Light Phone launches the Light Flip, a $299 minimalist flip phone for users fleeing the attention economy

Speaker 6: I'm ready to say that.

Speaker 2: Making it look easy.

Speaker 1: We'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 2: Great to

Speaker 1: see you, dude. Have a good one. Let me tell you about MongoDB. What's the only thing faster than the AI market? Your business on MongoDB. Don't just build AI. Own the data platform that powers it. Our next guest is Kaiwei Tang from Light Phone, the cofounder and CEO. How are doing?

Speaker 3: Hey, doing alright. Thanks for having me.

Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. Great to have you. We were debating this earlier. Do you so first, let's start with an introduction, and then I have a bunch of questions about the correct terminology for this category.

Speaker 3: A lot of people call it dumb phone,

Speaker 1: but I

Speaker 3: call it simple phone.

Speaker 1: Oh, okay. So you don't like the term dumb phone?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, you know, your your phone gets smarter. You you actually get dumper. So we Oh, no.

Speaker 2: Phone Woah.

Speaker 3: The phone need to do the tool need to do what the tool does for us, like hammer a screwdriver. Right? Yeah. It does that for you, and you put it back. You don't swipe your hammer for five hours, so hammer company can make money. So that's exactly how we design life phone and all the tools inside the life phone.

Speaker 1: Okay. So a minimalist flip phone is the newest product. Talk us through the the evolution. How do you measure demand? Why why flip phone? It's very no nostalgic. I I love the idea, but what was the broader thesis?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, we've been doing this for ten years. Mhmm. I think in back in 2015 Over like success. We were in incubators for being for that Google created for designers. And and still talking to a lot of VCs and successful entrepreneurs, especially app entrepreneurs, we realized that everyone's bragging about how much time, attention they get from their users. That's why they're successful. They could categorize, you know, analyze the data and sell the data to the highest bidder. That's the whole attention civilian economy, and I just don't like that. I don't wanna see advertisement. I don't wanna know I don't want people to know where I am twenty four seven, but I love technology. I want modern technology without the civilians' attention economy built in. So what we're trying to do is offering a device that has all the modern utility tools but without the business model building to maximize your attention. So you could call somebody, text somebody, get a direction home, listen to music, taking notes, you know, QR code reader, but no one's trying to maximize your attention so they can make money. Same idea. Like, we would we're not trying to ask people to give up technology. We're trying to say, hey. You we all have different shoes, different car, different jacket. Mhmm. Right? You could use different tool at a different scenario, right tool for the time. And that's the essential idea of life form, be intentional about your time. Don't waste it on social media. When was the last time you or anyone else spent three hours swiping the TikTok and you snap out of it?

Speaker 1: I feel

Speaker 3: so good about myself.

Speaker 1: Every day. Maybe I'm

Speaker 8: on the Internet three

Speaker 1: hours every day. But, yes, I am the

Speaker 2: exception to

Speaker 1: the rule. I am the screen time.

Speaker 2: But how How does so so assume the you know, people listening are with, you know, Verizon or an AT and T or maybe another another carrier. For the light phone, do you have to get a basically an entirely separate number? Is there a way to use

Speaker 1: Yeah. The same number for price that is I think it's maybe Chris Williamson talks about this, the cocaine phone and the and the vegetable phone or something like that. Like, they will have one phone with all of the crazy apps on them and then one that's like essentially a work phone. And when they when they carry that phone, it's like brick. There's a whole bunch of different trends. But can you actually run, like, a single number with two phones?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, that's that's that's healthy. Right? You you we always need a balance. You could. There's different way to do that. You could turn on call forwarding. You could physically remove your SIM card on your smartphone, put into your to your life phone. You could also utilize service utilize service like T Mobile digits that give you two numbers I'm sorry. Two SIM card that tied to one number.

Speaker 1: Oh,

Speaker 3: interesting. Different ways to to utilize Live Phone as a secondary phone or primary device. But we actually see more of our customers using Live Phone as their primary device now, especially younger generations.

Speaker 7: Yeah.

Speaker 3: They do. I was in the yeah. I was in the event in New York that a group of young people that promoting real life experience. And then the performers in front in in the stage, and there was a woman in the crowd, like, taking took took out her smartphone and tried to record the performance, and everyone's booing her.

Speaker 1: Oh. You

Speaker 3: know? I think this this is this is no longer short term, not a retro feeling that, oh, we're just temporary feeling good about retro technology. I think this movement started by by the young people, the Gen Z or younger, is here to stay as the AI, as this, you know, five g iPhone 45 keep getting bigger and bigger. I think this the other side of the movement is gonna get bigger and bigger too. Mhmm. And we're trying to keep people the options that I can opt out.

Speaker 2: So What would it take to add Instagram Reel? Or maybe even, like, prediction markets. Well, I'm we'll keep in mind. Discounted if people commit to doing prediction markets enough Yeah.

Speaker 1: Preload 10 k. Yeah. Play with

Speaker 2: it. The phone is free as long as you're trading

Speaker 1: Sort a gambling phone.

Speaker 2: It's $5,000 a month. Hey. If you pay the phone More more seriously, how are you how are you thinking about AI features? Because I I imagine you're you're there's this tension between AI does give you the potential to interact with your devices in new ways. Right? It's it's cool to be able to like, you know, dictate to your to your devices. That's gaining a lot of popularity right now, maybe later than a lot of people would have expected. But then on the other side, I can imagine that a lot of your core users to date, like, hate AI and they're trying to get away from it. Yeah. So how do you how do you kinda thread the needle there?

Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I I always said that, you know, AI is a tool. It's a software program that's very helpful, and we should treat it as such. Meaning, we when we started Light Phone, it's not because there's a new technology being invented. So we designed product for that. Right? We designed product because we're seeing people frustrated, anxious, stressed out, not happy with their smartphone and social media, but there's no way out. I think the same logic applied to AI or this program, these tools. It can be really useful. It can be helpful as long as it saves my time. So I you're free on my time to do things important to me and make me happy. I think that's a good outcome. However, you you guys probably know, like, with AI tool, more people work more hours. You you've been notified all the time with the things that are happening. So I think treating this particular technology as one of your tools and design and use accordingly is the way to go. And we're not anti AI per se, but we do see the sentiments among young people towards, you know, everything AI, the big tech push on AI. The the discrepancy, the gap is getting bigger every day as I witnessed it. You know, going to tech conference, the potential of AI is being praised. You go into this, you know, this this real life experience that young people start at LeadEye Club. They don't they don't care about AI. I we've been interviewing flip phone users in a new product we created called life phone life flip, the flip phone that that we just announced today. We've been interviewing different flip phone users for for the last six months. The one one thing they never bring up is AI feature. No one wants an AI button on their phone. I mean, I'm I have no doubt it's very helpful. I have no question that is there can be the future technology that saves our time to to do things for us, and we can move on quickly. But I just don't think it's being designed as such at the moment.

Speaker 1: Take us through the business side, the business model, the customer acquisition funnel. This is a product that I feel like it naturally generates a lot of organic earned media. It's fun talking to you about this and all the knock on effects of of of phone use. I imagine every product reviewer reviews it. Like, there's probably a decent amount of attention that effectively comes for free in this category. But what does the what does the actual scaling of the business look like? Are you doing, like, direct response ads on Instagram Reels to get people to uninstall? Are you are you Adamisari's worst nightmare?

Speaker 3: No. So as a matter of fact, we don't utilize advertisement. We don't pay social media to promote live phone. So the last ten years, all our growth are organic. What? From word-of-mouth, from press, from celebrities that are using live phone, including Sure. Aaron Paul from Breaking Bad Oh, yeah. Pete Davidson, Ed Sharon from UK. We got a lot of people that that resonating with what we're trying to do and support it and and and spread the word of our life. So the last ten years, we grow, you know, every year, 20% to 50% without any advertisement. I I guess I think it's only human that this resonates with a lot of people.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Talk about the decision to include podcasts. There's I I know some people that are addicted to both making and consuming podcasts.

Speaker 3: Oh, that's a tough one. I think every tool that we designed follow the same principle. I could summarize into three principle. Number one, no advertisement. Number two, every action no user take as a creator.

Speaker 2: We have ads in our we have what about what about ads in podcast?

Speaker 8: Yeah. We got we snuck out That's

Speaker 2: the way that's how you get in in front of the Light Phone users is you gotta just advertise

Speaker 1: From podcasts. Natively. Here we go.

Speaker 3: Well, so similar to how we design music tool. Right? Yeah. Like, it's not a Spotify. We design it as a m p three player that you intentionally create

Speaker 1: That's very

Speaker 3: cool. Playlist for you to calm down, for you to be creative, for you to get into a certain mood using that tool as the tool. Yeah. Spot of Spotify podcast I'm sorry. Podcast is the same way. We're seeing it as an educational tool, but I I get it. Like, loophole might be advertisement in the podcast Yeah. Which we cannot control.

Speaker 1: But I like the idea of an old school m p three player. There's something very satisfying about actually curating an intentional playlist, loading it up for a different moment. Like, it is Mhmm. Yeah. It's a special, special moment.

Speaker 3: Well, everything intentional makes things special. Right? Everything that you're intentional doing make that experience special. The object designed for one purpose make it special too.

Speaker 2: Yeah. How do you how do you think about what what does success look like for light phone? Like, is like a million is a million people globally that, you know Mhmm. Use and love their light phone and and, you know, get a new one every year when you make it newer, faster, lighter, longer battery life?

Speaker 3: No. Plan obsolete is not something that we're interested in. In the last eleven years, we we introduced three phones. In LifePhone two, we we still have user using them. We're still selling them. It's been six years. We we stand behind our product. We upgrade the software. We upgrade I'm sorry. We repair life form locally here in Brooklyn, and and that's what we're gonna do. We we're not asking people to buy a new phone every year. There's no need there's no reason to buy a new phone every every year. Like, when's the last time you upgrade your hammer?

Speaker 1: Camera? Hammer.

Speaker 2: Oh, hammer. Hammer. Well, we have to do it. We actually we have

Speaker 1: a Gong now. We we upgrade a lot. But, yes, I take your point. It is a tool. Like that, don't do

Speaker 2: We're we're we're pretty rough on our on our gongs.

Speaker 1: So we gotta upgrade them

Speaker 8: a lot.

Speaker 1: But for the average person, one hammer is a lifetime. No. It's a great

Speaker 2: it's a great it's a Well, congratulations on the launch. But and yeah. Was just asking that because I feel like it's it's phones are somewhat like cigarettes in that people know that they're bad, but they're just so good in some ways for But some people and I was gonna say, even if you have a million people that are just like, you know Yeah. Like true true believers that are willing to make certain sacrifices in terms of like some some features and things like that, you could still have a really thriving business. And and and and it feels like, you know, it's not a billion users or bust here. Yeah.

Speaker 3: Well, 2028% of Gen Z are strongly interested in acquiring a now smartphone. 26% of millennial interested in getting getting a new smartphone. 12% of Gen x interested

Speaker 1: in getting a new smartphone. The Gen x values

Speaker 3: I I think care. Trend is not gonna stop. Yeah. Yeah. This trend is gonna get bigger and bigger.

Speaker 1: Very cool. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Congratulations on the ofthephone.com. You can go and preorder one. It's available for preorder, and the light flip is shipping April 2027.