Jason Fried on AI work culture: products aren't getting better at the rate the development process is improving

Speaker 1: Real insider trading risk here. Yes. Right? You might have the the, you know, groom Yes. Talking to some of his buddies saying

Speaker 2: But if it's low stakes

Speaker 1: I've got

Speaker 2: You know.

Speaker 1: I've got some some I'm gonna cry. I want you to know I'm gonna cry. Yeah. Go go bet bet the house on

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: On me crying.

Speaker 2: Maybe. But I I think this is designed to be, you know, generally small prizes, $20 gift card, maybe some memento, maybe some, you know you know, an engraved dinner plate from the wedding just to show that you were more engaged, something to remember.

Speaker 1: Well, let's ask Jason.

Speaker 2: Let's ask Jason. He would

Speaker 1: encourage betting on his When

Speaker 2: are we gonna get betting? When can we gamble on 37 signals properties? Well, Well, wedding was

Speaker 6: we had 12 people in our backyard so there wouldn't have been a very big use case for that app.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Small pool, lack of liquidity. That's a real problem.

Speaker 1: Small number of people doesn't mean there's not a lot of volume necessarily. Oh, Depends on who you are. Some people throw in some real You

Speaker 2: get DHH there, he throws in, you know, his CGT, you know, he puts it all on the line, you never know.

Speaker 6: Do you see that picture today?

Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2: Trying to hurt your feelings? What's going on?

Speaker 6: Yeah. That's that was a little that was a bruise. That was a little bit of a bruise. It was a bruise because way back when I used to own a Singer nine eleven. Oh, yeah. And I was selling this is a number of years ago before they went crazy crazy. And I was trying to sell it and some guys like, I'll trade you my Carrera GT for that. And I'm like, I don't really nah,

Speaker 5: I don't

Speaker 6: really think that was a good deal and it turned out to be Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Should One of the trades of all time.

Speaker 6: Yeah. It would've been a good trade.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Did just

Speaker 2: have that image pulled up? I didn't have that.

Speaker 1: That's so brutal. I I was in I was in The Alps Thursday, Friday, Saturday Mhmm. And the the event that I was at, there was hundreds of of Porsches everywhere and still when the CGTs would roll up, everyone would get quiet

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: And and just watch. Like seriously, there's one moment where, like there was probably at least 200 people. Mhmm. And and it was everyone's just talking and talking and talking. CGT pulls up, crowd goes silent. Everyone's just in awe.

Speaker 6: What color? Is it silver?

Speaker 1: There was actually a bunch. Red. There's a GT silver. GT silver on tan is like probably Oh. Probably my my favorite that I've been seeing.

Speaker 2: But no prediction markets around it?

Speaker 1: None at all. Brutal. No. Just doing it Feels like just enjoying cars purely for the

Speaker 2: get so many people if they're not comfortable driving. You know, we know some people that collect cars but they don't drive them. They could partake saying, oh, Geordie's going out for a little lap. When will he get back? I'll bet on it. You know? Of course Yeah. There's insider trading risk.

Speaker 6: Will he get back?

Speaker 5: Like, will

Speaker 6: he just hit the Who knows? Those things are tricky to drive, I understand.

Speaker 1: What's the latest what's your latest vehicle purchase?

Speaker 6: I bought a a 1979 Porsche nine twenty eight

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 6: Which is one of my favorite cars of all time. I own two nine twenty eights. They're both old and they're not expensive, but they're awesome. And I bought a green one. It's oak green metallic, which is a rare color.

Speaker 1: Woah.

Speaker 6: And it has Pasha seat inserts, and it's just it's awesome. It's just it's so seventies.

Speaker 2: I love it.

Speaker 6: I love it.

Speaker 1: Is I've never driven a nine twenty eight. What is what's the experience like?

Speaker 6: They're very planted. So it's a v eight, so it's a front engine car, is unusual proportion, but it's a very it's very stable. I mean, were not that fast. I think they had 200 and maybe 10 horsepower or something in the early cars. This is the first year, first and second year. So they're not fast but they they feel great to drive. I you should borrow it. Yeah. Combine some

Speaker 2: of you a guy as well? Because that was the funniest thing about DHH's post is that he's just like, all these cars are kind of worse than the model y in some ways.

Speaker 6: I do have a model y and it is probably the best car I've ever owned overall.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: I mean, it's so comfortable to drive. It's quick as hell. It handles great. We had a previous y which I didn't think was very good but the new y's are fantastic. I just love it. Yeah. I mean, really I prefer to drive that over anything to be honest.

Speaker 2: Do you do you have a do you have an intuitive sense for the business logic between the lack of fast followers around that? Like in terms of just appliance vehicle, it feels like all the other manufacturers are still playing in their special. It's this car says something about you. It offers a particular experience. It has convertible. But just in, like, the appliance, basically a minivan on wheels, ultimate utility, Tesla just has had it on lock and they're, like, running away with the market.

Speaker 6: They have. I mean, I guess that's what Honda and Toyota did for many many years. Right?

Speaker 2: I never really

Speaker 6: thought of those as as they were more just basic appliances I need to get from point a to point b and I want it to be reliable as hell and just work, you

Speaker 5: know. Yeah.

Speaker 6: So I think I think Tesla kind of slid in there and basically did that with EVs in a way that everything else is a it's more of a statement. I guess people might think of Tesla's a statement, but it really it really is. Not It's like, I want a great car that's incredibly quick, clear, technology advanced, affordable. Yeah. Full self driving is incredible. It's just a really an amazing thing. And if you haven't really been in one recently, you don't really know because they weren't that high quality four years ago.

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 6: They were kind of bad. They've gotten to be very high quality now.

Speaker 2: Yeah. People complain about the panel gaps and all the interior and all sorts

Speaker 1: of Yeah. Stuff that they've

Speaker 2: They've sorted that out.

Speaker 6: They're incredible now.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Where like a lot of different cars feel like they're in bubble territory CGT. I don't know how much more it can go up. I'd be I'm sure it'll go up more but there's I think there was one on Bring a Trailer. Actually

Speaker 6: Let's not talk about Bring a Trailer. I'm actually Honestly, my phone is is on because there's an auction ending in thirty two minutes.

Speaker 2: Okay. Out of here.

Speaker 6: I can't miss because I'm bidding on it.

Speaker 1: So so Yeah. So so with Yeah. We won't dox the car until you until you win.

Speaker 6: It's okay. It's okay. I mean like, it's a fiftieth anniversary nine eleven which I used to own. I owned one a long time ago. Do you know the car? Do you know that particular No.

Speaker 1: Which Pull it up. Wait.

Speaker 2: Pull it up.

Speaker 1: The fiftieth anniversary of the nine eleven? Isn't that only a few years old?

Speaker 6: Yeah. So was a 2016 car and they did a it was a September model and they did an anniversary model which they put like bright chrome trim on it. They did pepita inserts. It has a slightly better engine. It's the last of the manual naturally aspirated nine elevens with a wide body that aren't ridiculously expensive.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 6: And I it's beautiful looking. It's got like updated Fuchs wheels. It's an incredible thing. Go check it out.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 6: It does. You'll find it on it just looks beautiful. I've owned one and I had a PDK and there's a manual for sale and I kind of badly want it. It only has 7,000 miles on it. Please don't outbid me

Speaker 1: whoever you are. Actually got my mouse I pulled have up here. We won't we we don't need we don't need to pull it up but it it looks absolutely absolutely beautiful. There it is. They pulled it up.

Speaker 2: It looks like a

Speaker 1: What do you think about what's your read on the Sport Classic? Have you driven a Sport Classic?

Speaker 6: I've not driven one. I love the interior. Mhmm. I don't like the big circle on the side if they, know, they usually have Oh,

Speaker 1: no decals.

Speaker 6: No decals for me. I the interiors are gorgeous though. Love that car.

Speaker 5: Would the thing is is

Speaker 6: that they've they, you know, they're so expensive for what they really are which is a Carrera s basically, believe. Right? Or To me

Speaker 1: to me the driving experience is is some like I had I think the best my my most memorable twenty minutes in the car coming down Okay. From Mankind in Austria. Uh-huh. Twenty minutes open road. It was the most it felt like I was in a video game. It felt like driving some combination of like a turbo s and a GT two. It's like so so planted and it's like it's refined but it's also angry. It's like it was it was

Speaker 6: Manual too, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah. Manual. It's it's So nice. Incredible. It's

Speaker 6: great. Those are those, you know, you can't get them really in aftermarket, they're what? 300 plus or something now?

Speaker 1: No, no, no, like 600.

Speaker 8: 6, sorry, 600.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Those were the STs. Wait, so when a million or something?

Speaker 1: Yeah. The s t is even Yeah. I think even more. But so when when things feel like they're in certain cars feel like they're in bubble territory, are you just buying are you going like, I'm just gonna buy nine things like the nine twenty eight and things that are a bit more special, but less like, you know, you don't want to buy it when it's hot basically.

Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean, I tend to not chase things anyway. It just there's if everyone's chasing it, I'm not interested in it in a sense. So the nine twenty eight is a car like nobody wants, but I've always loved. I kind of grew up with them. They're just they're super cool. So I I go after that, but I I do I do miss the fiftieth anniversary, so I might want to pick this one up if I can. We'll see where it ends up. Maybe I won't. But I mean, wanted a Dakar for a while. I wanted a Sport Classic actually. I'd love to have one of those, but I'm not gonna pay that's obscene. I'm just not gonna do that. There's no reason for that. It's also not I just don't spend that kind of money on cars. It's a crazy amount of money on a car that's just not something I'm really gonna drive all the time anyway.

Speaker 1: How do you feel what is the last ten minutes of an auction like feel like to you? Because because I've like tried I I've I I when when sports sports betting was blowing up, I was hanging out with I think Senra and like Rob and probably John. And I was like, I'm gonna give this a shot. I wanna know why why this is so popular and I just couldn't quite I couldn't quite get into it. But the experience of being of bidding in the final minutes of an auction, like something in my head just goes like, you're not losing. And and to me,

Speaker 6: it's It's dangerous.

Speaker 1: Get carried away.

Speaker 6: It's dangerous to throw that one more that one chip in there at the end. You're like, fuck it. I'll just, know. Yeah. The thing is is that I I all I mean, this is just I always feel deep regret right after winning a car. Like like, especially a vintage car. Maybe not a new car. Like a sport classic, I would not feel regret cause I know what I'm getting and there's no issues. Right? But like Yeah. You buy a seventy nine nine twenty eight on the on the thing and you like, you get it and you take it to your mechanic, he's like, you know, there's like $40,000 of work that needs to happen on this thing. You're

Speaker 1: like, fuck.

Speaker 6: So vintage cars, deep regret and I've regretted all of them I bought even though I liked them all. But the purchase was like deeply regretful. But modern cars, I don't feel that way. I I would be very excited to get something I like.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Good point.

Speaker 6: Yeah. You gotta be careful. That that like I talked to some mechanics and they're like, that is just keeping me in business because people just buy these cars. Oh. They think they're good. They get them. They need like tons of service. It's been great for small mechanics actually.

Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah. I I bought my first sports car and bring a trailer. The first one I really went for, I ended up Yeah. Bidding way more than I was comfortable with just because I got into I I was like 23 at the time. I got into the last I was one of the last two bidders and we Psychosis? And he yeah. I got I got I got auction psychosis, ran away. Honestly, luckily, I didn't win. Okay. But the second one I got, it was I had the perfect experience. I Oh, go ahead. Bought it. I I think I bought it bought it well. It was a 997. Nice. It was in Arizona.

Speaker 6: Dot two, dot one? What which one did you get?

Speaker 1: The dot one. But the issue, the the the bearing issue that they have had already been like fixed or whatever. Okay. And I flew to Arizona, pick it up, I get it, drives great. I'm thirty minutes down the road headed back California in it. I was gonna drive through Joshua Tree and I was passing a construction site and a piece of rebar went like fully through the wheel, like through the tire and the wheel. Basically, I pulled over and and ended up having to ship the car back to California. And it was it was the most it was my most devastating car enthusiast moment. But once it got to California, we got a new wheel. It ran perfectly for as many miles as That's and great. Then ended up making money on the on the sale.

Speaker 6: Nice. I don't ever do that. I bought real quick. I bought a an Aston DB nine GT, which is the last year the DB nine Mhmm. Which is which is to me one of those beautiful cars ever made in history. I got the car, I get it, you know, shipped in on the truck. I got this on bat. There's like this rattle in the back that's kind of bugging me, I take it to the mechanic. They can't figure it out. They're like a few grand in trying to figure it out. Turns out like the car got in an accident at some point and it was never reported on CARFAX and to like fix this structural issue, was like $9. So I'm like, fuck it. Just I sold the car to the dealer immediately. Lost like 20 k. I just wanted to wash my hands of it. I like, I had it for two days. Two days. And just sold immediately. Because I just I can't I just can't handle that thing to know that like I bought this thing and it wasn't what it was Mhmm. And yeah, could fix it but it was never gonna be the same. Yeah. So I I never I never seem to win on that but good for you. I'm glad you made money on your car.

Speaker 2: Good luck for twenty minutes.

Speaker 1: How do you how do you feel about different luxury brands doing what I would call Zoomer partnerships? So like Aston Martin launching a partnership with Call of Duty. I can imagine that the logic for that was, hey, we want to reach a younger audience. We need more relevancy with with the next generation of buyers. Aston has obviously struggled recently even though I think their cars are are stunning. But I would say in every single sort of like price tier, it's not quite as desirable. I think for a lot of people as like the Ferrari equivalent or the Porsche equivalent.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: So I can I can understand where they're going even though to me as somebody who loves Call of Duty and loves Aston Martin, I still got like quite an aversion to that partnership? And then you have some of the stuff that like AP does with their, you know, partnering with like DJs and things like that that that that's kind of It's this interesting thing because you're trying to appeal to the young generation, but it ends up turning off, I feel like, your actual buyer group in the process.

Speaker 6: Yeah. I I find it to be I mean, for me, I I it doesn't appeal to me. And although I will say that I like what Aston's done. Aston with that DB nine that I bought, they had a double o seven edition which I think is cheesy as hell, but because it's a like double o seven like on the seats. But it probably spoke to their audience, you know. So like that makes sense to me in a sense even though I would never buy that. But yeah, don't like the I don't like the EP spot deals. But you know, who am I to say? Like they clearly sell them out and it probably worked for them, but it's not the kind of thing that appeals to me is all I would say.

Speaker 2: Agreed. Any more car questions? Yeah.

Speaker 6: Car watch questions. I mean, there's actually I saw a watch recently like, Braemont came out with some like Aston Martin or like, I don't know who it was. It's like, what do you I don't who buys these? I just wonder who buys these silly things. Just I don't get it.

Speaker 1: I don't

Speaker 2: get it. But the the watch car the the watch car collab seems to make more sense because if you're buying a car, you're checking out for something that's 6 figures. If you're like, that's a couple more thousand dollars. Like throw the watch in, whatever. It's like

Speaker 6: Well, sometimes the dealerships do that to to like, you gotta buy the watch. If you wanna buy the watch, I'll get you the car. Like, that I hate that bundling stuff. I Yeah. It's so disingenuous. I don't know if you saw this thing Jay Leno. There's this little Jay Leno clip recently about how he won't buy a Ferrari because when he was younger, he went to go buy a Ferrari and they're like, well, you gotta buy two of these other models you don't want before you can get the one you want.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 6: And he's just like, turned me off forever from Ferrari and like, I'll buy McLaren because they want my business and they're cool to me and, you know, that's how I feel about this stuff. That's why I don't like the I don't like this bundling. I don't especially Rolex ADs and

Speaker 2: Sure.

Speaker 6: Porsche dealers now are doing the same thing. It's just it's gross. Yeah. It's gross, I think.

Speaker 1: Yeah. On the Ferrari side, obviously, the luche was mocked, but ultimately, do you think it ends up being a win for them just because they can effectively say, now, any car that you actually want, you just add a luche to the to your cart and check out. And you they solve they get, you know, more margin, I'm sure, plus they solve their emissions issues if, like, for everyone Oh, sure. Sure. Crazy, you know, desirable super car. They sell one EV and it and it sort of nets out to being like pretty efficient.

Speaker 6: My sense is they'll sell every car they make. And I just don't think they're going to resell very well. That's all. But like, I mean, I don't know. I you know, when I first well, not first, but last time I was on the show we talked about the interior of that car and like Yeah. We're like, let's wait until we see the exterior. That's

Speaker 2: right. That's right.

Speaker 6: Because the

Speaker 2: interior, I still think looks cool. I I've seen a lot of the details. It's interesting. It's different, but it like can work and it has a purpose. And then Yeah. The exterior was really really

Speaker 6: I'm I'm the kind of person I just support like all creators of things. It's so hard to make anything. Yeah. So like, want to give them the benefit of the doubt. They're Ferrari, it's Johnny like, they probably know a few more things than people online know about like what's cool, what isn't, what's good.

Speaker 2: Yeah. It it is

Speaker 6: an unusual car. It does not look like a Ferrari. It doesn't feel like a Ferrari, but maybe it's time for Ferrari to make some changes. I don't know. Maybe they're bored of their own history. I'm not sure. I mean, it's interesting. Yeah. I I wouldn't I'm not interested in the car, but I just it's for the same reason I really respect, but I would never want to buy a Cybertruck. Like, I just like that that exists in the world.

Speaker 2: Yeah. No. Agree with that, for sure.

Speaker 6: I like that the luche like exists in the world. Like I liked it someone did that and they did it their own way. I always support things like that even if it's not for me.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely a head to I'm

Speaker 1: gonna support it myself Yeah. When Are you? Selling when no. When they're selling for Half

Speaker 2: off off. Whereas Yeah. Before everyone was complaining True. Oh, SF 90 is so expensive. Purosangue is so expensive. No one's complaining about that stuff anymore now. Everyone's like

Speaker 6: That's a good point.

Speaker 2: It has a natural aspirated v 12 in the Purosangue. If they're charging the high $500,000, that's

Speaker 1: What is your last car question? What is You said you had a Singer, but but when it comes to Resto mods, like what makes a great Resto mod to you?

Speaker 6: I don't think there are great Resto mods. That's what I realized. I mean, the Singer is an amazing thing for sure, but what I realized was it was neither of what it was supposed to be. It wasn't like a vintage car, and it also wasn't a new Porsche. So it kind of had this it's it's a beautiful object, and they do an exceptionally fine job designing and building them.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 6: Although mine had a lot of issues, because mine was pretty early, like the seventy second car, so they hadn't worked it all out yet. But it just didn't satisfy me in other either direction. And and I kind of realized that like, I'd rather just have an old car and a

Speaker 1: new car.

Speaker 5: Mhmm.

Speaker 6: And save some money, could have both. And and then like drive the old car and have the old experience, drive the new car and have the new experience. So I'm not a big Rust O Mod guy. For a while, I was curious about like icons like the Broncos and stuff. And I also with that, I'd just rather have an old beat up Bronco or an old beat up pickup truck. I just I'm I'm more into like what what is the thing supposed to be? Just get the thing that it's supposed to be. Yeah.

Speaker 2: What about

Speaker 6: what's your take?

Speaker 2: What well, we were debating the the Range Rover has a classics program where Oh, yes. They're selling a 1994 Range Rover, but it's been fully restored from the factory. And so maybe that solves the problem you're identifying. What do you think about that?

Speaker 6: I'm into that because that's like the brand doing their own thing. I'm into that fully. Think Porsche has a classics program too perhaps maybe. Yeah. I just don't like mods basically. And to me that's not a mod, that's like a true restoration.

Speaker 3: Okay.

Speaker 6: A mod, I think that's backdating or something. I'm not into that so much.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Restoration I I would say that's a great way to put it. It's like I'm a massive fan of restoration. I don't want somebody to take Yeah. I don't want somebody to take what was what was perfect at its time and try to like modernize it and then put their own spin on it.

Speaker 6: Same same thing with houses for me. Like, I like an old house should be restored to the way it was. I don't like walking into an old house with a lot of soul, and then you go into a kitchen and it's super modern. Yeah. It just doesn't it doesn't work. I mean, it works, but it this this something is missing then actually in both those experiences. So anyway, that's my stupid opinion as whatever. Everyone's got their own thing. Plenty of people like singers, plenty of people like Rustamuds, and they all are great things. It's just not for me anymore.

Speaker 2: Yeah. I gotta ask you one tech question.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Sure. Let's do something.

Speaker 2: So so and I I I think you'll have a you'll have some insight here. So there was a a screenshot from a story about how hard technology workers are are grinding in the AI era that went viral for being bleak according to this this poster. They said a 31 year old tech startup worker in San Francisco who spoke on the condition of anonymity for fear of professional repercussions said that her engineering manager husband told her a few months ago that he needed to focus all of his energy on quote becoming an AI native and requested that she take on almost all parenting responsibilities for the couple's preschool age daughter. She complied. She described the experience as surreal. He spent days, nights and weekends locked in his office toiling away on AI projects but her husband eventually thanked her. He was now the top user of AI in his company. Is it the great lock in? Is this burnout? Does he need to pick up a book? If so, which book would you recommend from your library across Rework, RemoHoot? Doesn't have to be crazy at work. It sounds like it is crazy at many startups, at many engineering organizations. Some of them are in real knockout drag out fights where the extra hour of work will actually result in maybe winning or losing It's

Speaker 1: funny the way that others, maybe not. The whole the whole conversation around that post just was around the screenshot. Yes. No one read the actual article. I certainly didn't. And it just ends, the husband is now the top user of AI. Yes. Which doesn't mean he's the best at using it. He just means he's it reads to me like he's just using the most tokens. So hopefully, came out of his three month, you know, AI bender and is like actually the best at Yeah. Getting the most utility out of the product. Driving value. But Yeah. We don't know.

Speaker 6: Well, yeah. I mean, I I do find it ironic that, you know, AI is what it is, yet everyone seems to be working harder and harder. And it's it's it's it's one of these things technology has always promised that it would do a lot for us, then we'd have more free time to do other things. And it just seems like no, no, no, and no, especially at work. So yeah, I I think it's a real problem. I and I I can sense it here occasionally that, you know, yeah, we're getting more done, but it's it weighs on people more because this you can be doing multiple things at once now and you can be parallel working on with a bunch of different agents doing a bunch of different things. It's like to what end? Where where is this going and why does it need to happen? Not that the technology's not amazing, but I'm not sure it's doing good things to human beings. Yeah. So but the tech is incredible, obviously. But

Speaker 1: Some of Imagine if thirty seven signals had got access to today's models a decade ago Right. And didn't tell anyone

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: And just got to use them. Yeah. Maybe you're Part of the problem is that everyone has access to the tools and you're in a competitive Sure. Category and you and and I feel like there's this concern of of if we're not I mean, it's always a question of like, do you wanna be Mhmm. Do you want at least if you're a venture backed company and you're competing against another venture backed company for a market, you don't want to be working less hard than them. That's generally a good not a good strategy.

Speaker 6: But those are inputs. Like customers don't care about the inputs. They what is the like how does it manifest in the product? And I'm not seeing products get better at the rate that the development process is getting better.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: So people are doing a lot of stuff, And yet, like, people actually don't want their products to change rapidly either. People want to get used to things, they want to settle into something, they want to understand how it goes, they don't want things to be moving constantly, things to be added all the time. So there there's a disconnect actually between how much you can make and how much people actually can absorb and and incorporate into their own work day basically. So yeah, I I think like the end the day, you're building a product. However you build it, you're building it, but just because you can build more of it doesn't mean it makes it a better product, can make it a worse product and you're seeing that all over the place right now actually. So I don't know. It's great to have the tools. The tools are amazing, obviously. But you still have to decide what gets through the slit. Like what what are you putting out there in the world?

Speaker 2: I'm always laughing about the fact that when I'm in Gmail in Chrome, I can open Gemini in Gmail and I can also open Gemini in Chrome and then I just have two sidebar chats that can

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 2: If and if the window's too small it takes up 100% of the window. I'm like Yeah. This is and then and then you can't even use the models to interact with the email. And email's already pretty well organized. It's like it's all perfectly organized by time or whatever filter you want.

Speaker 6: It's pretty good already in that way. But yeah, anyway, I mean amazing tech. But yeah, I I I don't think we've figured out what that all means yet still. Yeah. And I'm not alone in that. But it doesn't look, if it if it exhausts people Yeah. That's not a good thing. It no tech is good if it Yeah. Makes people exhausted.