WIRED's Katie Drummond on interviewing Elizabeth Holmes: the TED Talk era made her fraud possible, and she still isn't showing scientific chops

Speaker 2: TBPN Ultram. Welcome. What's happening? How are doing? Welcome.

Speaker 1: We don't have I

Speaker 7: muted myself. Hi. Thanks for having me. How are you doing?

Speaker 1: Thanks for hopping.

Speaker 2: Great to have you.

Speaker 1: We're doing well. Congratulations on the... What do you call it? Exclusive?

Speaker 2: It's not a broke silence.

Speaker 7: Broke... Yeah. Exclusive cover star.

Speaker 1: Yes. Oh, yeah. And cover. Right? That's cool. Yeah. I like the... I I like the photography. Anyway, we could go deeper on that. But I I think everyone wants to know, like, you know, you've seen the movie. Everyone wants to know what everyone thinks about the movie. Like, did you Elizabeth Holmes looked less guilty after watching the movie? Equivalently guilty? More guilty?

Speaker 7: You know, my honest answer, I've seen it twice. Yeah. And the first time I saw it, I felt so much empathy for her. Yeah. I remember sitting there being like, this woman has kids, she's going to prison. I feel like she's being manipulated by these men in her Then I went back and saw it a second time, and I had done a bunch of rereading about Theranos

Speaker 1: in Well, the

Speaker 2: that's the thing. That's the thing. Part of what made it... You felt like a horrible situation. Right? You have young children, you're going to prison. And Nathan didn't exactly like... He could have spent twenty, thirty minutes like outlining...

Speaker 1: All the things that she did wrong.

Speaker 2: All these things and the the interpretation would would have been like, yeah, you 100% deserve this and like, I don't feel bad for you. But because it was like set up because it was set up, I think it was very much intentional that it was sort of like people were coming into it with their own Sure. Understanding of like the whole Theranos era and what actually went down.

Speaker 7: Well, I think and too, and I don't I don't wanna speculate. I mean, obviously, I interviewed Nathan. I I do not know him or the filmmakers particularly well. But he said very much in the interview, he is not a science journalist. Right? He read Bad Blood. He ran the he read the definitive book. But he is not sort of like student of Theranos. He is Nathan Fielder, he is like a student of human behavior. And I think we very much see that on display in the film. We don't see an interrogation of the science, we see much more of an interrogation of her as a person, Mhmm. And her family and their dynamics. And I find that to be very interesting, although for sure someone coming in cold who hasn't thought about Theranos in ten years, because we're not all thinking about Theranos all the time, is probably going to feel a complicated way about her.

Speaker 1: Totally. What open questions did you jump to researching right after you left the movie for the first time or the second time? The one that stuck out to me was that she tells this story about... And and we're gonna have spoilers in this interview just FYI. But she tells this story about how she adopted a husky in 2017 and then the husky is like not around and then they downgrade to like a lizard at one point. And I was like to go from a dog to a lizard is kind of a crazy move. Like I feel like people that are, you know, into reptiles like they've been like die hard reptiles. Like you kind of know if you're a cat person or a dog person like pretty early in your life and it's kind of wild to switch it up. And so I was like, how do you go from husky to to lizard or or I forget what exactly it is. Argentine blue tegu, I think is technically the name for that large lizard that they wind up having. But the the wolf dog, the husky, was killed by a cougar. Yeah. That's right. No. Isn't that crazy story? Yeah. This That

Speaker 7: is a crazy

Speaker 1: story. Mercury news. It's

Speaker 2: it's Suspicious. In San Diego County.

Speaker 7: To say the least.

Speaker 1: Yeah. This... The the Ethan Baron at Bay Area News Group reported this on 11/11/2022, which would have been like right around the time that I think Nathan was shooting the documentary or something and maybe it came out later, but I guess the dog...

Speaker 2: It wasn't until later.

Speaker 1: It wasn't until later. It was 2023, I think, that the the beach house scenes happened. So...

Speaker 2: Two standout... Two standout... Crazy.... Standout moments for me was Billy explaining the new vision, the updated vision of Theranos two point o, and Nathan just like repeating it back to him. And Billy seeming seemingly oblivious to the the sort of Theranos two point o being used for about ten years now as a way to describe like

Speaker 1: Potential

Speaker 2: frauds. Like potential frauds. Yeah. And then the other thing was Nathan like hearing from her dad that that he was... He had been at Enron, you know? That's funny. And like, that...

Speaker 7: That scene is incredible. Yeah. Incredible. The Enron revelation. I mean, there are so many amazing moments in the film. Even just Billy watching every video at like hyper speed. Yeah. You know, like he's... You're just like, are you just like teaching yourself science? Like, what is happening on your computer right now? So...

Speaker 2: I was kind

Speaker 1: of... Think that's what's happening. I think he's trying to actually at least like put on a show that he's learning science.

Speaker 7: Yeah. Totally. He's like, I'm a Silicon Valley dude. Like, this is what we do. Yeah. I thought it was

Speaker 2: very funny. I was I was kind of imagining like if AI had been good when the movie was being filmed, like you can imagine like how that would've... Like, that would've been a whole role in this whole thing where they're like, you know, talking into the... Talking with the models and like, clearly, you can now, you know, if if if it overlapped with like four o, like their their own conviction own conviction Yeah. Yeah. In their nose two point o would have probably been like 10 times greater.

Speaker 1: We actually discovered new science.

Speaker 2: You're not crazy. They're crazy.

Speaker 7: But yes, the chatbots have some great research papers for them.

Speaker 1: They would've... Yeah. The chatbots would've been fueling so much. That's hilarious. Yeah. That's so funny.

Speaker 2: Yeah. The other... My other, like, revelation coming out of it was... I assumed from watching the film and I and again, I wasn't... Back when this was all going down, I was still like in like high school and college. So I didn't... I wasn't like following the story in the way that we would now. And so I came out of the film being like, is Sunny just like out? Like he managed to pin this all on Elizabeth and he's like walking And then John told me afterwards, he's like, no, he has a longer sentence than Elizabeth. Yeah. So like even the two of them didn't even man... Like neither managed to like...

Speaker 1: Successfully snitch....

Speaker 2: Like, you would think that you would think of...

Speaker 7: He's big time in prison. Yeah. Yeah. He's big time

Speaker 1: in prison.

Speaker 2: He's out in he's out in 2030, so he's gonna have to break his silence with you again.

Speaker 1: There we go. Cover... Cover... Cover...

Speaker 7: I don't know that we would give him a cover, but we would be happy to speak to him.

Speaker 1: Yeah. That'd be great. Yeah. So funny. I was laughing at this at this tweet by soul mate. Elizabeth Holmes, of course it worked. The lights turned on. It was in the cloud. Nathan Fielder, okay. But do you... But you know what feelings are. Right? Like you have them? Weird cocaine husband watching YouTube at two x speed. Babe, it says here, mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell. Everyone was on such different like the movie. Different wavelengths. What was your interpretation of Amanda Seyfried and, like, the journey that she went on? There's so many different ways that people have been reading into her involvement, her role. What did you think? Oscar or, you know, she should reconsider how she plays... How she chooses to play real life subjects in the future?

Speaker 7: Oh, I don't I don't know that she should reconsider how she plays real life subjects. I mean, she's just... She's doing her job making that Hulu project. I thought she was just sort of like the voice of human empathy. Like, she was like the sanest person in the room at all times. If she's with Nathan and Billy, it's like Amanda is sort of like the voice of an empathetic human with powers of observation, who can like feel many things at the same time. So I sort of saw her as like a stand in for the viewer who's saying like, well, hold on a second this or hold on a second that. Whereas, you know, Nathan is so inscrutable. Way of interacting with people. Amanda's like the normal person in the scene.

Speaker 1: Sure. Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And almost the the roller coaster that someone can be on when they're dealing with somebody that maybe may or may not be mentally ill, you know, where Yeah. I don't... You know, it's just sort of like a... She's clearly like going through it where Nathan is just like, you know, just lasered in, like trying to observe. And I look at Amanda as like experiencing the full spectrum of of emotions from like, oh, yeah. She's like, she's really bad too, but also processing the human element. Yeah. She...

Speaker 7: Does her feeling like so sad when when she's on the phone with her kids, when Elizabeth is calling from prison, you know? You can feel really sad in that moment and still think this person is a terrible fraud. Like, both of those things can be true at the same time.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 2: How did you... Did you see The Social Network two yet?

Speaker 7: I have not seen it. No. I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2: Well, I think it's interesting that The Social Network two seems to not be landing. Like, the fact that you're the global editorial director of Wired and you haven't bought... You've gone and seen this... The Nathan Fielder movie twice.

Speaker 1: You have the time. You've definitely the time to be in a theater.

Speaker 2: No. But I I've I've I've been the same way. I've... No.

Speaker 1: Because you're you're a technology podcast.

Speaker 2: Yeah. No. That's what I'm saying like I I typically... Even when that movie Mountain Gate came out which was about AI from the succession

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Teen. You saw that?

Speaker 2: I was like, I should just watch this because like

Speaker 1: It's it's weird.

Speaker 2: Site relevant.

Speaker 7: I should I should see it. They had a screening I couldn't go to. You know, would say, we tried to interview Aaron Sorkin and they said no. Interesting. And so, I guess they missed their shot, you

Speaker 1: know? Weird. Interesting.

Speaker 7: We put Nathan on the cover.

Speaker 1: I saw it. I I I think... I I I understand why it's not getting great reviews, but I think like as someone in tech, someone who wants to see how Hollywood portrays a particular tech figure that you have a lot of insight into from all the reporting that your team has done and interactions that you've had, you will have fun through your lens, but very few people in the theater will have fun because they won't have the same lens, basically.

Speaker 7: Yes.

Speaker 1: So... No.

Speaker 7: I'm excited to see it. I'm excited to see artificial. I've seen Musk. Obviously, I've seen the Musk doc and Wired is in that, and then Sure. I've seen Nathan's movie twice. Yeah. So I'll get around to the social network too. Just...

Speaker 2: Will you be seeing it for

Speaker 1: a third time?... Oozing.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Third time third time in theaters?

Speaker 7: I would see it a third time.

Speaker 1: You would?

Speaker 7: I would see

Speaker 1: it a

Speaker 7: third time. I think every time you see it, different stuff pops out. And you can see it with different people

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 7: And then you can argue with them afterwards. Like, that's the whole fun of the movie in many ways. Okay. It's like talking to other people about it.

Speaker 1: Here's a debate. Mean, yeah. The the the the conversation was just nonstop for the last, like, four days around this movie. One thing that me and Jordy were going back and forth on is, will You Can See Everything be a cult classic? Like, can it even be in the running for that because it's had this crazy cultural moment right on release? Like, how do you define cult classic? And do you think this movie could potentially become one?

Speaker 7: I think of cult classics and I'm not a movie expert. Yeah. That's obviously not what I do. But Sure. I think of those as movies that had sort of like a small...

Speaker 2: Yeah. That's what John said. Yeah. And I'm less of

Speaker 1: a movie expert.

Speaker 2: I just assume... But I but I was... I talked to multiple people this... I was just like Yeah. Just going about my life Saturday and Sunday, ended up in conversations with multiple people that gave me a blank stare when I talked to them about Nathan Fielder, Elizabeth Holmes. They were like trying to recall...

Speaker 1: The movie got It's not followed. Kinda destroyed by Street Fighter.

Speaker 2: Yes. Street Fighter...

Speaker 1: Twice as much money. You're talking

Speaker 2: to the wrong.

Speaker 7: I think this will be a classic.

Speaker 1: Yes.

Speaker 7: I don't know about the cult part. Mainstream classic.

Speaker 1: Sure. Sure. Sure. You reflect on this idea that Elizabeth Holmes is a product of the TED Talk entrepreneur era. How do you think about that and like the type of pitching she was doing? It seems like that era is firmly behind us, but does that resonate with you? What could you share about that idea of the entrepreneur that speaks at a very high level, very broad strokes, that that that theory? And is it truly gone or does it still live? Like, how how have you reflected on that?

Speaker 7: Well, look, I I still think that startup founders sell a vision. Yeah. And they often tell tall tales to get that vision sold. Yep. I think she did it to the nth degree and she did it in an era where that was so much more commonplace and there was so much willingness even among the tech press to really lift those people up and celebrate them. I mean, have a story today from a former Wired editor who... About how Wired fell for Elizabeth Holmes in Mhmm. Think 2014. We published one of the the first ever interview with her, ran in Wired, and we largely laundered her lies. Mhmm. And I think that was much more prevalent in tech press in those days was to to just like not ask as many hard questions and to run with things because they sounded promising, they sounded exciting. This sounded like it was of a piece with this idea of like the quantified self and Yeah. You can take your health into your own hands. You can do it at home. You don't need to rely on institutions anymore, and that was a very tantalizing promise. And I think she fit that bill of sort of the startup founder who says larger than life things. She just did it in, like, the craziest possible way. Like, she took it to a level of of felony. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Which

Speaker 7: not everybody does, but I would argue some do. Yeah. Some do. She did it and she got...

Speaker 2: But in 2014, were they still a couple years away from like actually testing on real patients?

Speaker 7: No. They were promising in that moment that they were about to set up in a bunch of pharmacies, and they took the reporter to one of the pharmacies where they had set up.

Speaker 1: They had a deal with, like, CVS or something.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 7: Yeah. With CVS, think.

Speaker 1: Yeah. But it's really hard to report on because there... I... It might have been the wide reporter, but there were some reporters that went by and they were like, we're gonna test you, and it was literally a magic trick. So they'd be like, we're taking your blood. We'll take it in the back, and then they'd leave and go to Quest Labs or something, run the labs, bring you back the paper and be like, yep, this is from our machine. And it was all just like slight of hand essentially. And so Yeah. You know, as a reporter, like, yeah, you could try and like kick down the door, but like realistically, they're gonna escort you out of the building then. So there's not there's not that much you can do. It's pretty hard. Yeah.

Speaker 2: The crazy thing is just the timing of all this. Like Trevor Milton, who did not spend a single day in prison Mhmm. But raised 1,300,000,000 for Nikola Mhmm. Took it public Mhmm. Blows up Yeah. Doesn't go to prison at all Yeah. Is now back running a private aviation company making jets

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 2: Which again is like Are

Speaker 1: making them?

Speaker 2: I think I think that's like an entirely new kind New new plane? Okay. Which is is a tough sell. It's a tough sell.

Speaker 1: Yeah. He doesn't have an engine.

Speaker 2: But but the big, you know, the big difference is like like it's funny because he hurt a bunch of retail investors.

Speaker 1: Like,

Speaker 2: tens of thousands of retail investors got burned, but he didn't... Like, I... No one got injured. No one no one was like at risk due to like Sure. You know, in the rolling down the hill, that whole thing. Yeah. But it's... It's also...

Speaker 7: That's true. He he didn't harm people's health. He's also a man. Guys. I... And I do I do think that Elizabeth Holmes was in some ways treated differently because she was a woman. I think that that's true.

Speaker 1: In this case, he's out the downside.

Speaker 2: But he's out because he got a pardon.

Speaker 7: Well, good for him.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Which is a whole other can of worms.

Speaker 7: Oh, well. Whole other can of worms. And I I don't think she... I do... You know, she's been trying. And I think if you look at her her partner, Billy's Twitter feed, this is one of the things we were debating on staff is whether he has, like, gone mega and gone hardcore far. Right? Because he is trying to petition...

Speaker 1: For the for the... Yeah. Yeah. When I got to Silicon Valley, my cofounder had studied bio, and was about to do a PhD at Caltech in in in bio. And and I was like, why are we working on, like, my idea? Like, we should do something that you're good at. Like, you're really experienced in this stuff. Like, we should start like a blood testing company. And we were like doing some research and we're like, ugh. There's this company that has all this money. We're never gonna be able to beat them. Let's let's think of something else. So we were like brainstorming ideas and we were like, Theranos will crush us because they already have billions of dollars. There's no reason to compete in this category. It was very very silly. Anyway.

Speaker 2: That's really

Speaker 7: funny. Fun... Well, dodged the bullet there, I think.

Speaker 1: I think so. Actually, the opposite. Because I could have just waited and they could have gone bankrupt and then I'd be like the actual winner potentially of that category.

Speaker 2: My only ask Different life. Leaving this conversation is that you send us a note when you watch it for the third time Yeah. In theaters, hopefully today or tomorrow, you give us your updated updated review and any new revelations, and we'll we'll resurface it on the show for everyone.

Speaker 1: I love it.

Speaker 2: Because you're the first... You will be the first person that we talked to that has seen it three times that I'm aware of.

Speaker 1: That's the best.

Speaker 7: But I'm not saying I'm going this week. I do have a life, I... Know.

Speaker 2: I don't know.

Speaker 7: I think it's a great film. I think it's so good.

Speaker 1: It's a great watch. And it moves quickly for being three hours.

Speaker 2: I just... It does. Think about the pressure on Nathan Fielder now to like... Because I feel like he's been steadily one upping himself Totally. You know, from from the early Nathan, for you, you know, just giving silly advice to like gas station owners and things like that to to the whole...

Speaker 1: Feel like this was like a complete crossover into like a new genre. Like, because it it plays off of fact that he is a Hollywood elite now, but he still has the comedian and documentarian chops to go and do that side. When you bring those two together, you create something that feels like it lives in both categories and is completely unexplored.

Speaker 2: I totally agree that I think you could apply the same kind of thing to like a 100 high profile people and you would get a very interesting product. Totally. Because it's like a journey into the mind and life of of someone.

Speaker 1: Yeah. The reenactment thing is like very, fascinating. Yeah. It it's fertile ground. Well, congratulations on the exclusive. Thank you so much for coming on. Thank you

Speaker 7: guys for having me.

Speaker 2: Yeah. We'll talk to soon. Cheers. Bye.

Speaker 1: Me tell you about Codex. Codex is a powerful workspace for getting work done with AI agents, whether you're writing code, analyzing data, creating content, or automating business workflows. Codecs helps you move projects from start to finish, move projects forward. We have Bing Gordon, coauthor, founding executive of Electronic Arts, co author of Everybody Wins on his forthcoming book. Bing, how are you doing?