Jimmy Iovine on AI, music licensing, the broken streaming model, and why software companies can't build hardware

Speaker 1: Your AI agents can now create and modify your Figma files with design system context. Up next, have Jimmy Iovine in person. Nice to see you. He is the co founder

Speaker 4: An honor.

Speaker 1: Interscope Record.

Speaker 8: How you doing, man?

Speaker 1: We're doing fantastically. How are

Speaker 8: you? Good.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on down.

Speaker 8: Hey. It wasn't easy. You're far from my house, but it's cool.

Speaker 4: Coming in from?

Speaker 8: Malibu.

Speaker 4: There we go. Do that drive I do that drive every day too.

Speaker 8: Oh, you're Mount? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Senra, me, Huberman, you know? We got a little podcast dynasty out there.

Speaker 8: Oh, great. Great. I'll give you my number. We're out there. Me and my family. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 4: And Ben too. Ben Taft.

Speaker 8: Really?

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 8: Fantastic. That's great.

Speaker 4: We're all out there.

Speaker 8: That's great.

Speaker 1: How are things going at USC?

Speaker 8: Well, you know, we started this we started the school, you know, it's called IYA, and it's really a school of innovation. Yeah. What happened was in 2014, we sold Beats headphones to Apple. And Beats Music to Apple.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And at Beats, we had a similar experience where we couldn't find people that could collaborate the way Andrei and I wanted them to collaborate.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: You know, so we kinda got into that. We just we would it was very, very difficult. They either were an engineer, design, business. It just they couldn't speak the same language. They didn't understand the why of the other person. So, when we went to Apple, it was that on steroids for us, you know. They're a great company, the best company, you know. But we found that at every company we went to, that everything was very siloed and communication, understanding was siloed.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: Not some not just people, but understanding. Mhmm. And so one day I woke up and I just called Drei. I said, Drei, know, the problems that we're having you know, Drei and I really didn't go to school much, you know. And I said, but I got a feeling that this is a problem in education. People are learning in a siloed way. You see, 19 to 25 and 26, I don't know about you guys, but that's a big imprint on your life.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: You know, it's like, you learn a lot in the formative years. Those are really import they were very important for me. Yeah. And I guess that's kinda why the age of college.

Speaker 1: And getting like varied experiences I feel is so important. When I think about my era from 20 from '19 to '26, I studied economics, I learned to program, I started a business, I filmed videos, did marketing. I I it blend it helps to blend all these things together. How old are you? I'm 37.

Speaker 8: Yeah. So you you are you're you're young enough to grow up in a really multidisciplinary environment. But importantly, like a lot of

Speaker 1: that was on my own. I just had to go That's my point. Yeah. I had to do it myself.

Speaker 8: That's my point. Yeah. So now when you come out of high school Yeah. They silo you. Yeah. Totally. Okay. You're gonna go work with 60 engineers

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Every day. You're gonna go with Yeah. Go to Wharton, but you're gonna be with 45 accountants every day.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And there's something wrong with that.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: So, you know, we stepped in, went to USC and

Speaker 1: How do you map that to or match that with this idea of putting on the blinders? Why does a racehorse wear blinders? Right?

Speaker 8: Well, because every we live in a world now, it's worse than ever Yeah. With social media. Yeah. Everyone cares so much about what somebody else thinks.

Speaker 1: Oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 8: I mean, you guy we have people just all day, what do they think of my post? What do they think of my orange what do they think of my orange juice? Who cares?

Speaker 7: Yeah. You know what I mean?

Speaker 8: Would you go to a grocery store and ask everybody what they think? Yeah. You know? Anyway, I'm an older guy, so it doesn't make any sense to me. But, you know, but that's the blinders. The blinders are very simple. Run your own race. Yeah. But enter that race with the understanding and the empathy Yeah. Of other disciplines.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 8: We all have that problem in any company you have. The extreme tech side and the extreme design side have trouble communicating.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Maybe not everyone at every company, but most people at most companies. Yeah. And then when you you know, remember we brought 300 people from the creative business into Apple, basically, you know. And Apple's an incredible company, but it's and it's the best of them, by the way. Mhmm. By the way. But it's all somewhat siloed. Of course.

Speaker 4: Do you think entrepreneurial people know that they're entrepreneurial for the most part? And I ask that because do you find with the school, there's people that maybe that that aren't applying to be a part of the program, but you actually wanna go and find those people or or Well generally are these people like self selecting and they and they just know they part They of

Speaker 8: know that there aren't many schools that fit who they are. Sure. Right? And a lot, we get a lot of applicants and that's because we fit, we're speaking their language, you know. And think about this, we started this in 2012. Mhmm. Now, a lot of schools are saying, okay, we offer multidisciplinary life. You know, they say, okay, you're in an engineering school, but you can go take one course across the hall Yeah. And sit, you know, that's not the joke. No. The the what it is is what companies want. Actually, we did research at USC to find what what type of students they want. Number one came back collaborative innovation.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 8: And that's the foundation, you know, our school is really Iovine Young Academy for Innovation. We put in the beginning, tech, design and artwork because we wanted to explain it. Yeah. We wanted to make it literal, like, you know, rock to the forehead kind of, you know, messaging. So, but now, it's fundamentally the Iovine Young Academy of Innovation. Mhmm. And because people can't, you need to collaborate to innovate. Mhmm. And you know, look, I'll give you an example. People say, how do you know there were problems at at these companies like this? Well, I've been to a lot of them, but I have proof. Here's my proof. Why is it that so few, I want be generous, so few software companies have built successful commercial hardware, consumer electronics.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Why is that?

Speaker 1: No founders in the seats. Run by committee?

Speaker 8: Because, no, they can't collaborate.

Speaker 1: They can't collaborate.

Speaker 8: They can't collaborate.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: You know, now, you know, I mean, Meta's gotten this this piece of hardware out there right now, but they went to I mean, it looks like it looks like they went to Ray Ban, you know. I mean, and it's cool, it'll do okay, know, it'll do fine, whatever. They're a great company, but none of these companies can make hardware, and they all have hardware envy.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 1: All of them. Yeah.

Speaker 8: You know, and so there's a reason for that. Yeah. And my and my thesis, and mine and Dre's thesis is that this is why. Yeah. Because what was so great about, what is so great about Apple, because it's still in their DNA, is they had Steve Jobs.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: He was the ultimate cross disciplinary human being. Mhmm. Was his in his DNA, where tech meets liberal arts. And when I went, the first time I went up there in 2003, I got it in thirty seconds, because I had gone to five other companies before that and talked to them about piracy and all that stuff. I was on a can't kick about that, you know. And I was the the minute I had hello, I met him in ADQ, I said, okay, this is where the party is. You know, and I just went back, I told the people Doug Morris at Universal who was in charge of the place. I said, license this guy. Yeah. Because they they know a lot more about this than anybody in our business and they have feel. Okay? So this this school is truly designed behind that meeting. Mhmm. I know it sounds simple, but look, we had an idea. I woke up one day and I called Dre. I said, Dre, what about starting a school like this? Hell yeah. You know, by the way, he really talks like that. So we wrote a check for $70,000,000 in a month. That's crazy. We're just on one line knowing nothing about education. And we built what I consider a fabulous school.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you think that there is a is a trap to be avoided with the school around students becoming tracked? Like, they've done the interdisciplinary work and they see this as the best way to get a job at Apple or the best way to get a job at a startup. And in fact, they should be sort of laying back and watching opportunity come to them during this period.

Speaker 8: Well, first of all, they're 22 years old. They can go get a job at Apple and still go change the world. That's true. You know, Steve Steve Jobs had a job. Yeah. For Apple, right? Yeah. So, know, nothing wrong with getting experience. I I think it's actually good.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: But it's more important, I mean, look, even the engineering degree, you could see is trying to expand. They get it. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: You can't just it's really not a good environment to work where people just don't understand each other fundamentally. It's it's empathy.

Speaker 1: Do you think that as technology grows and technology progresses, that is creating like a natural widening force? Because it used to be that the instrument was technology, but it was understandable by an artist and now the technology might be seven layers deep in some AI thing that's so abstract and so obscure that that creates

Speaker 8: in 2012, I couldn't spell AI. Yeah. You know. So I had no idea, but it's we built a school that's perfect for it.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 8: You know? Yeah. And because it's what it it makes so much common sense. Yeah. Inside these companies, if you understand the why of the other discipline. Mhmm. Otherwise, you're walking, it's a crash.

Speaker 7: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: You know? And that's why Apple can still make great software and great hardware. That that DNA is in those people. Mhmm. It's in Tim Cook. It's in Eddie Q, you know. And now, I don't know this fellow, John, but I'm sure he was brought up in the same school.

Speaker 1: Yeah. No. He's been there a long time.

Speaker 8: But that's a question that should be asked and will probably never be answered, but why do software companies fail when they go to make hardware?

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's tricky. A lot of them have tried. A lot of them have tried.

Speaker 8: Are you kidding?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Yes.

Speaker 1: Basically all of But

Speaker 8: there has to be a reason, Yeah. My reason is better than anybody else's. Maybe somebody else come up with a better idea. But my reason is very convenient for my school.

Speaker 7: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

Speaker 1: That's good.

Speaker 4: Do you think more entrepreneurs should go back to to the university that that they graduated from and teach a course? Like something that's there's so many lessons that I didn't learn in school and I I won't claim to be an expert on on many things, but if I even had to put together like ninety minutes, I feel like I could save my younger self a lot of time. And it's maybe Of

Speaker 8: course, they should. Everyone should give back. I mean, I think a lot of people do. I see you at UC all the time. I mean, they have they have alumni giving hundreds of millions of dollars to these schools, you know. And I show up, I'm sure they go back and talk at them and everything. I spend a lot of time at the school. Mhmm. I try to be very involved, you know. I do.

Speaker 4: Do you think you would have dropped out of your own school? Like, the younger version You of your

Speaker 8: know, here's the thing. If there was I'd have to go for a lot of therapy on dealing with dyslexia first.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 8: You know? I had a lot of trouble reading, and paying attention.

Speaker 1: So I

Speaker 8: don't know what they call that as a there's names for them, you know, but I don't know. Maybe if there was a lot of Prozac back then, maybe I could have focused. But no, I got into I I I just what I got into is I got into I loved music. Right? Mhmm. So I got into music and engineering, which is sort of technology side. Right? So I started as a recording engineer.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: So you have to understand the basic principles of technology in order to run a console and

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: You know, fix microphones and do whatever you have to do, you know. So I got lucky. I didn't know what I didn't know I was doing that then, but, you know, I don't know. Not everybody can do that. Mhmm. So school is a great thing, but only if you're in an environment that's gonna enhance your creativity and who you are, not take one part of it and put it in a box.

Speaker 4: Yeah. The the funny thing for me is I it took me until I was an adult to realize that I was creative because I remember my, like, formative experience was was in early early school when I'd be in an art class and I'd be told draw this or do that or whatever. I just was not good at drawing. I never was good at drawing. And in my head, like creativity and art was all about drawing. Sure. Right? Because that was my first Yeah. Time like doing anything creative in a school setting. So I then I went like almost probably fifteen years thinking I'm not creative. Right? And so it took me to being an adult to realize that creativity can have all these Right? Other It's not just like can you draw a pretty picture. Right?

Speaker 8: Well, you could also, you could learn. You could learn creativity. You could learn taste. You could learn all those things. It's somewhere in you where you could learn it.

Speaker 7: That's

Speaker 8: cool. Absolutely. I had no taste when I walked into the record plant in John Lennon's studio in 1973. I had zero taste. I went from three albums with him, two albums with Springsteen, and one album with Patti Smith, and I left with taste. Do

Speaker 4: you but but I often find that a lot of people have great taste, but they don't have the ability to create things that meet their taste level. Like Well, that's taste can taste can be inherent in some people.

Speaker 8: You know? What you do then is you have an eye for people that do have the gift.

Speaker 7: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: And you surround yourself

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: With them. You know, I learned that at 19 years old. I I came from I was living in my mother's house in Brooklyn, in Red Hook, Brooklyn. My father was a lone short man. And I met John Lennon and Bruce Springsteen. I did those records, and I got an apartment. I said, okay. I meet people like this, my life is gonna be okay. I just gotta make sure that I don't get thrown out of the room.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Mhmm.

Speaker 8: So when you're running a company, leave your ego out of it and realize somebody does something better than you. And don't defend anything. Don't defend your ignorance. You know. Just go for it and just say, okay, this person's great. I'm going to be of service to this person Yeah. Even if they work for you. Yeah. To get them loyal to your company and loyal to you. And, you know, that's what I always do. I just I got a pretty good eye for seeing who's gifted and I make try to make their life as great as possible. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Yeah. That resonates on a smaller scale where I I knew I would I'm not great at I'm not great at design, I'm not great at, you know, drawing out a logo, for example, but I can find people that can make great logos and and I realized I could at least work with

Speaker 8: Headphones. Yeah. Yeah. We come out of music, me and Dre, so people used to go, well, course, you guys are in a recording studio, of course you knew how to make headphones.

Speaker 7: I even didn't make Where would you

Speaker 8: spell that? If you gave Bruce Springsteen two pieces of wood, he's not coming out with a guitar.

Speaker 1: No way.

Speaker 8: Okay? Or Keith Richard. Yeah. So we had to go and learn. What we did was we found people that really were good at this. Mhmm. And bring them in, and we just added the idea of what was wrong. What was wrong is that everyone was listening to music, an entire generation, including yours and yours, on those little free earbuds that Apple would give out.

Speaker 3: That's right.

Speaker 8: So Dre said to me, man, that's I spend all day in the studio and my kids are listening on these ridiculous things. So we said, okay. So then we decided we're going to make a headphone. Then everyone tells us you can't to get a great headphone, they'd be like $300 at retail. They said, that's not going to work because Apple gives them away for free and so does Samsung. Mhmm. We said, okay, our job is to get them on people's head. Mhmm. Once they hear it, they're not going back. And that's what we did. So, we brought culture and we got them on people's head to try them. And then once young people started trying them, they wanted it for Christmas.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Was that expensive? I remember the story of you paying to advertise G Thing. Right? Or

Speaker 8: That was a song.

Speaker 7: That was

Speaker 1: a That was a song. But but it was a contrarian move because I feel like pulling the trigger on a big ad spend before an artist has really broken through is risky, but I that changed your

Speaker 8: I don't I don't know how to spell risk either. Okay. You know what I mean? I just I just I do I wake up in the morning and I do what I feel. Yeah. And I do what makes sense. I talk to the people that are around me, and I don't care about the risk. I really don't. I never did. I just do what's right for the project. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, you cut a lot flack because, you know, when you're at a big company or something, they budgets and things like that. But I I I just get myself in situations where I leave them if I can't just do what I wanna do. Sure. You know?

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 8: I try to make a life of just doing what I wanna do.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 4: Over the years, how how did you think about bringing in new business partners? You have some early success working with some set of people, you start meeting other great people. In your mind, how are you deciding whether to spend time and partner with Well, new people versus sticking with the band?

Speaker 8: I'm very I'm very positive person. So I always give people the benefit of the doubt and try it, you know. And you could tell pretty quick if something's gonna work or it's not. If it's not, say sorry. And if it does, go in further. I try a lot of things. Mhmm. You know, I'm not it's I'm not precious about anything. Once I figure what I'm doing, I'm precious about that.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Mhmm.

Speaker 8: But as far as the education and learning how to get look, we would have never done this school. Yeah. I mean, you know, if we would have been nervous about things, I mean, knew nothing about what we were doing. Yeah. And I think we have one of the best, if not the best school in this area in the country.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: You know? So,

Speaker 1: that's a good thing. There's a, obviously, a big technological transition in music with AI. Going back maybe before streaming, what was the first technological shift you remember in the music industry?

Speaker 8: I mean, Nap Napster, you mean?

Speaker 1: Yeah. We had before before Napster even. Was

Speaker 8: that Well, before Napster there? Mean, we I go back a long time. You know? Stereo.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 8: You know, multi track recording, you know, where do you wanna start? It

Speaker 1: just Yeah. But what was that like? Was there a discussion about it or was it something that just, you know, was adopted behind the scenes and the consumer of

Speaker 8: music It's always the because the stuff like that, it was expensive. Was always the professionals, Like you you could hear the first time a phaser, one of the first times a phaser was used on a record in Jimmy Hendrix. Sure. Know. You could hear when the Beatles got stereo. They walked in the studio one day Yeah. Because I knew those guys and and there was two speakers instead of one. Yeah. You know, Paul will tell you, he has told people that he said, okay. They thought at the beginning, oh, twice as loud,

Speaker 1: you Yeah. But There's more to it.

Speaker 8: There's more to it. So, you know, it gone all the way. There's drum machines. Yeah. Drum machine was big. Yeah. You know, I I I was fortunate because Roger Lynn used to be a guitar player and he was playing on one of my sessions when he was creating this thing. He had the computer in there with him. Was creating a drum machine. Yeah. So I got to see that really early on, but then Prince exploded it. Yeah. You know? So AI is, you know, it's a little different.

Speaker 1: Do you think people thought it was a risk? I mean, I know risk is not in your vocabulary, but for Prince to adopt the drum machine.

Speaker 8: It was bold. Bold. It was very bold. Okay. Because remember, this guy is a great, great musician

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: That had the greatest musicians playing around him.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: So he said, I'm gonna simplify. I'm gonna go to a drum machine. Yeah. That's bold Mhmm. And brilliant. And he he was one of the guys that exploded it, you know, that really took it went all the way.

Speaker 1: Yeah. The boldness that feels like that's an they're like, when you're thinking about stereo or the drum machine or synthesizers, there's the an opportunity for boldness on the side of the musician. Yeah. Did that same opportunity for boldness exist in the streaming transition, in the social media era, in the AI era?

Speaker 8: Streaming okay. Let's go to streaming. Yeah. Right? Streaming, you have to go to iTunes first.

Speaker 7: Yeah.

Speaker 8: That was very bold.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: Because the record industry didn't wanna license it.

Speaker 7: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: You know, musicians didn't wanna sell their songs at a dollar a time.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 8: But on the other, but out the back door, they were being given away on m p three

Speaker 7: Yeah. You

Speaker 8: know, all day, right? So, what Steve and Eddie had was a really good idea, an elegant way to match their iPod. Mhmm. You know, they had a piece of software that was really elegant and it worked. And these guys understood the culture. Steve, my first five conversations with Steve Jobs was about John Lennon and Bob Dylan. He really cared and understood. Hey, you went out with Joan Baez. Right? So he understood the the culture. Yeah. And he understood, he had a feel for it, So you that was a big step.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: And then streaming was another big step. Daniel Ek was a brilliant guy, you know. We came to the market. We had Beats Music and Interscope and we sold to Apple and that and then we started we worked with the guys up there and and made Apple Music.

Speaker 1: Mhmm. How do you think streaming changed music production or the decisions that musicians make? I mean, I've heard at least anecdotal evidence that albums got longer or there's more songs because that gives you more shots to go viral in the algorithm.

Speaker 8: Social media. Okay. Social media, unfortunately, like a thing like TikTok, it's it's in a lot of ways, it's great because it gave artists power Mhmm. And a platform to market themselves, which is what artists want and need and should have. But it also made a lot of artists and record company people chase that.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 8: Whatever the latest TikTok thing is, and that could be pretty ridiculous at Right? So I think that affected music more sonically

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: And creatively than streaming did, personally. Maybe more songs or whatever. Yeah. Great. But even that more songs thing came out of SoundCloud

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And TikTok and Instagram, just putting stuff out.

Speaker 4: Yeah. I was was talking to a buddy of mine in Malibu and he's produced twenty, thirty Billboard number ones, like really really impressive career. And he's, for decades now, received people will send him demos and he he always says he likes to listen because he wants to be working with, you know, up and coming talent. And he said, over the last year, it's become harder to judge who's who's got potential and who doesn't because because of AI. Because anybody can make a song that sounds at least decent and maybe there's a thread of a good idea in there. And so he said it's just become impossible to understand. And to me that signals that it's gonna become even harder to break into the music business because and suddenly anyone can make a song. Right? Like, Suno, shockingly quickly in about takes, in my experience, about ten seconds to And make there's patterns you can you

Speaker 8: Where do you want to start with this? You just cover a lot of ground, okay?

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. But I guess my main question is like, does it become these previous technology trends in music, the professionals, the existing professionals got access to them first. They were expensive to adopt, things like that. Now with AI, anybody in the entire world can get access to it. And I'm wondering, does that mean you're gonna have a lot more people breaking into the music industry or or less just because competition is like

Speaker 8: Well, do you wanna talk about the licensing of AI, the actual use of AI or the production of it? Where do you want to start? Right? You know, where

Speaker 4: Well, specifically, what is it What do you think it means for emerging talent?

Speaker 8: Well, let's use the word talent. If you really have talent, it'll help you. It'll help you create as a tool, you know what I mean? It's like, you asked the right question. Stereo.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 8: It made Sgt. Pepper better.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Okay? Yeah. The drum machine made Prince's first album fantastic, you know, or second album, whatever that was. You know, so I think as a tool, it's gonna be fabulous. You know, a lot of these companies that are creating AI music right now are doing so on unlicensed music in mass, like 60,000,000 tracks or something Well, like those, in my opinion, those are gonna be like the kazar of this moment. It's gotta get under control to a certain extent that there should be, I mean, this particular case, there there's gonna be some kind of government regulations or there should be something. Right? Yep.

Speaker 1: For proper licensing. If you use Yes. These three influences in the creation of this AI song, those three artists get compensated.

Speaker 8: That's right. The prompts the prompts should get paid.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 8: Right? Yeah. So, but there's a lot of cowboys they're going to run around doing this stuff, you know, but that's not I don't think that's where the, it's going to shine, you know, like can people make songs, you know, easier, lower, blah, Can somebody who was Instagram influencer go out and make a song because they know how to dance and jump around and get people's attention? Possibly. But there's crap now. There'll be crap then, there'll be crap now, maybe the crap will get more interesting, who knows? But as far as the great artists, you know, Kendrick Lamar, Alicia, Olivia Dean, you know, some great people that are CMAT, some of these young artists that are just, know, Saint Harrison. Some of these great, great, that could sing Harrison, there ain't no way I can sing like that kid. Yeah. You know? So, something like that, you know, is you know, not not gonna they're they're gonna be there. Because you what AI can't do is grow up in a terrible home. AI can't have a broken heart.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 8: You know? So, know, AI is not gonna be Dolly Parton.

Speaker 1: Art has always been about stories. You look at the modern art museum and there's the constant refrain, my kid could have drawn that, but you didn't and there's not providence and there's not a journey and a story

Speaker 8: don't, behind I'm not afraid of AI and I met a lot of people that are working on it and none of them truly scare me, you know. Yeah. It's just, or should scare anyone for that matter you know, so I think it's a tool. Think Dre said last week on some interview that it's a tool Yeah. And that's what it is. But the licensing, the artist that it's learning off of, the way this product is look, when the Beatles came out, they were influenced by rich by Little Richard

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And Buddy Holly. Right? Yeah. They didn't get paid. But now, if you're influenced by the Beatles and Doctor Dre, they will get paid.

Speaker 1: And there's

Speaker 8: And I gotta tell this. I I you everyone's always tough on the labels. But I think I'm watching the labels closely and I talk to the guys that are running it quite a bit because I've known them all for years.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: I think they're handling this problem right in the beginning because they have to the the things that are out there just randomly licensing, not licensing, ignoring it

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And thinking that they're gonna I I think that's I don't I don't think that works. Mhmm. It most certainly doesn't I grew up I grew up for the first eighteen years of my life relying on musical artists.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 8: They changed my life and a lot of peoples around me's life. So, that music deserves to be paid.

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 8: You don't just come in and think, I don't believe I don't believe that. So I but I'm an older you know, I I, you know, I've been around a long time, so some things are good about that, and some things get a little stale.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: But I believe that how the labels are handling those particular cases is the right way.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, the technology should be able to help here. Of course, there needs to be legal precedent. But I mean, if you look at the way YouTube's handled it, if I upload a video with a doctor Dre song on it, that's that that that the any money that I earn

Speaker 8: from that's gonna route wasn't.

Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Wasn't. But pretty quickly, and why they sold to Google was they had to pay out a bunch of money.

Speaker 8: Well, because that's going to happen here too.

Speaker 1: Exactly.

Speaker 8: You know? But but

Speaker 1: The money will flow though.

Speaker 8: But, what but the chain reaction that this causes unfortunately, is the license, the people that are giving out licenses shrink. Sure. They shrink what they're gonna, they they lessen what they're gonna do, and it's gonna cause a lot of this product that everybody's excited about to really be dumbed down.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That makes sense.

Speaker 8: Alright? So, you know, there are a couple of companies that have gotten licensed, I guarantee you, I don't know, but I guarantee you, in my opinion, sense. That those that product would be dumbed down.

Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that

Speaker 8: You know, so where the thing will shine is when you get producers that learn how to do this. Yeah. You know? When when Stereo first came out in Extreme, there were records, Beatle record, where the drums were on the right and the vocal was on the left. Alright? But then people learn how to

Speaker 1: Blend things together.

Speaker 8: Blend. So a lot of producers are using AI right now and it's really helping them.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 8: I mean, what they do is they they even copy the AI, you know, the the idea. What's gonna break it'll break a log it breaks a logjam in your head.

Speaker 1: That the best way that you see artists using AI as essentially pre visualization like what happened?

Speaker 2: That's what

Speaker 8: I see. The guys that I know, you know, the producers that I know, I talk to them, you know, and I I I keep in touch with a lot of producers because I was a producer and I relate in the record business. I'm I really relate to record producers that had journey and stuff, you know? So when I was at Innoscope, it was driven by record producers, you know, Swizz Beatz, Pharrell, Dre, Timberland, you know, Will. I. Am, Polo Rodan, all these guys who were at Innoscope at one time or another, I hope I didn't leave anybody out, I'm sure I didn't, I'm sorry. But, you know, they they are learning how to use this. They, it will come from them. Mhmm. And, yeah, they'll be, look, there there are artists out now that can barely sing happy birthday. Okay.

Speaker 1: About that.

Speaker 8: Okay. So so what's the difference between if you can barely sing happy birthday, if you can't sing happy birthday at all. Right? So that, they will always be boring, silly, you know

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Records like that. Right? But the great artists and the great producers will maybe

Speaker 7: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: Create real masterpieces. Mhmm. You know, because of this, it'll spark something. So I'm very pro AI. I just think Mhmm. That in the beginning there's always the wild west in anything like this. You just got you've seen it enough, you just go, okay, it'll but I I I the the guys that are running the labels are really trying to do the right thing here. Mhmm. And I think in this particular case, the artist and the labels are aligned.

Speaker 1: Yeah. That's a good point.

Speaker 4: Yeah. What do you think so so knowing some of these entrepreneurs that are building in the space, they would push back and say this within streaming, if somebody was illegally streaming or pirating a song, they are taking a product that an artist and a label produced and they're just consuming that product without without paying, that is objectively wrong. In this situation, they are training on a bunch of music to create something entirely new off of that and they would argue that

Speaker 8: That's fair use?

Speaker 4: They would argue that that's fair use in the way that, like you said, the Beatles, you know, had their own inspiration.

Speaker 8: I know, but that that's the argument, right? Is it fair use or is it a fair use? The artist and the labels think it's not fair use, and somebody who's making a lot of money on a new company thinks it is fair use, But

Speaker 4: here's Those

Speaker 8: are very some convenient arguments.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and these companies are making money providing a tool. And I'm not I'm actually not taking it aside one way or another, but they're making an art they make money from selling a tool that lets you create music. And but the the what's also happening is people are creating that music, and then they're going back to the labels, and they're going back to artists, and they're making new music that then gets listened to and monetized the normal way. So I would argue in some ways that the music industry and artists are, yes, their music is being used to train models that then create other music, but they are also beneficiaries of that.

Speaker 8: Yeah, but there are some people that are dead. Sure.

Speaker 7: Yeah. So,

Speaker 8: you know, Wilson Pickett is not gonna go out and make a new record. So if you're learning on Wilson Pickett, I believe that his estate should make money. I believe that if you're learning on, you know, some some somebody who's around today, George not George Harrison, you know, like, any of the artists that are around today, where you're learning from their music, they should get the prompts should get paid. Yeah. It's gonna be hard to monitor, hard to police and all that stuff, but they but they'll figure that out, you know. I just don't think that, it's I don't think it's fair use. I don't think it's free.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: You know? I just don't.

Speaker 1: That's what Rob I'm Media addiction trials, like big settlements can come decades down the road and be basically benchmarked to revenue and and the money can flow, but it takes a long time to go through the court system. That's just the way

Speaker 8: things are You in know, it's so what? But it has to be done right and

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 8: It's a wonderful technology for music. It's fantastic. But, you know, there's got to be deals made. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Course. Of course. Yeah. Always. What do you think about the future of live performances in the Age of AI? It feels like it could be a really important proof of humanity, proof of talent. I went to the show. Sure, maybe there was some auto tune in the loop, but I watched them perform. And if they can perform to a certain level, that gives me more confidence in the rest of their livelihood.

Speaker 8: I happen to be fortunate. I have a really good friend in that business named Michael Rapino. He's the the CEO of Live Nation. Yeah. I I learn a lot about the live business from him. Plus, I grew up with my friends playing live all the So time, you I I think live is live, you know. Do do you want to see somebody performing live, spilling their guts on the stage or do you want to see a hologram or something, you know, I don't know. I'd rather see the person live because they're they're just more exciting. So, I don't know. I don't think there's any problem with that. I don't think there's I don't think it crosses. I just don't see it, you know. I don't see it, I don't know the future, have no idea. I'm not going to be here anyway. So, but but it's, you know, I don't know. I have no idea.

Speaker 1: I would just expect it to to to grow. I don't know. It it feels like the the eras tour was such a moment, and there's these certain moments that happen in American culture where shelling points, everyone comes together around a certain thing and

Speaker 8: Like, you know, it it to me, it's simple. Yeah. You got a new technology. Yeah. It's gonna be great. It is great, and it's gonna be even better. People are gonna use it. Yeah. But there's gonna be licenses, and there's gonna be Of course. People get paid for.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And then the great talent and the great artists are gonna show the world how to use it.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 8: It's that simple to Yeah. It happens every time.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: You know? So I'm not I I I it all comes down to what we talked about first, which is which is what's great about this is it's teaching young people, that's where multidisciplinary behavior comes in. This is technology. Mhmm. You're creative. Mhmm. Right? So when you really understand technology and you really understand the creative, you're gonna really do well. Yeah. So, but you so you shouldn't be siloed in school. You shouldn't go to a school where all you do is play the guitar all day. You know what I mean? It's just to me, that doesn't work. Yeah. It's I mean, Juilliard's a nice place and I'm glad it exists, but or Berkeley, whatever, you know, but it's not it's not where I see the world going. And not if anybody cares, but me personally, I'm on this show as you two guys care. So

Speaker 1: Do you think AI can help bridge that original gap that we were talking about? When I think about what it takes for a creative person to build a hardware product, for example. There's a lot of technical hurdles that can now be broken down Before

Speaker 8: there were things to break it down.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Let's put it this way. Dre and I had a record company. Yeah. Okay? We're creative people. We're both record producers. We built the biggest headphone company in the world. That's hardware. Yeah. And the reason why it's hard because it's goddamn hard. Yep. Okay? That's why not not everybody does it. So we did it. Yeah. Right? We're creative guys that built a piece of hardware. That's why we started the school. Yeah. It it's all needs to be working together. Yeah. You know? And we we built the number one Beats was the number one headphone in 50 countries when we sold to Apple. Yeah. So we did it. Yeah. And because we live in a multidisciplinary world. We were both recording engineers, me and Dre.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And so we come from the non wall background. Mhmm. Know? And so that's why we built a

Speaker 1: school. Yeah.

Speaker 8: It's that's it. And, you know, it's but when I go when you go look at these these most companies right now, technology, design, engineering, design

Speaker 3: Yep.

Speaker 8: There's a lack of communication and a lack of understanding.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Again, I asked the question again in case somebody just tuned in. Yeah. Why can software companies not build really successful consumer products? Yeah. There has to be an I don't have the answer, but you guys are really smart, and you talk to everybody in the world. Yeah. I don't know why.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's tough.

Speaker 8: You know? But there has to be something at the core of what's going on that challenges that. I mean, no one can say, no, he's wrong. No, I'm right.

Speaker 4: No, you're Yeah, you know, one of the things you brought up Meta. No, no, no, You brought up Meta.

Speaker 7: One of

Speaker 4: the, I think one of the reasons that's been successful is they didn't try to reinvent too many things. They just made a good looking pair of glasses that also had a camera in it. And that was enough. That's been enough.

Speaker 8: But they sold 2,000,000. Yeah. They didn't sell 20,000,000. We sold 2,000,000 headphones in Brooklyn, you know. It's not a really it's not a massively successful Yeah.

Speaker 1: Wired Oculus to get the to get the

Speaker 8: By whole project the way, in fairness

Speaker 4: I would argue that. Different.

Speaker 8: I have a pair and I enjoy using it. Yeah. It's fun. But that does not a story make yet.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 8: They make now I know who they hired, the head of the hardware division, and he's really good. Mhmm. So, but are there people at that company that can really communicate and and empower him and that type of stuff? I don't know. Right? I don't know. Meta's a great company. Mark Zuckerberg is brilliant. Yeah. But do I know about that? I don't know. They did they've done a good job at getting that product out.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Do you is is I feel like one of the big the big lessons that people in the school should should hopefully should hopefully be imprinted on their minds is that you can be wildly successful in business without creating anything that's exactly new. Right? Like you you guys didn't create you created desire and you created an amazing product, but you didn't create the headphone. And I think that when a lot of people think about entrepreneurship and creativity and business, they think I need to come up with some totally novel idea. Right?

Speaker 7: Well, it's

Speaker 8: your thoughts out by, I don't think I'm Steve Jobs. Okay?

Speaker 4: Even Steve didn't he didn't the didn't create the phone.

Speaker 8: No. But he he had a much bolder attitude towards life than I did. He's much smarter than I am. Right? Somebody asked me what's difference between you and Steve Jobs? They're very simply smarter than me. When we were hanging out together. But no, you don't have to invent something new. I mean, headphones weren't new, but the attitude of headphone was Yeah. Bose was out there saying, buy my headphone for $300 and we're going to help you sleep. We were like, this is taking candy from a baby. Yeah. Right? Yeah. We are not going to help you sleep. Yeah. You know, we are going to rock your head.

Speaker 1: The ads were silence, not music. Know, was the opposite of music.

Speaker 8: Exactly. So we had a real edge there.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And they all looked like medical equipment.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 8: So your job as an entrepreneur is to find that hole Yeah. In the market, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Where's there a hole? We knew there was a hole there because Dre, first of all, most computers had their speakers facing the table. Yeah. So that was like, okay, great, let's face them up. Yeah. You know, we're geniuses, let's

Speaker 7: go to the computer, you know,

Speaker 8: right? So

Speaker 4: No, there's so many times when you're looking at different categories, specifically with, I I find it with consumer products where you're like, is there like a law that says that it has to be done this And No. Oftentimes you do a little bit of research and you realize We're

Speaker 8: going back to the to understanding each other.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Right?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Computers, like I went to a couple of computer companies, not Apple, right? And I witnessed this firsthand to where engineering audio, the audio budget in a speed in a computer at the time was 50¢.

Speaker 1: Wow.

Speaker 8: Okay? Wow. It's nothing. Right. It's nothing. So you wanna know why and music was being played through it.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 8: Guess what? That's not enough. Yeah. You know? So, but that's where the breakdown is. Yeah. Because design and engineering clash.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And that's where, I keep saying it over and over again, it's true, that's where our school comes in to help training people that are going to become the new engineers and the new designers and the new entrepreneurs to understand the why of each other's discipline. You know, it sounds like kumbaya, but it's not. You know, it's real.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Was there anything else you looked at in terms of product ideas, business ideas before settling on headphones or was

Speaker 8: it Well, it came out of a real frustration of the record business because record business, again, the record business at a time was really cool and, you know, music was the right thing to do and all that. But when when when I met Steve and those guys, cool had moved the technology and I felt it. You know, I felt I felt the shift and I said, okay. The first guy that was really cool with technology was Morita from Sony. The original founder of Sony. He had the Walkman, you He really got it. Oga, who replaced him, really got it. They he bought Columbia Pictures and Columbia Records.

Speaker 1: That's right.

Speaker 8: Right? And then they kind of screwed it up because they got and that gave Steve, that gave Apple the opening

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 8: To go take that idea

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Which Steve has said many times publicly.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And so, when I saw that, I said we have to learn a new trick. We have to move lat I believe companies need to move laterally. Mhmm. I do. I felt the in I felt record companies especially needed to move laterally. That's why we created Beats and Beats music inside of Interscope. Mhmm. We did it at the company. Mhmm. So we built a company in Beats that was bigger than Interscope in six years. Mhmm. Right? So obviously, tech and design and creativity all belongs in the same box. It's all just moving your company lateral. Like, we have a company called Complex right now. Yeah. And what we're trying to do there, we brought back Marc Echo, we have Arora Levant, my son Jamie's there. And we're trying, we have a real, a lot of really good people and we're trying to mix disciplines in it and we are creating an AI product alongside of it that will blend all these things together and not all of them, but things that we have together because we're firm believers in that. You you know, the record industry needs to move laterally. They need to own the enterprise of AI, not just license to everyone. That's, you know

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Interesting.

Speaker 8: They should own the enterprise. Why not? You know, it is no reason why not. Instead of licensing to everyone

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Own the enterprise yourself.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Right? We own Beats.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Why is there so much historical sort of disaggregation in the music industry? Like, the the actual relationship between the artist and the end consumer, it's always been intermediated and it feels like that's been a problem.

Speaker 8: It's insane and it's ridiculous. Mhmm. Okay? All artists want is to able to communicate with their audience. Yeah. And ask me why Spotify and Apple Music don't have social.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: I know why Apple Music doesn't and I don't know why Spotify doesn't, but that's why I said on an interview once recently that streaming is is minutes away from being obsolete. What I meant by that is unless they adapt to what artists really want Mhmm. The artists are very resourceful. Mhmm. Right now they got to go to Instagram, TikTok, you know, it's like it's like a silly game. Yeah. And that has to be fixed. That has to be fixed quickly because and the labels who have all this historic music need to be in the loop. They, whether they like it or not, they are a tech company. Mhmm. And they have to adjust to that. And if they don't, I believe it's not gonna be great for them.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. The the the Spotify story is interesting. I mean, Sean Parker obviously involved in both Facebook and Spotify. And so I think they had this like delicate truce. Because if you remember in the early days of Spotify, everything you'd listen to would be shared on Facebook. That was a huge growth driver.

Speaker 8: But that's not why Spotify is not social.

Speaker 1: No.

Speaker 8: I don't believe that. That's why Apple's not social because Apple Music because they don't look, when we were there, we wanted to buy Musically.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Woah. Woah. We

Speaker 8: brought those guys up there twice, but Apple doesn't do social and they shouldn't do social. Okay. I get why they shouldn't. Yeah. I was

Speaker 2: on the tail.

Speaker 8: Yeah. I was on the tail wagging the dog. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: I was on the tail. So, you know, I understood why I didn't do it. Yeah. But we, Trent Reznor and I instinctively knew, especially Trent

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 8: That we needed social.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And it's gonna be limited without that.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: So, you know, look, Apple, I I so far out of all the companies I found, they're they're still the most interesting, you know. Because they still have that DNA in them. Just said, we're not gonna, we don't do social. Fine. Mhmm. They don't. So that was not a good fit. Mhmm. You know, so, but that's cool. But doesn't mean that music doesn't need it. Right now, you're not giving the artist what they

Speaker 1: want. Yeah.

Speaker 8: And the pay structure in streaming is all screwed up. Mhmm. So if you're married, I see you're married, you got a ring on your fingers, or maybe you have kids. If you have two or three kids, you have the family plan.

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 8: If you listen to what's your favorite music? Don't take

Speaker 4: My favorite artist is Yeet.

Speaker 8: Yeet? Yeah. Oh, great. Okay. So you listen to that and your kids listen to? Alma. Oh, they're babies. Okay. Well, let's they listen to Taylor Swift and Kendrick Lamar, and you listen to Fleetwood Mac and

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And Madonna. Right?

Speaker 1: I'm paying, but the kids are listening disproportionately.

Speaker 8: Yes. They've been on the button all day. Yeah. Yeah. So guess who gets paid

Speaker 1: all you pay the bill but paid.

Speaker 4: Crazy.

Speaker 8: Yeah. But Fleetwood Mac doesn't get any

Speaker 4: is raking it in.

Speaker 7: Yeah. Exactly. No, seriously.

Speaker 8: Exactly. But that's that's the structure.

Speaker 1: So Yeah.

Speaker 8: Streaming is flawed

Speaker 1: Yep.

Speaker 8: And not complete. But Daniel's brilliant, Alex is really talented

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Those guys at Spotify, so they're going to figure a lot out. They may be thinking of a whole other paradigm that I don't even understand. Right? So, but someone who helped bring streaming service to light Yeah. I can tell you that they're all missing social.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Period. And that's why I have a crew of guys and girls that I work with. We're looking at something right now that's really interesting. We're doing it with one of the one of the main companies. And we have an idea that we believe is unique and good and great for the artist and great for the labels. Mhmm. And that's what we're gonna do.

Speaker 4: Yeah. We have we've had some guys from Spotify on and I think that one of the interactions I was most excited about that they've been working on and working towards is making sure that the people that are listening to artists the most get access to the concert tickets, right? Because an artist doesn't necessarily benefit if

Speaker 8: they Yeah, sell that's self serving, you know? I mean, I get it, but the artist should be doing that.

Speaker 4: Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Again, you don't need third parties to do a lot of this stuff, Why you why do the labels need third parties to deliver their music? I'll tell you why, they don't. Right? Yeah. But they do. Right? That all should evolve with the artist in the front of the paradigm, you know, making the money and doing great and communicating. So

Speaker 2: You're

Speaker 1: not You're not differently in in Hollywood with with Disney plus and and Hulu

Speaker 8: Well, that that venture Well, hang on. No? Yes and no. Well, I'll tell you why. Please. Because when Netflix came to town

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 8: They came to town with a big checkbook. Yeah. And unfortunately, all these companies are public. Now this, I'm gonna make this official. This is my opinion. Okay? But they all licensed them their music. At least most of them did. Why? Because they got big checks and helped make their numbers. Well, what? They created a monster.

Speaker 7: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1: They did.

Speaker 8: Alright? And now they're trying to catch up. Right? Music business is the same thing. They license their music to Spotify, Apple Music, and Amazon. Well, Spotify is worth more than all the labels together. Yeah. Guess what? Guess how much IP they own? Zero. Somebody's podcast maybe or something. Yeah. You know, maybe the Rogan. Yeah. I don't know.

Speaker 7: I don't

Speaker 8: even think we

Speaker 4: got Yeah. But

Speaker 8: that's but that's the point. So the movie business didn't get it. Yeah. They they got it late. At least they got it. Yep. And I think that's gonna happen in music. I think the music companies are, you know, are going to be more involved and AI is the opening to do it. Mhmm. AI is the road to that doesn't mean Spotify is not, but Spotify is going to have to morph as well. Mhmm. Okay? They can't just no ride goes forever. When I was a kid, not a kid, I'm sorry. I wasn't a kid. It was 2002. Mhmm. Just a I was nowhere

Speaker 4: near Just a a spring chicken.

Speaker 8: I was nowhere near a kid in 2002. But when I saw Piracy, I went and met with three tech companies. And one of the tech companies, very high up guy at Intel Mhmm. Said to me, Jimmy, this is a I started talking about the recording studio and the people that are suffering, and you know, that's not the big stars, it's the kids in the studios, and Mhmm. He said, what a fabulous story. He said, Jimmy, but not every industry was made to last forever.

Speaker 7: That was powerful. Right?

Speaker 8: I said, he's right.

Speaker 4: Sorry, this music thing had a good run

Speaker 8: about music. But it's not music, it's the business of music, what that looks like, right?

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: So I I carried that with me. Yeah. And then when I met Steve and Eddie after that, said, shit, these guys Mhmm. They're the next step.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Right? So there is a next step now, and and Spotify may grab it. Mhmm. You know, have all the tools available and the money, the capital and everything.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: So they could recreate their business all the time. And you got a guy like Alex running it who's really really talented. The people at Apple are really talented. You got Oliver and that team over there. They're all really good. So maybe they'll morph the company into something that it needs to be or maybe the labels will figure it out and they'll do more of what this new model needs to be. Mhmm. But to have, to be just a licensor of music, to me, first of all is boring.

Speaker 9: Mhmm.

Speaker 8: Second of all, has nothing to do with any other discipline in the world. Mhmm. It doesn't. Yeah. And you need to, to have a proper company today, you have to have blend of disciplines inside your company. Mhmm. Proven by two great, great people, Marita from Sony and Steve Jobs at Apple. Yeah. Period.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: They got it top to bottom, and they set the tone. Who out there doesn't want to be Steve Jobs? Right? They, you know, they they everybody's every he's the new Steve Jobs. This is he's the old Steve Jobs, you know. He's not Steve Jobs. He is Steve Jobs. Yeah. But

Speaker 4: Yeah. It's saying something I've never everyone wants to be and yet I've never seen someone and thought, damn, they're the new Steve Jobs.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Of course, they're they're missing what Steve was. Yeah. Steve was the ultimate. He knew it. He knew the goal was where technology and the liberal arts meet. And there's nothing more evident in that than in AI. Yeah. You know? So

Speaker 1: Do you think you would have liked AI?

Speaker 8: I don't know. I I can't I never tried. I was a friend of mine. Yeah. He has an incredible wife, Lorene Powell Jobs, who's an incredible human being. Yeah. And Johnny Iovine was

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 8: Incredible people. I can't speak for them. For Steve, he was his own guy, but, you know.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. A friend of the show was trying to compare AI messaging to the launch of GarageBand and democratization of creative tools and I thought I I I thought there were some good points there.

Speaker 8: Although he didn't like streaming. Yeah. He was very public about that. Yeah. But who knows what maybe

Speaker 1: he was right. Don't know. You mentioned the tail wagging the dog at Apple. If you're a tail, should you try and wag the dog? Is that advice that you would give to someone who works in a large organization if they're interdisciplinary?

Speaker 8: Well, when you what I was saying what I was saying is that, look, there's no there's no hiding it. Big companies, music, outside of music companies, nobody wants a tail wagging a dog.

Speaker 1: But is it a fool's errand to try?

Speaker 8: I I don't know. Mhmm. Don't know.

Speaker 1: Depends on the situation.

Speaker 8: I don't know. But but I always use Apple as an example because I think it's run really well.

Speaker 1: And

Speaker 8: they blend it as well as you could blend it. Steve was a big music guy and so So was they do it really well. But, you know, it's I don't I think I think the record company should do it. I really do. I I don't get it. I I think that they should do it. They should take it on themselves. And Spotify is a music company. They they can do it. Live Nation.

Speaker 4: Isn't there some interesting positioning that the record companies, at least if they banded together, could work with the artist to say, hey, you have not if you work with if you if you subscribe to Apple Music or Spotify, Spotify and Apple Music are taking a big cut. If you work with us, a lot more revenue is actually going to the artist. Is that is that like how you position it?

Speaker 8: I don't I don't I don't know. I don't know if that's if that's right. I just because it's it's hard it's a hard bell to unring.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 8: I'm a I'm a look at it streaming. That happened already. I don't think the label's gonna start streaming service. Mhmm. You know, not in any time short in the next few years anyway. But I do think there could be a new AI business.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Speaker 8: And that's where the opportunity lies and you have Spotify, you have the labels, you have the artists. So there's something in there that needs to evolve out of this that makes more sense. You know? And I I see I see it all together. I but I always have. That's why that's why we started the school we started. Yeah. It just all goes back to that. It's just the way people think. That's how we think.

Speaker 1: Yeah. I I mean, obviously, the answer is probably both, but I would It'd be interested to see if you're more optimistic about the entrepreneurship that comes out of your school or the transformation within within industry.

Speaker 8: No. The school was built to transform inside the industry.

Speaker 1: Okay.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Was it was built for jobs. It turned into an entrepreneurial place.

Speaker 1: Of course.

Speaker 8: You know, I guess we caught that wave. Yeah. You know, everybody wanting to be like one of these guys, Zuckerberg or something. Sure. But it was made to help communication inside Mhmm. Apple Yeah. Google, all these giant companies that are taking over the entertainment business Yeah. Literally.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8: So it's not going happen in my lifetime, but we wanted to build as many people as possible to infiltrate and help make that all one thing rather than have to be a tail wagging a dog, you know. I mean, look, Intel's buying Paramount and Warner, right? I mean, fundamentally, I mean, and David Ellison is terrific. Know, he's a really smart and and understands where these two things cross. So hopefully, there'll be some great stuff there.

Speaker 1: Yeah. It's gonna be exciting. Well, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Speaker 8: Hey, you're welcome.

Speaker 1: An honor and pleasure.

Speaker 8: It was fun.

Speaker 4: Let's do

Speaker 1: it again as we're making some

Speaker 4: more of these plays.

Speaker 8: Oh, I don't But it was you're you're very far from my house. Maybe if you come to my house, we can

Speaker 1: do it But over

Speaker 8: anyway, thanks all there's a big world behind me. I see that. Love that. Nice set. Yeah. Thank you. Lighting and so

Speaker 4: We reinvented television.

Speaker 1: Well, we will see you tomorrow at the lightning Thanks

Speaker 4: being folks.

Speaker 1: Sharp. Have a great rest of your day and goodbye.

Speaker 8: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Don't fade us out.