NFL legend Jared Allen and Unisports Group bet on curling with Curling Group acquisition — 400% growth and CBC deal

about the revenue, not uh about contributing to it."

Anyways, uh good good fun. Good fun.

Well, our next guests are already here. We have two. We have David Rider and Jared Allen. Welcome to the show, guys. How are you both doing?

Thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show.

Oh, good. Thanks for having us.

Please.

Great to have you guys.

Uh tell us about uh about how you guys work together, introduce both of yourselves, and then we'll go into the story today.

Well, go ahead, David.

Sounds good. It's uh it's great to to to be on you guys.

Um David Rider. I'm one of the the uh founders and principles at Unisports Group. We're an investment group that uh looks primarily at emerging sports um where we do control and and high influence uh investments um across sports. So um we're investing today we announced our investment in in the curling group uh where we're working alongside Jared. Jared, jump in.

Yeah. Um so I'm just a retired football player and uh

we're going to hit the gong for you for this We're very excited.

We got to We got to make gongs a sport. We got to work on smashing. Baseball players might have. I think you you'd out compete us. Sorry. Sorry to interrupt. You announced the investment I needed to

rotation right there. You know, you got a little core strength right there. Was like going to Gong Smash.

U anyways. So, I got into curling on a bet years ago like trying to make the Olympics.

Okay.

Fell love with the sport. met our CEO of the Curling Group, Nick Solski, up at an event in Toronto.

Uh him and I started talking about how basically um underfunded, under um you know, promoted curling is and how it's kind of this this crazy sports uh niche sport game that is takes incredible athletic ability, but no one kind of knows about it and there's a bunch of really smart people that play it, but it's always kind of like, you know, been the side job of everybody. Yeah.

Um, and just all the different opportunities that the fan base, how loyal it is and and all the content creation around it. And then with Nick's um, background in in gambling and and stuff like that in gaming, it was like, man, the opportunities for that was like a whole another level of all the different all the different metrics that come into a curling shot, right? All the different measurables. Uh, but but more importantly, it's these athletes that don't get a credit for being elite level. I mean, you're talking about throwing a stone 140 ft and having to hit like a millimeter or a centimeter of of a rock to to make certain shots. And so, it really is fascinating the athleticism to sweep on ice. Um, if you watched our very first grand slam of curling in the United States, you'll see I snapped a broom. So, it's not it's not always the easiest.

There you go. I mean, hey, hey, we break these mallets all the time, so we're we're familiar.

Yeah. So, we got together. I was one of the founders of the group and uh Nick's done a great job of taking it and you know we bought the grand slams and curling uh we we got the rock league and now with with people like David coming on board it really

um it pushes the sport to the next level. Um it when you know as an athlete I always tell people you know football basketball all that stuff would be nothing without the outside support without the media attention without the in influx of revenue from people other than athletes um the game wouldn't be wouldn't be what it is today and that's what we're trying to create with uh the curling group and the rock league. And that's why people, you know, like David are so important to to see that dream, to see the the the business side of things, to to create that, to bring exposure to those athletes and and to create revenue based around it is is fantastic.

Yeah.

Uh we covered that story of an American guy who's like a lawyer, I believe, who was competing in the Olympics and is kind of like a I I believe acts as somewhat like a father figure for the team. I really really enjoyed that. And then and then I want to ask

that's one of my old teammates. No way.

Awesome. Um yeah, he seems seems like a legend. Uh and then and then talk about the uh talk about like the the drama in the sport cuz I remember there was also this last Olympics there was like a bunch of cheating scand seem seemed like cheating happening and they were like catching them in 4K.

No, they were catching them in 4K.

Oh yeah, they were. I remember that.

I I don't I think this is pretty black and white.

Double touch. Yeah.

I don't you know what listen I don't know why uh I think it was Jacobs Brad Jacobs a team candidate. I think he was the one that was involved with it with Switzerland. You know you look at Sophie Cunningham. She got all the attention for you know was pointing and sticking her tongue out. I'm like Brad Jacobs did it first in curling. You did that.

Yeah. Yeah. That's right.

All sports are downstream of curling.

Yeah.

Well Jared brings up a good point of of the you know about the drama and all of that. you know, there's there's it's co-ed, right? There's there's women involved, there's men involved, and and on the same team, on the same ice at the same time. It's one of the things we love about it, and I think it it drives the uh the excitement. It drives a whole different audience uh for it. The you know, these these kinds of scandals and uh and and you know, the the drive to uh to win um is what gets people excited. And uh we actually, you know, the the the numbers are fantastic. the interest from um from women is actually it's actually out drawing um men. The audience is more female uh than male for the most recent um Grand Slam event. And it's it's to Jared's point like it's cuz it's exciting and uh and and the drama from uh uh from many of it really really gets people going and um gets a good mix of an audience.

Yeah. How are you thinking about the revenue mix over time? Is it like a third tickets, a third merch, a third ads and sponsorships? Like give me a rough feeling for like how these businesses evolve.

Yeah. So, so look, we invest in a lot of emerging sports. We we have an investment in the uh in the X Games League um which is super fun, super interesting.

Yeah. Won the championship uh over the summer um for for Club New York. Um, and and a lot of these uh these sports have a similar model where it's look, we're going to we're going to sell a bunch of tickets. We're going to have you you can see the uh the audience, the excitement for audience. Um, but you also make a ton of the money on sponsorship. Sure.

Um, and it's it's the brands that are that are excited to to connect with these these audiences. And so when you have uh a team that, like we said, has has a lot of drama there. It appeals to both men and women. It appeals to a younger audience. um you're going to get more uh more sponsors, more interesting sponsors um and a good mix of of all of those kinds of things. Then you add an incredible live experience and that's that's what it is. Jared can tell you about the just the fun of being at um at some of these events. You go there and you got live music going, you've got a fun crowd, you have a couple of drinks, you have have have you know some excitement on the ice. I mean it's an amazing experience and that's why people want to go and then you add the third layer which is really the media deal. So, uh, the current group just announced, um, you know, part of our thesis as we got in, um, was announcing 300 plus hours of, uh, of content on CBC, um, in Canada on an annual basis. Uh, CBC is investing not just for, you know, in a short term, but, it's actually a 5-year deal, uh, replacing Canada, uh, Hockey Night in Canada um, on on many of the, um, uh, programs up there. So, we're going to be all over TV. You're going to love it if you're a sponsor. um the fans are going to want to be there and uh and the and the revenue mix will come from that. But um they're already it's already growing. The uh the numbers um are kind of off the charts. It was like 400 plus% growth. Um over 100 million social uh uh views on social um incredible just just from the first uh event.

Yeah, I want to talk about that. It feels like curling. Sorry. I it feels like curling is like uniquely great for social media in that uh one throw is the perfect length. It's it's actually a vertical ice even like it frames up well. And I'm interested in like are you are you having fruitful conversations with sponsors around hey we're going to bring you on social media and your logo will be there and maybe even you know ad reads overlays stuff like that to monetize that attention that might be a little bit more passive but still extremely valuable and obviously it's a funnel to going deeper with the sport but are advertisers comfortable yet saying okay I'm getting a lot of impressions just on social media. Yeah. I mean, you're right. You want to come be our head of sponsorship. We're happy.

Fantastic. Yeah. No, we love this pitch for us.

Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We love We love clipping and bringing the advertisers with us. You can see the advertisers at the bottom corner right here. If this goes out one sec before David answers that, but so to your point, that was one of the the things that excited when Nick and I were talking about this. So, curling is one of these rare sports that actually shows better on TV, right? because you could you can reach such a broader audience because if you're live you need to have education when you got four or five games going on in one se or on one sheet of ice

at one time you have to know what you're watching right so it's great in Canada it's great in Europe because the fact that they're highly educated audience members in the US were building on that right but what's great and the numbers always supported you know is the Olympics through the roof right

uh curly night in America we used to have it numbers were through the roof because you had educated commentators right that could tell people what they're watching.

And so with this with this kind of contentdriven sports and mediadriven uh revenue bases that a lot of sports rely on,

curling fits that model perfectly because it shows so well on TV because you have commentators telling people what they're watching and then they understand the complexity of each shot. So that was one of our real, you know, when we decided to go full into this, that was one of the big deals is because we're like, we we don't have to create content for this sport. The sport was actually built for TV, built for socials, and built for for generating content, you know, around the globe.

Mhm. Uh, do fights ever break out?

Well, so let me tell you, that was my that was the toughest thing I had to learn about, you know, getting into curling, there's this whole concept called in the spirit of curling

where you're not allowed to hit your opponent. I I don't I don't buy, you know,

I'm not a full believer in it. I think we should let some things down. I think they must they must have created that. They must have created that just to nerf you. You know, they're like, "We can't have this guy. We can't have this guy Jared coming in."

I will say though, there's some of the old-timers talk about some uh some brooms getting snapped in dressing rooms and um you know, in in in a game where the the winners have to buy the losers a beer. It doesn't really uh you know, equate to fighting,

but I think some of the old-timers would get a little more sly. I wish there was some more crosschecking on the ice with those sticks. I'll be honest.

That'd be great. How do you how do you guys think about building uh

building up uh like stars? Like it feels like it feels like the sport like from a marketing standpoint as you guys think about growing uh the platform figuring out somebody that uh it's like your your thinking should be like what's the timeline to getting one of our players on Joe Rogan, right? Like sort of the the pinnacle of modern media.

Um who's who's that person going to be, right? Um, but yeah, how do you think about that?

Like do they need to have some like crazy like do they need to spend time in LA and get caught up in like the fast life, you know?

Like I think there there needs to be this like you know allure like yeah these curler you need a bad boy spotted with

Alex and I I'll be honest I don't know if some of these people could handle some of these old time curlers. I mean, you take the Kevin Cooies of the world. I mean, the amount of the amount of drinks these guys can put down. It's like, how how do they get up and function the next day?

Um, these these some of these oldtimes, you get around them and u I mean, they can still just absolutely be three sheets to the wind and put one right on the uh right on the pin. You're just like, this doesn't even make sense.

Uh, but I think I think what it's coming to nowadays is is a lot of these athletes are realizing that it is you have to be you have to have a professional mindset. like Scotland has a massive curling facility out there, right? I mean, they dumped millions and millions of dollars into this sport for their national teams and all that stuff um to to train just specifically this sport. And so, I think this younger generation is realizing, listen, this isn't wreck league anymore. You know, we can't go do what our grandfathers did. But at the same time, you you definitely I think you're right. You have to have people that are going to have an edge about themselves. Uh you got to have people that are going to be intimidating on the on the because that's what as fans, we want to see, right? You you almost want it's like NASCAR. you want to know see when that wreck's going to happen.

Um or you know you look at Rock League for example we we paired you know Jacobs from Team Canada was paired against um one of the SW or yeah Swiss players in the very first Rock League match ever and those dudes dang near went to fisticuffs in the in the locker room during the Olympics right when things were getting heated. So

yeah.

Yeah, you got to have those moments, right? You got to have those rivalries in sports. You got to have those personalities that clash because that's what make competitive sports fun is when you got, you know, when you got it's like two, you know, two magnets pushing against each other, right?

Has there been a like a doping scandal at any point in curling's history or is that

No, I mean there might be if they tested some if they tested some of these guys back in the day for drinking beforehand, that might that might have been the only scandal.

What about uh

those people are pretty wholesome. What about the fan experience? You mentioned being a fan, having a couple drinks. Uh, is heckling approved? Is it that in poor taste? How how far could you go? You're you're good to have some heckling on the from the stands.

Yeah, I I welcome all of it. There needs to be more of it.

Okay.

Uh, and and problem is like we had a guy in uh I think it was like nowadays people on social media get paid to heckle people, right? I mean, it's like they just it's, you know, so I I think I think you need more authentic uh heckling, not people out there for clicks. Sure.

And that really happens when you start building up fandom. That's the cool part about having teams, right? When you have teams, you build up fandoms, you build up rivalries. Absolutely. There needs to be more heckling on the ice. People need to let you know when you're great. And they need to let you know when you suck. Uh that's what's fun about sports.

Yeah.

Imagine if we could do that in business. Imagine if you if your CEO made a really bad call. You could walk in and be like, "You suck today."

I don't know that was going to get, you know,

that happens. You should see our team after the show. They go pretty hard on us. Uh, sorry. Uh, you had something to say, David?

No. Yeah, I was just going to point to to some some similar sports like if you look at like the Waste Management Open and uh kind of notoriously in golf, it's the same kind of sport, right, where you know, you're trying to concentrate and all that. Um, but uh but but the fans are having a good time and they may they they'll let you have it if if you're not. And it's such a good sport where, you know, you can be miked up and you can have um you can get to know these these athletes as they're doing it. And that's how you build them into stars. Um and you build through the league. And again, look, we're going to be on TV. 300 hours is is a ton. And that's on CBC in Canada and it's on ESPN Plus and and some coverage on ESPN uh in the US. Um you're just naturally you're going to get to know these people. It's it's more hours than uh than than almost any other sport is is on television. And they're miked up. They're uh they're doing things. We're pushing it on social. Like I said, the social engagement is just off the charts in terms of the growth um and the the the interest from from fans. Um so, you're going to see a lot of these athletes starting to become bigger stars and you're going to see them um being being built up by their sponsors, by the league, by the by the sheer amount of content uh that's out there. And so you you have some of that and you have the uh uh the opportunity to kind of turn them into into household names at least um at least amongst the the the right fan groups.

What's been the the the curling group strategy on prediction markets last year? It felt like uh every league was picking aside poly market ki uh have you have you consult have you uh figured out a strategy? Do you want to go all in with one be diversified? How how do you think about maximizing the potential of the league there?

Yeah, I think it's I think it's an a, you know, a little bit of everything kind of a kind of an approach. I think we want to be um open and and uh have those conversations with uh with all of them. I think the the interest there. It's a great sport for uh for for for betting markets and for people um who are interested. Our I want to be clear our we didn't underwrite this deal as a you know for the betting side. something that we think there's an opportunity on.

It's more incremental to revenue overall

in the long term.

Yeah. It does feel like there's like a fever pitch last year of like every league's got to pay up for whatever. Uh but then we will a we will enter like a more stable equilibrium with that as a revenue.

What is what's the what's the bottlenecks to growth in the US? I I wouldn't know where to go. I don't have a place like I'm coming out of this interview. I'm fiending to get my hands on a rock

staple center could do or crypto arena sorry does ice hockey do you need to make sure that like on on for the for the US side and growth here like do you need a

are is there a pathway to making sure there's like a curling center you know within every major metro area or at least at least you know promising areas

yeah so I think there's there's a few answers to that one is participation is definitely key and and helpful and I there um that that curling in general is growing in terms of um in certain markets. It's tends to be in the Midwest. It tends to be in in northern markets where um you know it's obviously cheaper and easier to to have uh have ice.

Um so there's some of that. I think it's also bringing events to the US and showing how fun it can be to go to this. So, um, we've got events in in Rock League coming up in, uh, in Calamazoo, Michigan, and in Udica, New York, um, to, uh, to start the season. Um, and so you're going to get people and people are going to go, and I think they're going to go and they're going to have a blast and they're going to start to love it. We love the way the way the curling league is is um uh the curling group, sorry, is taking rock league out to different markets um on a you know, there are smaller markets that don't necessarily have uh the you know where where you're you're not in as much competition for um uh for attention. Uh so you go to these markets and they're doing it in Canada, we'll do it in the US as well. And it's like, hey, this is freaking cool. Look at look at what the curling group is doing. and it's it's um look what we can go do and have a have a really fun time and it's the only show in town. Um so you're going to get some grassroots excitement through that. You're going to build it up through that. Um you're going to see the the social media I think continue to take off and have more um of a of an impact on that. And I think that's going to unlock a lot of the growth in the US. I think the growth in Canada is going to be it's enough to support the investment to begin with because there's such opportunity and you go from um limited TV to 300 plus hours and you go um with the the growth numbers that we've already seen from the first events and everything that's happening there. We see this as something that's got a a long history in Canada. Uh, and that's kind of the the floor and and the what make this a good investment because the downside is so covered by by the existing market. And then the growth is is by uh yeah, by by building it up, turning it into the league. Same thing the X Games just did. And we just saw huge growth in that in season one where you take an existing property, you add a new layer that's more interesting, gives fans a reason to stay um to stay involved, to stay engaged, uh, and gives them different things to root for. uh you're going to see a lot more um sustained growth. And by the way, 80% almost 80% growth year-over-year for the X Games. We we think um and we're seeing similar kinds of numbers um early for uh for curling.

That makes me so that makes me so happy. Like in my household growing up, like X Games was the pinnacle. That was like the thing that that that was that was peak. Like every other every other sporting event was secondary to the X Games.

I love it. We uh we're we're getting ready Aspen in uh in January to start the winter season. So, we'll uh we'll have to get you out there.

Yeah, I would love that. Would love that. We're trying to get more extreme sports happening in San Francisco, right? We want

if you want to bring if you want to bring X Games to San Francisco,

we're your guys.

To San Francisco's credit, I mean, one of the most extreme sports is just trying to navigate downtown.

Set you up for it for sure. Yeah, know the OG extreme sport.

I can attest to that.

Driving driving driving stick in San Francisco for me as that was that was extreme as a 16-year-old just just trying to survive out the gearbox.

That's crazy. Congrats, guys.

Awesome, guys. Yeah, great to hang. Um excited to follow along and uh yeah, hopefully we can get out there for one of the events soon.

Thanks so much for coming on the show.

Cheers, guys.

Have a good one. Great stuff.

Bye. Uh, very appropriate to talk about curling while we're just days away from Christmas. I think of it as very Christmassy sport. How many days are we away from Christmas?

Just a couple now.

Just a few. Just hours.

56.

56. Just hours away.

Please assume. 56 years old. Just 56 more days. Uh, we're we're on the home stretch. We really are on the home stretch. Uh, I got a I got a pitch for uh, you know, if we want to take curling really really big, fix global warming, global cooling, create a new ice age, freeze over Lake Castic. Me and you are curling out there every week. You think? Yeah.

Every day.

Yeah. Uh, Tahoe could freeze over. If they froze Tahoe over, you get Zuck out there. He's curling instead of riding the the wake board. Yep.

Uh, you get uh all all the other tech people out there. They could get into curling if Tahoe freezes over in an extreme global cooling scenario. Who knows? Uh well,