assets for us. Like, having an 86 FLIR Jordan rookie card on my desk in mint condition is a better sort of more satisfying flex for me than having, a Warhol. No offense to Warhol, but I think the energy of contemporary art. Yeah. I think this is our contemporary art, especially for a generation of us who grew grew up collecting or idolizing. And and now that, you know, Topps and others have gotten much smarter. Oh, by the way, bought a trading card company.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Explain that.

Speaker 4: I mean, is this

Speaker 2: normal firm?

Speaker 1: Is it within the firm? Yeah. Like, interesting strategy.

Speaker 4: When you're the biggest LP in the VC firm, you get to kinda do what you wanna do. We have amazing institutional LPs. Don't get me wrong, but, like, I I sign up every deal we do at seven seven six. I'm when I'm hitting send. Yeah. I'm thinking of my kid's inheritance. Right? It this is my money more than anyone else's. Totally. And so or theirs, really. And so with trading cards, this was a a modest sized company that was specializing in college sports. Obviously, NIL has changed the landscape of that. And this long tail of college athletes, a guy like Mendoza gets a card deal with us, and he doesn't just get his rookie card. His left tackle gets a card. So the guy protecting his ass, who may never get to play in the NFL, may never get a card. Mhmm. He's getting a card with on it. And, you know, I love the fact, we actually have just as many we have more women college athlete cards in the last year than every other card company combined. So there's a long tail there. University of Nebraska women's volleyball sells more cards than the men's football team.

Speaker 1: Woah. And

Speaker 4: so it's focused on a part of sports that I obviously love. I think college is obviously a huge and booming opportunity, and these companies all need software now. They all have an opportunity to

Speaker 2: And do any of the athletes turn it down?

Speaker 4: No. It's I mean, the the amazing thing is we're playing at a level where, like, these some of these guys are making so much money in NIL deals

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: That the kind of deal we're striking with them is

Speaker 2: not Like $1,015,000,000?

Speaker 4: No. Well, no. That's the amount that they're making all year. That's not what I'm paying them.

Speaker 7: Yeah.

Speaker 4: No. No. No. No. They they these card deals are still pretty small ball.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 4: And so relative to the deals they're getting from big brands. And what's dope is, you know, most of these guys are thinking big picture, And if they make a little less money doing it on deal, but every other guy on their team is getting a card Oh, sure. They're not mad. They're not mad. Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: Yeah. The athletic directors love it because we're also working with the women athletes just as much as we are with the men. So Yeah. That's the focus. And and I'm but I'm inspired by so much of the motion and creativity happening here.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: Even Jensen Wong's leather jacket going on sale, I think it's only the second one that's been auctioned. These are cultural moments, and I know we live in a weird little myopic tech world

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 4: But like Yeah. Once it happens, I wanna bid on. Right?

Speaker 2: Have you bid yet? You know you know the the Jensen jacket is

Speaker 4: myself now.

Speaker 2: The you know the Jensen jacket's going to a good cause. It's our friend Justin Mares inflection grants. So all the money all the proceeds are gonna be given to to, you know, founders, no strings attached, no equity, love the game. How how much do you think the boom in live events is driven by social media and flexing like these are the, you know, very exclusive. Basically, you know, you can call them like one of 10,000 assets. Right? Or they're these like Yep. Ephemeral, you're buying a ticket but it's also, you know, the Yeah. There was a very viral post over the weekend.

Speaker 1: Is almost like the next bull case for live events and in fact Mhmm. The current boom is driven more just by people seeing cool events happening on social media and then also just feeling isolated. They're spending a lot of time on their phone. They're like, I got to get out of here. I got I should go to that live event. And everything else outside of the live event is free, so I'll spend more money on the live event because I can basically watch every music video ever created for free on YouTube, etcetera. And I I agree with you that the AI thing is is gonna be big, but it doesn't feel like the current driver.

Speaker 4: I look. I don't disagree, and I would I would also think of it as sort of just like that k shape happening in the economy. I think you're gonna see right. One of the things the the the Wimbledon ticket Yeah. Is gonna continue to be even more exclusive, even more scarce because there's just a finite amount of access to it. Right? But I also wouldn't discount growth on the other end, which is I think a bigger culture shift. In building Aflos, one of the things that's been really eye opening for me is we partner with run clubs in order to build our fan base. Now just because you run doesn't necessarily mean you're a fan of track and field, but it's very easy to get you to be one because these are the best in the world doing what you like doing for fun. The average soccer fan doesn't play soccer very often. Right? And so by learning about run clubs the last two years, not firsthand, but I've learned that it is a way for Gen Z to push back on the toxicity of online dating culture. It is a way to push back and almost break the sort of jaded narrative of, like, online life to actually, like, meet with people, decide if you wanna spend more time with them or not, again, platonically or romantically. And I think there's also a culture shift happening among gen z's in particular who have kinda lived through the dark parts of social and have just said fuck the algorithm. I think not all of them, but I'd say, like, a material majority and said, I crave IRL. And it doesn't cost a Wimbledon ticket to go join a run club, but it's an experience that is verifiably human, which is harder and harder on this dead Internet. And and it's a chance to get laid. It's a chance to meet someone who could be a lifelong friend. Like, there's I I think the that part of the barbell that gets me excited is that side of, like, the things we've done as a species way longer than this modern age of the last couple hundred years. And I think those food I mean, this is it's such a dumb thing, but, like, I I think if if we get the AI utopia we all want, right, this gets cheaper and easier and better to make, and it's healthier for you. It's more accessible to more people. Are There so many things that are still gonna be invaluable that will still give us, and I hope give us even more of a purpose to live, whether it's getting food together or going for a run together, shouting at a soccer game or screaming with our favorite singer, or laughing at a stand up comedian's jokes. Like, I actually I'm I'm very bullish on humanity for if this goes right

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 4: Us actually having even more appreciation for the shit that, like, a world that our great great grandparents would actually really recognize as being like the sort of fundamental parts of humanity.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And I I How did you process given, you know, given your work with Athlos, how did you process the enhanced games? Oh. It felt like to to me to me it was like one of those ideas that that sounded so cool in theory. Mhmm. But then as I was watching it, I realized like how much of the Olympics is about the pain and the glory and the sacrifice and representing your country and like the every four years dynamic and just how different a gold and a silver are even though they're right next to each other on the podium.

Speaker 5: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: And so when I was watching it, it just felt like drinking a flat soda, you know, where it's like you got a little bit of the taste but it doesn't hit. And Yeah. Curious how you how you felt.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Look. I and I would not I I I am I know those guys. I am happy they did it in the sense that I do think those regulatory bodies, WADA and some of these others, are very, very antiquated with how they think about usage and testing. And even you you hear about athletes getting suspended for marijuana. Like like, things where it's like,

Speaker 1: is this really in the

Speaker 4: best interest of preserving the sport? Yeah. And I do think guys like Brian Johnson and others who are human guinea pigs for things that could benefit all of us, a great benefit to society. Right? Where this one rubbed me the wrong way or at least where I knew I wasn't gonna wanna be party to it was because I mean, the thing you nailed, obviously, having a wildly successful professional athlete for a wife who is also accused for so much of her career of some bullshit doping. Right? I the idea of a league that is leaning so heavily into everyone dopes is just anathema to what I really believe sport is about. But I'm still look. I still think like I said, I think it's a I I think it's important to move the narrative forward of, like, what actually should be approved and not. And I also think, hopefully, it gives people more of an appreciation, like you said, for the fact these athletes sacrifice. And probably, it's a similar narrative that we had when I found out how little money most Olympic athletes actually make. Like, before Aflos, the top prize for a track and field athlete was $30,000 in a season. They would win the championship that year, be the fastest man winning in their race, man only. It was $30.

Speaker 1: That's a win win. That's not a win. Trombone. Yeah. There you go. There is one.

Speaker 4: And and so we doubled it just because And

Speaker 1: now it's a chain. And then we've I think we

Speaker 4: have we have two point we have over 2,100,000 in prize money this year for two races Yeah. In New York and we're giving equity. Like like, these are all things, and I think the enhanced games prize money is also a helpful way to push that conversation forward of saying, hey. These Olympic athletes should actually they're worth more. Yeah. And, and so I think that's good for them. But, yeah, like I said, I couldn't I couldn't personally get behind it, for those reasons.

Speaker 5: I don't know.

Speaker 2: How are you last question since we're out of time. Mhmm. How are you processing just the explosion of sports betting as I was and and kind of how it's driving sports and live events and providing a lot of funding, but at the same time, I was watching, you know, watching the the McGregor fight, if you could call it that, on Saturday. And like, they don't even do betting exclusives anymore. It's every single ad is for a different sports book or prediction market. Mhmm. And and and so yeah, it's like I I've never had like the sports betting bug.

Speaker 7: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: I I've at points been like, gotta give this a good shot. Like, it seems like a lot of people really like doing this. I like it. I gave it a shot. I I

Speaker 1: watched you I watched you lose $200 and it was one of the most entertaining things that Yeah. So it

Speaker 2: was wildly entertaining. It was wildly entertaining for John. For me, I was like, that's it. Maybe

Speaker 1: He's down to his last 4¢. Let's see what he'll do now. Yeah. Will he make a play? Did get

Speaker 2: 4¢ and then I was like, I'm gonna make it all back in one trade and that's a good man. A hell

Speaker 4: of a parlay. Like 20 different legs. Yeah. I I, look. I one of the things we've said around here is we wanna invest in things that we know can make, you know, generational size returns, but also be things we're proud to tell our kids about. And so I have again, I have no beef with betting or gambling.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: I think I think in models where the house always wins, that does not stir my cocoa because now you're just you're just weaponizing sort of, slot machine tactics to bring someone back who probably shouldn't be investing that next dollar or gambling that next dollar. I think prediction markets are unique in that it is peer to peer, and I I feel less distaste around, hey. Someone made a better decision than you did today.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 4: Right? That feels more like any market. But I do think overall, the worst toxicity that I've seen on the Internet when I when I get and it's it's I mean, was jarring when I first started dating my wife. The worst toxicity that I would get was from psychopathic racists on the Internet, and it was tied to sports betting.

Speaker 1: Woah. Yeah.

Speaker 4: And and so it's and tennis is a unique sport where there's actually always been a lot of sports betting women's sport, where there's actually always been a lot of energy around it. And so even just anecdotally, it feels like athletes carry a disproportionate weight from it. And it might be easy to say, well, don't don't check social media. But like, you I mean, we all get our It's hard. We all get our hate. Yeah. But like, if you're an athlete, like, you're literally just trying to do your job every day in front of everyone. We don't have to our board meetings are not broadcast to the world. We don't you you already have to live every workday in front of every person on the planet. And if if a downside of a shadow of sports betting and its rampant growth is even more toxicity for the athletes, like, feels bad. And then there's the

Speaker 2: it was like Holland's teammate who, you know Yes. Had a clear had a clear should have passed it. But he's in the moment, you know. He's he's gonna be a hero. And and yeah, he had more you know, he just lost the World Cup, you know, not or not lost, but you know, lost in the in the quarters and he had like, you know, double the amount of comments as likes on on his last post. Yeah. Most of almost all of them saying like

Speaker 1: yeah. It's just very different when you're a fan, you're passionate about a team. Yes. You are upset about your favorite player Yeah. Or Yeah. But it's different when people have money on the line, they are more incentivized to go crazy online and and send the aggressive message, which is never fun.

Speaker 2: Never

Speaker 4: fun. And I and I and I also just think from a health standpoint of our society, right, we know young men are more likely right? We're risk takers biologically, and that's a great thing when it pushes us to go take an entrepreneurial risk. It is a less great thing when we invest our last 100 on a parlay that's never gonna pay off, and then it leads us into a cycle of addiction and problems. And so I I hope we can have a good conversation as a society about this. I know we're in a very, like, let's say, deregulatory time in America right now.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: And I hope when that switches, I hope it doesn't lead to a hyperregulatory period.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: But, like, I hope we can have a reasonable conversation because I also I the the part that worries me the most is we know we're gonna continue to see more growth and acceleration for folks who are connected and plugged in, that's gonna be a great thing. It's gonna give us lots of good stuff. If the folks who aren't feel even more disenfranchised and even more left out that there's this almost like, and you see parts of it flare up in crypto for sure. Right? You see this sort of dystopian world of people willing to do anything to make a buck. That that that from a societal standpoint makes me very, very, very uneasy. And and I I like, it's it's becoming more and more obvious how big a role betting is, in particular sports betting is. And I just feel like we haven't had the conversation, and I don't know if we have the folks equipped to have the right one.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's starting. It's starting. There's Well,

Speaker 2: I think Saturday's I think Saturday's event could be somewhat of a turning point with the UFC because Mhmm. You know, there's some some potential there's an idea that maybe there was people that knew there was a major injury going into that and there was too much money on

Speaker 1: the line to I think we will have a national conversation about this. I'll I'll give you 10 to one odds that it happens this year by the end of the year.

Speaker 4: But you guys are good.

Speaker 1: I also I also heard an interesting stat that ninety nine percent of gamblers quit right before they hit it big. If that really goes national and people embrace the the the statistic, I mean, it's just math like, you know. Anyway.

Speaker 2: Had a we had a bad running shoe that this this interview would go over because we always love talking

Speaker 1: to you. I'm

Speaker 4: sorry it's been so long.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We'll do it again soon.

Speaker 2: Great to

Speaker 1: see you.

Speaker 4: And congratulations. Thank I congratulate you all on Twitter but

Speaker 1: congrats on

Speaker 4: the exit. I will still point out as soon as I saw you know. I know.

Speaker 1: I I need to apologize. I need to apologize. We're like, yeah, we're a bunch of we're bunch of podcast. Why would you want

Speaker 5: to invest in this?

Speaker 2: You you saw.

Speaker 1: I saw the potential.

Speaker 2: You saw it.

Speaker 4: Anyway, you guys deserve every bit of you.

Speaker 1: I appreciate Have a great rest of your day. We'll talk to you soon. Let me tell you about Cisco. Critical infrastructure for the AI era. Unlock seamless real time experiences and new value with Cisco.