Patrick Whitesell invests in Alex Cooper's Unwell, betting on creator-led media empires over platforms

Speaker 2: But while we wait, let me tell everyone about Codex. Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents. Whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows, Codex helps you move projects forward from start to finish. And our next guest is with us here in the TBPN Ultra Run. Let's bring in Patrick. How are you doing? What's up, boys? What's going on? Thank you so much for taking the time.

Speaker 3: I'm good. I'm just in New York City. Can you see me okay? Hotel room here in New York.

Speaker 1: You look great. There's there's a a little bit of lag but I can Yeah. Hear you So Yeah. Make it work.

Speaker 3: Well, let me

Speaker 1: It's that hotel WiFi.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Know. Classic. It'll get

Speaker 1: you every time. Alright.

Speaker 3: Well, sorry about that, boys.

Speaker 2: No, you're good.

Speaker 1: No, you're good. We can hear you fine.

Speaker 2: Okay. Good. So, yeah, give us a little bit of an overview of your firm, the thesis, and then the recent deals.

Speaker 3: So the idea was, you know, when we took Endeavor private, essentially what we what that effectively did was kind of we dismantled the company, and essentially sold everything but our ownership interest in WME, the talent agency,

Speaker 10: and

Speaker 3: our position in TKO, which is now around 61. But everything else that we ran and sat on, we sold, and so effectively kind of eliminated the job. And going forward and looking at the next chapter, I didn't really want to start, you know, a new company right away. And one of the things Egon Durbin and I talked about, we had a really great long relationship with Silver Lake, everything we kind of did at Endeavor was really fueled by them and with their partnership. And so out of that, I talked to Egon, goes, well why don't we just keep investing in the field that you're in? You know, kind of entertainment, sports, content, the things that I've kind of spent my, you know, thirty years in, but on a much smaller level, you know. So we just started with $250,000,000, and the idea was to make, you know, kind of 20 to $100,000,000 investments in different things that were in our sector, and help companies that I could, you know, have some influence on, help build. And so that's kind of what the whole thesis is around Whitesell, the investment company. And then the other part of it is when Egon bought Raiders, or invested into the Raiders, I should say, we had a WME at a football representation business, and per the league, you can't be a buyer and a seller. So Right. I took that entire group out and started Win Sports, which is predominantly a football agency. We're starting to do a little bit of golf too, but it's really focused on building a really great dynamic football agency. And we have also a handful of artists in there of clients of mine that I've worked with forever, of actors predominantly, and directors that just have been long time clients, so they're also a part of it. But the investment that we put into Alex Cooper's company came from Whitesell.

Speaker 1: Got it. Awesome.

Speaker 2: What are the key ingredients to a great investment, great media company in the modern era where it's individual led, influencer led, podcasting, live streaming, these types of things? What are you looking for?

Speaker 3: I think the reason why I was attracted to Alex is, I mean, again, going back, you know, thirty years, the one thing that's always the most important thing is having someone really talented

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: And really special. And Alex to me, I mean, obviously her podcast, you guys know how big it is, how influential she is. She's a cultural powerhouse to you know, kind of Gen Z women, but she's also built out already at Unwell, a really diversified company that is not only in these other sectors, but doing very well. It's in live events, there are consumer products, of course they're in content, both kind of scripted and unscripted, and that's at you know, kind of the traditional media companies like a Hulu or Netflix, but it's also, she's kind of started her own network of channels on YouTube, and funding and producing content for YouTube, everything from micro dramas to just reality shows, and that's gone exceedingly well as, you know, on top of it. And then lastly, an advertising agency, account for digital solutions for people, creative agency, that, you know, Alex was saying yesterday that she thinks that by the end of twenty seven, that the revenues of that will exceed her podcast revenues, which is quite a feat. So what I thought was interesting is yes, she's a big force as a podcaster and talent, but she really has built a company that I think can only grow in every one of these sectors that we're in. So that's what kind of attracted me to her. I think also the part about, you know, what you're seeing with the in this kind of creator economy is they can they don't you know, for thirty years when we built our company, if you had someone who had an idea like Alex's, you had to go to one of the traditional media companies, convince them to pay for it, you know, and finance it, distribute it, market it.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Now, of course, people like Alex and others have done it themselves. You guys know that very well. Yeah. And didn't need to go to the traditional players. But in that, I think now you're seeing a bunch of capital coming to this space and are going to invest it. You see people raising funds for it. I think that what Alex has done is really, really hard, and so I don't think it's at the agency business, you do it at scale. I don't think this is a thing you can do at scale. I think there are going to be unique individuals and opportunities that can build multi billion dollar media companies. And so that's where I think kind of where I want to kind of spend my time, and I think I hopefully can help them think through the strategy, whether it's M and A, or just in kind of figuring how to grow their content business or live event business. Hopefully, my, you know, kind of three decades of doing this could be additive and and fun. Great.

Speaker 1: All makes a lot of sense. I I feel like so many different investors have been so excited about the creator economy for so long and have struck despite that excitement, they tried to invest in the best thing to do is invest in the actual platforms. Right? A decade ago, go invest in Spotify and and and, you know Do

Speaker 2: the YouTube seed round.

Speaker 1: Meta do the YouTube seed round. Things of that nature. But then all the other attempts, you look back at like 2019, 2020, people were like, well, what if we can invest in the in the sort of tools that these businesses are using? The problem there is that these businesses will just like they don't need a QuickBooks for creators. These are just media businesses. Right? They just use QuickBooks. You can use Bank of America. You don't need a a fintech just for your business. You don't need a creators don't need an Amex card. They can just use Amex or Yep. Or Ramp or or whatever it is. And so it's come it's becoming a lot more clear to me. And then even looking at investing in the early stage of creators, the best creators early on are scrappy. They figure out how to get an audience without a lot of capital. They can just turn on their phone and start recording. Maybe they hire an editor. And so they can ramp revenue pretty quickly. And I think what investing in this category is gonna look like is like people like you waiting to to see who these sort of power law creators are and then going in and investing real dollars once they've established like at least the beginnings of of a of a platform. Just because I've Looking at the early stage, I don't There's a lot of early stage content creators that I'm bullish on, but none of them, the smart ones would take money Mhmm. Because they're like, well, capital is not a constraint for my business. A constraint is like, how do I reach more people? How do I how do I grow my existing business? And these businesses, at least on the advertising side, just generate a lot of cash.

Speaker 3: I think perfectly said, and I think it's all the more reason why I think there will be a lot of people rushing to this space. And will, I think, make the wrong decisions. Because to what you just described, you have to get to this place, and where Alex came to us, it isn't like she needs the money. I mean, you know, it's well documented what her Spotify deal is alone, And you know, and and when we grow there, the oops. What was that?

Speaker 1: That was an air horn for the Spotify deal. Cha ching. And the Sirius deal.

Speaker 2: Yeah. She's she's put up some huge numbers.

Speaker 3: Yeah. But the point of it is, but she's like, listen, you know, I need help. Know, I want the smart people around us to help kind of grow it and think through exactly what you described. And what's interesting is the traditional media companies, they they are kind of saying, listen, we don't know how to get to this audience that you reach, and we don't really know how to do creator stuff. So she's kind of going to, I think, be able to, if we do this right, go back and forth, have her own ideas, her own kind of things that we will incubate and do on YouTube, but also for the traditional media companies. And that's a kind of a hard thing to do because I don't know many people who can do both, at least that have come along historically. So, you know, and also she's, you know, our audience follows her as she's becoming a new mother. Yeah. And I think that's going to open up a whole different, you know, categories, not only in consumer products, but other things that she can kind of get involved in. That her audience is going through those same things. And I think there's just an authenticity to her, and a connection that is real, and it always starts with that. You got to have like great talent to build these things, and she is very ambitious and, you know, and loves it. I mean, loves what she's doing every day. So it's going to be fun.

Speaker 2: How are you thinking about flowback from the creator economy to traditional media to Hollywood. Obviously, we've seen the Netflix, the Spotify deals. But the more interesting trend that emerged this summer was around obsession and backrooms and iron lung, these YouTube creators, these independent, you know, new new filmmakers who were able to put up really incredible numbers at the box office. If we were having this conversation in two years and you told me that there was an Alex Cooper directed rom com that put up 200,000,000 at the box office, I'd be like, yeah, that tracks. But is Hollywood set up to embrace a new modern creator now? Because it's because in the past, it's always been, well, take take take six months off your current podcast to come do a Hollywood project and maybe you'll make 6 figures. Maybe maybe a million dollars is in the mail and that's just not enough to take the whole podcast down for six months while you go do a project.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I think you're right. I I think where you're going to see it is and you referenced those two movies Yeah. Is what's what's happened with the tools, and this is not not brand new, but like, you when Chris Nolan was 15 years old, right, he either had to get his video camera out or go rent film equipment. If you actually wanted to shoot a short film, you'd actually go rent lights and cameras and all that. And so the kid today, and whether it's just on TikTok or YouTube, that 15 year old Chris Nolan

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Is doing that every day and getting really, really good at making content and coming with ideas, and very fast so with the technology. And that's where I think the next generation of filmmakers are going to come from. And you know, we would used to go to film schools, not that they won't still come from film schools, but I think what you're going to see is the writer, director, creator in the film business, and in television is going to come there. And the power of like both of those things, when you kind of like, you know, get the kind of virality of online, and you can incubate things there. So I think part of what I think will happen with Alex is she'll have an idea that will do there, just start as a micro drama or something for YouTube, and it'll catch on like this, and then you've got to socialize it. So by the time you go out, then you could go make it as a feature film, or as a show for Netflix or whatever, but you've also got this built in awareness. I mean, obviously you guys followed it, but Backrooms was, you know, massively well known by a target audience long before it went out, right? Totally. And so I think that's where I think it'll land. I think the idea of like leaving your podcast to do it, I think is still going be risky, but these other people are sitting here every day making really, really good stuff, really good content.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: And so I think that's exciting. And you know, we'll see long term how Hollywood embraces that because ultimately, like, you know, where the role of the studios are in that, and how does the studios compete. You know, he made that movie for $700,000. It looked really good, you know, for for know, for that. And and those efficiencies are only gonna get better and better.

Speaker 1: Totally. Last last question I have before you leave. I'm curious how you think about generating returns from from an investment like like you're making it unwell. I'm I'm sure I'm sure you have a preference on it. You probably make back the original investment over the next few years. And on top of that, it's just you're you're you're in the money. But is this the kind of thing that you and and the team wanna just own and op you know, help operate for thirty years? Or do you think that there's gonna be in ten years from now, you know, a bigger set of buyers that would come in and and do, you know, majority buyout of of these type of platform creator businesses?

Speaker 3: You know, we it's funny to talk to Alex about that. I mean, because obviously, it's her company and how she decides to kind of grow it. And she's not really sure. I think she wants to keep doing this kind of forever, and I think one of the things that you know, when we went through it, you know, started our own company, several that came and invested, and over time as we bought other things, obviously our shares got diluted down, and we owed less and less of the company, but the company became worth, you know, obviously exponentially more, but we still had control of the company, and had the governance of that. And so I kind of look at it in a similar light here, as I think as long as Alex wants to do it, yes, I think there'll be room for other capital partners to come in if needed and if wanted. But I think my experience with Silver Lake is kind of like, you know, I got a bias to let's keep building something great as long as we can, and as long as we're enjoying it, and then I think the exits and all that will kind of take care of themselves. But you know, she started this company, it is her, So I I think, and she's got such a incredible work ethic. I just think she's going to be doing it for a long time, and you know, just going to grow it and own it. That's No. That's my Yeah.

Speaker 2: She's done a fantastic job. Love it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time to come chat with us.

Speaker 1: Yeah, great to meet you. Congratulations.

Speaker 3: Likewise and congrats on everything you guys have done. It's Thank incredible. Yeah. Know, start this thing and you know, OpenAI deal, it's just awesome. Even down in LA, people are watching you guys, you know. Spend some more time. I saw the Bob Iger thing today. Yeah. That was incredible.

Speaker 1: Yeah. A lot

Speaker 2: of It'll be Los Angeles.

Speaker 1: That made me optimistic on LA in a long time. Yeah. Everyone's like, oh, California is falling apart. LA is a disaster. Bob and Josh are just like, we're dropping 12,500,000,000. We're setting a new record. We're going.