Alex Spiro on AI's impact on litigation, defending high-profile founders, and his robotic massage business with Tom Brady

Speaker 1: Was who you're trading against

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 1: Too. Take them

Speaker 2: to the cleaners or play it safe. Do whatever you want. We have Alex Barrow from Quinn Emanuel coming on the show. Welcome to the show, Alex. How are you doing?

Speaker 3: Good, man. How are you?

Speaker 1: What's Long going

Speaker 2: overdue. Sorry for taking so long to make this happen.

Speaker 1: Are these... What's behind you? Are these the ghosts of your enemies?

Speaker 3: Nobody... Exactly. These are these are people that used to exist.

Speaker 2: Yeah. They're gone.

Speaker 1: Great to have you on the show. We're big Quinn Emanuel fans. Huge. Love hanging out with John. Yeah. We we'd have him on every day if we could. Yeah. I think I think he enjoys it too.

Speaker 5: He needs

Speaker 3: somewhere to go, so you guys should

Speaker 1: be there. Yeah. We keep him we keep him busy. Yeah.

Speaker 2: We're we're close by here. Pasadena is just thirty minutes away or something. So he can just he can

Speaker 3: Exactly just hop

Speaker 2: right. Are you busier this year than in previous years? Or is it pretty steady state?

Speaker 3: It's a pretty steady state. I I change what I focus on and Yeah. You know, toggle up and toggle down, but it's pretty steady state.

Speaker 2: Yeah. How how has AI helped

Speaker 1: or hurt So this I don't think Alex needs an introduction Okay. For for some people Yeah. But it would be great if you could introduce yourself and and your role in the firm and and history before we get into the good Yeah.

Speaker 3: Well, don't know about my role in history. It's it's to be written. Yeah. But I'm a lawyer. I used to be a prosecutor and Mhmm. Try all sorts of cases. I don't really have a discipline or subject matter. And I advise a lot of founders and interesting people on stuff related to law and business and Mhmm. And do things in the business world too

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Which I'm doing more of. But that's that's sort of how I break down my time.

Speaker 2: How is working with... I mean, you've worked with a ton of high profile individuals, Elon Musk, Jay Z, many others. How is it different working or fighting a case actually going to trial with a high profile person who the jury can't just, you know, tabula rasa on?

Speaker 3: It just becomes more complicated and more three-dimensional the world is watching, people have preconceived notions. Because the other side is more excitable, more blinded in their pursuit. Sure. Confused by the the fame and the bright lights. Yeah. And so it just has more dimensions and more more sort of play to work with.

Speaker 2: Yeah. How does how does the strategy outside of the courtroom play into some of these high profile cases with individuals who are going to have to hop on an earnings call or they're going to have to do an interview for whatever their business is like the the court case might go on for a long time, but they have to continue doing what they're doing in the real world. How do you how do you square those two, the risk and reward of continuing business as usual that might flow over to the actual case?

Speaker 3: Their legacy and their story and that of the companies and their missions is far bigger than the case. Sure. And so many people go through trials and tribulations

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: And they happen in private or they happen outside of the the public sphere. When these kind of folks go through this, it impacts every element of their business lives, their employees Yeah. Their legacies and beyond. Yeah. And so you just have to be cognizant of that and you have to paint a picture that takes into account those things and thinks again in sort of three-dimensional and in chapters that would go forward. So I will prep them for speeches and earnings calls and if they have to go in front of Congress or anywhere else in order to sort of assess all of the different business elements, everything going on with them, the case and try to marry them all together to tell a coherent story.

Speaker 2: Do you do you have a team that can prep people for going to congress? It feels like

Speaker 1: there's gonna be a lot of...

Speaker 2: There's gonna be a lot of for that. I mean, you know, with the with the election results, it feels like we've been overdue for the AI safety debate to make its way into congressional hearings and it feels like there's gonna be people on Capitol Hill soon.

Speaker 3: There will... There certainly will be. You know, and I've represented people in front of congress many times before and I have no doubt that'll happen again. In fact, it'd shock me if it doesn't. But that's part of our system. I've always been a bigger fan of the jury trial system than the political theater system.

Speaker 1: Sure.

Speaker 3: But sometimes I have to go there too. Yeah. If I have to go, I will go.

Speaker 2: Yeah. There there there's a scene in the the new Facebook movie, the the social reckoning where Mark Zuckerberg is... The character Mark Zuckerberg is like prepping for a hearing and it it it it... The implication is that they've created like a one to one set of the... Where he will be deposed. Do you think that that's useful or do think you're gonna over prepare?

Speaker 3: I've never created like a a complete replica of... It's like

Speaker 2: you almost named it for you level. Like that's basically what they're implying is that they're doing like the rehearsal.

Speaker 3: You know, I flew up to Tyler Perry Studios to see it in Atlanta and Tyler has a complete replica of the White House. Not... Maybe not a complete but but...

Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. I think we've talked

Speaker 3: about this. Yeah. Yeah. You can practice in the West Wing if you want to like be president.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 3: We could we could do a scene like that. But of course, you know, a good cross examiner is gonna gonna poke at that and gonna say you were so nervous that you had to create this theatrical because you were worried about coming here and facing me.

Speaker 2: And a

Speaker 3: lot of a lot of pain could be made of that. So I don't know that that's that's necessary. I think the most important thing is to know the facts Yeah. Tell the truth

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: And you know, tell it the right way. Drew?

Speaker 1: From what I know, there's other law firms that that jump at the opportunity to go up against you because it's... It would be like a badge of honor, even if they're... Even if they know they're gonna get destroyed. Talk about talk about the sort of, not specific to you, but just like general industry dynamics where like The brand. A certain, you know, lawyer will develop a brand that that like is almost like a magnet for other lawyers to try to test themselves against.

Speaker 3: No. There's... Listen. I still save emails from cases where someone will decide I'm interested in their unsolicited advice and they will send me an email saying, know, listen. I'm a professor, I'm a you know, I'm a trial lawyer your father's age and just so know this case is unwinnable or you shouldn't be going to trial or whatever. And I still have them from various trials that they were... And they were wrong and

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: We won. Yeah. And I've created a cottage industry of people that used to work for me or been up against me where I'm told because you know

Speaker 4: a lot... It's a lot

Speaker 3: of my friends sort of are one degree that are then hiring people because of conflicts and whatnot, And they're like hiring people that used to work for me like they like as if they know, you know, how I take my coffee and how I prepare for trial or something. So you know, I'm aware of this Mhmm. Industry, you know, noise, but it just it it just makes it more exciting and more arena based.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's funny because like this happens with athletes. Right?

Speaker 3: Somebody has to win.

Speaker 1: Like with with athletes, you can literally watch the last 100, 200, 300 games a player has played. Right?

Speaker 4: Mhmm.

Speaker 1: And it's probably good to be prepared, but it doesn't mean that when you step into the arena that it's gonna go well for you. Right? Like, I could... There's a lot of tennis players that I could watch and I'm gonna have a very tough time against them Yeah. No

Speaker 2: matter How much game film you've been.

Speaker 1: What what advice do you give to lawyers at the firm that are early in their careers that want... That are thinking about how to build their own brands and for better or worse, like Aura. Right? Because, you know, it doesn't really make sense for somebody to just try to be like a mini version of you or a mini version of of John or or whoever it is. Or or is that... Or is is it flipped and you should just try to be exactly like you?

Speaker 3: No. Don't don't do that. Don't do that. No. I tell them be yourself. You know, it's it's it's a sort of sounds like a cliche, but it's true. You know, when somebody is intimidating and can act a certain way and bark, it works for them if they are in fact intimidating. If you're not intimidating, start acting like that. You look you look like you're trying to do something you're not. You look at a character. And and listen, there are many ways to be effective. There are quiet, soft spoken, methodical trial lawyers. It doesn't have to be, you know, the barbarian at the gate. And then if you are true to yourself, if you stay in that character and you win cases Mhmm. That's a good way to develop a reputation.

Speaker 5: Mhmm. Right?

Speaker 3: I mean it it's it's really not a complicated formula. When I left being a prosecutor, these these... I I mean I always have to tell these stories, there was one guy who came and he's like, well I need to see your business plan. And I and I don't have a business. I told him. I said, I'm just gonna just be myself and I'm gonna win cases. That's that's the plan. I mean, there's no... That's the plan.

Speaker 1: Mhmm. So, yeah. Best way to build a personal brand is to be really great at your craft and win a lot. Don't worry about anything Well,

Speaker 3: what I was gonna say before and I'll I'll say it here, which is it's a unique profession when there is a winner and a loser of each battle. Mhmm. You know, and and that's... That allows the, you know,

Speaker 2: But what about...

Speaker 3: That allows people...

Speaker 2: What about like so many of cases they just get settled and both sides can kind of claim victory or there's fear of victories...

Speaker 1: Feel like they lost.

Speaker 2: Or both sides really lost like how often do you actually feel like you got the full victory?

Speaker 3: If I'm going all the way, I think I have to go all the way for

Speaker 2: a Yeah. Right?

Speaker 3: And if I don't think that I'm... You know, obviously, wouldn't settle at the point that I'm settling at or or resolve the thing at the point of resolving it at if I don't think it's the the right risk adjusted deal.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So why ever to... You know, you're never really losing that. If you're not afraid to go all the way and you think you you have some edge, you're either going to get a favorable outcome or the the easy way or the hard way.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Do do you think we're gearing up for for more cases to go to trial or more cases to settle earlier because of AI tooling, automated discovery? I don't know what else you're seeing in terms of adoption of new technology. But are there any like secular shifts you're sensing coming down the pipe or maybe you're already feeling?

Speaker 3: I think AI will eliminate a layer of a lot of things including including my day job. And by eliminating that layer, it allows you to get to the truth and synthesize it faster.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: Okay? And if you can do that, then I think you can make quicker decisions on this is something to resolve, or this is something to go all the way off. Mhmm. And if you can, in maybe, the way it'll work is a lot of the fat in the middle is gonna be cut out. Cases will settle settle quickly or go to trial. Mhmm. And there won't be as much in between litigation that is pointless and

Speaker 2: Got it.

Speaker 3: And sort of ebbing between the two. Yeah. And if that happens, and maybe there are more trials frankly, because people just say, okay, this is the what... We just did an analysis of these 10 cases, these nine should settle, this one shouldn't. Mhmm. We're going all the way, and then people don't get that nervousness that they get. Where some companies, they'll think in their mind, okay, these three are gonna have to be tried, but then they end up caving because they're too risk adverse.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. And then and then in terms of actually at trial, how... Are are you gonna be more focused on a particular a particular piece of an argument or or or arguments gonna be more narrow or more broad because you you you can you can fan out easier and it's lower cost to find every possible point to argue or is that less relevant to a jury so you want to be more focused? How will that change?

Speaker 3: I haven't changed my approach to trying cases or how to present in front of a jury in twenty years.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 3: Like, I don't even think I've toggled

Speaker 2: One thing. Slightly.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah. So the human mind and the and the human mind when it is learning can only follow so many things.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: It is impacted and persuaded by certain things. There are argumentative techniques that work and some that don't, and those human beings in the jury are not changing based on AI. And so I'm gonna talk to them exactly the same way. It just may be that the people that get me the information that I distill into my arguments, there needs to be fewer of them or they have a simpler more linear path in getting me that information because they have technological tools that make it faster, sleeker.

Speaker 1: Yeah. How have you processed how have you processed AI progress? Like, have we solved this... Like, are we still hallucinating court, you know, cases that didn't exist? Yeah. You know, pulling evidence that's made up? Or or was that the same kind of thing that people were experiencing with chatbots three years ago? They were experiencing with with law, but but it it's solved.

Speaker 3: I'm no expert on this. I think that case law is one thing, right, which may still have these kinks.

Speaker 1: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: Distilling documents and pulling information from the document strikes me as not something that's so susceptible to a mistake. Mhmm. So right, if I if I put a police report file into the into the widget, and it tells me detective Lam surfaced three times in this case January 3, January 8, and January 12. I doubt that's wrong. I doubt that's Yeah. Hallucinated based on my understanding of where the machine learning is at this point. So it... That factual analysis is gonna work in streamlining and getting me answers to questions that I make people run down all day when I'm investigating something or trying something. In terms of the case law, listen if they're making up case law or imagines case law hallucinates, the the team that works besides me needs to double check everything and they do to make sure there's no hallucinations.

Speaker 2: Are you are you worried about clients becoming overconfident in the in the era of AI? There's this article on the cover of the Wall Street Journal today. Divorce lawyers to clients break up with AI because this this family lawyer drafted a prenup and then his client sent him 13 pages of revisions based... It was clearly he just dumped it in his chatbot and sent it back to his lawyer and was like, I'm the expert now. And then the lawyer had to say, like, actually, like, we did things a certain way and we had more context here. But are you worried about that, like the armchair quarterbacking getting worse?

Speaker 3: I I represent almost exclusively clients that think that they know more about the law. It's it's my specialty. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3: There we go. And so I'm very used to this. I mean, I I represented lots of CEOs, world leaders and things when I was in my thirties Yeah. And had to deal with like, what do you know basically as I was representing them. Was like, well you picked me and you asked me to come here. So Yeah. You know, I didn't insist on coming to this meeting. That's part of it. Know, people armchair doctors, they armchair lawyers.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: I I think that the old adage of the Goldman Sachs days was you know, you shouldn't be picking your own stocks. Well, you shouldn't be picking your own legal arguments and and picking your own medical procedures. And since the time of Socrates, we have learned that we are not great advocates for ourselves. That we ought to rely on somebody that has some emotional independence from us that can use judgment, that can make the arguments the way they ought to be made because we're... We can be myopic and they're not professionals. So Mhmm. It... I have said to many many clients, probably clients that have appeared on on your show, if they want to represent themselves I'll just sit here and watch. They can they can make the opening argument. That's... That usually shuts them up pretty quickly.

Speaker 2: No one's taking you up on that yet.

Speaker 1: But you you like... It seems like you like working with the difficult ones. It's not just because they're happen to be the most powerful people

Speaker 3: in Don't tell anybody that you're encouraging bad bad behavior. I I don't like it other than to say that some of the most amazing minds are those that are also the most complicated.

Speaker 2: Sure.

Speaker 3: And I like being around things that I think are super interesting and I'm curious. I like watching the world move forward and a lot of these folks, difficult as they may be, doing things that are exceptional and unique. And sometimes the cases themselves are just important enough that I think they are worthy of a strong and important defense.

Speaker 2: Yeah. How how are you meeting new people? Is it all referrals through previous clients? Are there ever... Is there ever a moment where you can see from your perspective that there's going to be a ton of litigation in AI copyright and so you're actually going out of your way to meet folks in that industry beforehand or is it all just comes in when there's a problem?

Speaker 3: I'm I'm closed. Okay. I am not looking for I'm not mingling and I'm not looking for nascent industries or industries that I think there's gonna be litigation explosion in. Sure. There are enough companies and people that I'm responsible for shepherding that that I'm not gonna chase people and I don't think... I don't just believe in that as a system. Whether you're a young person looking to market or you're at at you know, been in the career a long time, I just do not believe in that. The top hedge funds don't chase people. The top doctors don't chase people. I certainly don't chase people and yeah. I mean the way that referrals come in is it's word-of-mouth.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: Where they see you, you know, being a trial lawyer is a public thing. There's people that watched the Alec Baldwin trial or the Eric Adams or the Robert Kraft or the taboocephalousia or I can keep going. And they see you and they think he... You know, hopefully they think they can... That I conduct myself honorably and aggressively and smart. And then they say, okay, I want that guy.

Speaker 2: Yeah. How do you... How do the best founders think about lawsuits as a as a tool of business, as an important piece of the puzzle, you as a potential team member as opposed to like headache, something that needs to be just dealt with on the off occasion. It's something that's more in their business repertoire that they are good in this capacity.

Speaker 3: Some of them are more adverse to that chaos and the scariness of the war, and some of them can't get enough of it. Mhmm. And what you try to do is modulate the ones that want to sue everybody that walks the earth, and the ones that are afraid that if somebody sends a letter, we've got to shut down the company.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: And, you know, I'm using extreme examples, but you get the point that that some people run too risky and some people run not risky enough, and there's a there's a balance. But I mean, you can't be afraid of a fight or everyone's going know you're afraid of a fight. And if you're doing something cutting edge, either competitors that the world is a jealous place Mhmm. Regulators that don't understand what you're doing, short sellers Yeah. Who knows. Right? Know, more money, more problems. So it can... All sorts of things can start happening, and you cannot be afraid. You can't blink. You can't panic, and you got to fight through whatever storms come.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Talk about, you know, the sort of transition from what seems like at one point in your career, like pure purely practicing law to now being on the business side, being on boards. Mhmm. Is that something where, you know, it's 5050 now and ten years from now, it could be, you know, ninety ninety ten? Like, what's most interesting about actually being in the arena, at least on the other side of the table?

Speaker 3: The decision to go to hospital made at 21 on a whim. I could have easily ended up, you know, an intern at a bank or something. But but once I started doing it, I realized that the that the importance of it, the thrill of it, the combination of of forces in the arena, I don't think there's gonna be anything like it, and I've yet to find a business way to replace it. That being said, I've been doing it for a very long time, longer than I expected to. It's time for new chapters, and those are starting to begin, and we'll see. I mean, if I look at my legal career in the second or third inning, it would... It was where it was. My business career is not as long as my legal career is. And so it's it's forming on its own timeline and trajectory and it'll it'll take up more of my time as time goes on. And maybe if I'm on your show in ten years nobody even remembers I was a lawyer.

Speaker 1: Do you wish that business was more zero sum? Like I've forgiven given your history like it seems like you enjoy the fact that it's you you get to win and the other person gets to lose and one of the problems in business is that you can win and your competitor, your your your your rival can also be winning. Yeah. Even if it's on a smaller scale.

Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know that I want the other side to always lose so badly, but I I hear your point. There's something about the case that has a star, a a start, a middle, and an end. Sure. And the finality of it, the binary nature totally decrypts me. And I often have said to, you know, the Elons and Jeffs and the great entrepreneurs of our time, I don't have the patience. I don't know that I'd be... I I would have been a great entrepreneur anyway, but I don't know that I would have had the... I know I do not have the patience Mhmm. To have sifted through it for ten, twelve, fifteen years to get to the pinnacle. Yeah. So maybe it it... I I chose this path on purpose. There are business things though that that are exciting that create outside value when you put two pieces together the right way. I've got activist a bunch that is the same sort of muscle memory, and there are cutting edge things that people can do once businesses are ripe. Right? Not at the product and engineering stage, know how to do that, but as as they get riper, that that I think you can take and make magic with and do something that is very unique Mhmm. In the capital markets and in the business world that that strikes me as as awfully similar to the things that I enjoy about my current craft.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Talk about a little bit a little bit about the relationship with Tom Brady. How that developed? Where do you see that relationship going over your business career?

Speaker 3: We're partners in sports and health and wellness businesses. We don't live too far from each other in Florida, so we get to see each other every week and talk shop. You know, he's the GOAT, he's one of one, and he's a complete class act and fun to fun to work with because it's working with a close friend. Mhmm. I think that a couple of the businesses... The sports teams speak for themselves and there are more coming. Yeah. The businesses that we have that are adjacent to sports, I think people will soon learn are just as interesting. Flag one for you, is the company Escape. Yeah. Which is a robotic massage company. So you can go into Equinox, we're in a bunch of gyms, hotel chains, all over the country. You can book it online, and you can go in and you go in and rather than a human massage therapist, a robot will give you massage. It's the Tom Brady protocol. They are trained by his liability coaches that kept him playing for twenty three years and seven championships. Yeah. It has a unique method that keeps you limber, and keeps you lean, and keeps you fit, and keeps you healthy and upright. And it's remarkable what it can do. It's the only one of its kind. It... They're the only robots that are trained to interact with people this way. Most of these robots are trained to stay away from people. Yeah. And I'm and I'm telling you, it it it... This company as it continues to grow is going to change healthcare because it's an overlooked aspect of healthcare and everyone's gonna be able to get Tom Brady level massages in the coming months and years. And I think that this company is gonna be a very special thing.

Speaker 2: Yeah. That makes a of sense. Love it. Are you a believer in the kind of like this barbell effect that's happening in a lot of venture capitalists are investing in like AI and the most frontier technologies and then also sports teams. We see this with Thrive. And there's this excitement about something that can never be disrupted by AI, something where you have to go to the sports stadium. Is that is that an overarching thesis for you or something you you you agree with?

Speaker 3: I don't know that it's an overarching thesis, but it's obviously a fair enough hedge.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: I mean, my view on that is is more more... Maybe more simple, which is beachfront real estate and the the unique blue chip sports team should continue to go up in in value as this generational wealth is both created in this AI technology boom Mhmm. And is the transition of wealth that's never been seen before happens in the next ten years.

Speaker 2: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: And so if you own the beachfront real estate or you own the n of one sports team, you would think that there'd be more people that are in a position to afford it as long as it doesn't get, you know, evaluations don't get too extended. Yeah. You would think that they would keep going up because it's a finite supply.

Speaker 2: Yeah. No. Makes sense. Supply and demand. I love it. Next question?

Speaker 1: What is your... Like, we're a very interesting time on the Internet. Obviously, our favorite platform is Axe. And Axe is going through something right now that I imagine a lot of your clients are frustrated with, which is that like, you know, fake news travels, you know, all around the world like ten minutes and can do real damage to individuals and brands, companies, whatever, before you can slap a community note on on something. And usually by the time something is community noted, a million people saw it already. And I'm curious, like, what... Like, is there a solution there or is it the new normal and, you know, brand... Your your brand, whether you're an individual, you know, you could be an athlete, a celebrity, or a company, is just gonna be harder to manage, indefinitely. I'm assuming you got you get like messages here and there from somebody that says like, hey, somebody just posted this thing about me or my business. It's completely fake. And right now, there's effectively no recourse. You can get, you know, posts can be taken down, but but but you know, the the original poster still has a lot of authority around it.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I get that email every day. And it is complicated. I will say that I talked a little bit about juries before and how I talk to them. Human beings have never tried to decipher this much information, noise or otherwise ever before. Right? I don't know why anybody thinks that the human mind can keep track of all of this information, disinformation, fake, bot, or otherwise. And so the question is is there become a tipping point when it's not really free speech, it's chaos. Yeah. And what to do and what to do about it. Because the other thing that happens is these nameless faceless voices are harder to also not just decipher or how many of them there are, but but the veracity of them because they're not in front of you. You know, we we are very good when we can eyeball somebody Yeah. And we can say okay, this person... I mean we do this automatically as people. This person is put together, they do not seem to be under the influence of any substance.

Speaker 7: Mhmm.

Speaker 3: They do not seem to be in a cognitive dissonant state where they don't know what the hell they're talking about. Mhmm. They seem like they're somebody that might know what the hell they're talking about and we judge this quickly. Yeah. On the internet you can't do that. And so the combination of all of these things I'm describing leads to a steady state of chaos and what the answer is I'm not sure. What I think has happened collectively is we've all basically decided that we're not going to cancel culture people as quickly as we might have in an era ten years ago. Yeah. And because we're just gonna take everything a little bit with a grain of salt and forge ahead.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Speaker 3: And so it is unfortunate when that happens with businesses and if there's real life consequences, think you gotta do something about it. I mean...

Speaker 1: I know, but there's no but there's no solution. It's like what? You're gonna go, you know, one of your clients, you know, somebody... And again, right now on X, it's particularly bad where you can scroll now and unless you're in the community note program, you don't know that everything is getting community noted. Mhmm. And so 99.9% of people are just seeing stuff. It's viral, so maybe there's some truth...

Speaker 2: And then

Speaker 1: there's the stressors. And what do you do? You get... Somebody sends you a post or whatever, you can't litigate a million cases. I'm sure you'd love to, but you don't have the time.

Speaker 3: No. I wouldn't love to. I would not love to. So so I I got a couple of suggestions. Okay? First is I'm not on social media. I've never been on social media. The second thing is put it away and don't look at it. If you don't like what you're seeing, it's not good for you. It's not good for your

Speaker 2: Close your eyes.

Speaker 3: Mental health. It's not good for your productivity. Put it And then third is what I say to people honestly when they can't do those two things is if it's having a real life impact on your business or your life, then you know you have a problem. If you're not seeing real world impacts from it, it's just noise. So for example, if nobody... If everybody refuses to go on your show and all your advertisers cancel because of something on the Internet, then you know like listen, this is not just bothering me. It's actually not catastrophic thinking. I am having a problem, a real world problem because of this issue. Then you got to solve it.

Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah. Gotta say something... Yeah. Fortunately, we haven't had this issue, but it's just like I think every every celebrity is going through this. Every... A lot of a lot of tech companies are going through this where an account... Like, accounts accounts are just incentivized to share the most inflammatory thing possible every single time. And one, they directly make money on it now. Right? They're directly profiting off of it. But, yeah, I don't know. It's not not an easy solution. But...

Speaker 3: What what you are describing has been a problem since the advent of the media in lesser degrees, which is just that the more controversial the car crash, the more incendiary, the more clicks, the more voices, the more eyeballs. And so you know, what is the solution? I mean we have a hundred years of modern media history to look at it. There's been places that it becomes state owned and then they try to make it flatter, but then it's state owned. Mhmm. Every time somebody wealthy buys a media organization or social media company, everybody then questions their undue influence and on the oligarchy of it. And when it's left to shareholders, you have then the burdens of shareholders and you need to make the prices go up. If you make the price go up, it needs more eyeballs. If you need more eyeballs, it puts Back

Speaker 2: to the same point.

Speaker 3: A burden on the system.

Speaker 5: So Yeah.

Speaker 3: Have been tinkering this as... With this as a society and frankly across the world for a long time and we have not figured out.

Speaker 1: Yeah. We've been dealing with it hundreds of years and it's only gotten worse. Right. Well well, you know,

Speaker 3: people people forget it. I mean, we may be at a chaos point where it's definitely worse, but you know, there was a time when the ability to connect with each other wasn't... Was was more important

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Than the downsides you're describing. When people in countries that didn't have internet until recently were able to learn information, were able to see that there's a bigger brighter world out there that their customs and cultures are incorrect about. There were beautiful things that happened because of it and because of social media to kept people connected during COVID

Speaker 2: Hundred percent.

Speaker 3: And and and offset loneliness. Yeah. It it... We may be at a point as you are suggesting of of too much of it, and it may be triggering loneliness. It may be triggering too much of everything you're describing. So I I I hear you, and I wish I I wish I had the perfect answer.

Speaker 2: But I but I I agree with your point. Like at the at the end of the day, find the ground truth and if it's not... If it's just noise, it's just noise. And so you you can deal with that pretty easily. But thank you so much for coming on the show. Have a great

Speaker 1: day. Great to hang. Appreciate it.

Speaker 2: Great to hang.

Speaker 1: It's been an honor.

Speaker 2: We'll talk to you soon.

Speaker 1: Have fun out there. I'll just

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