Siegelman Stable founder: how a horse racing brand became an organic NBA favorite

Speaker 2: Crowd... Your business is AI, their business is securing it. CrowdStrike secures AI and stops breaches. Here he is. We have our first in person guest. What's up? How you doing? Welcome to the show.

Speaker 3: Look at us. We're we're kind of twins right

Speaker 2: now. You guys are Stable. Okay. Introduce yourself for everyone.

Speaker 6: How's it going, Gus? I'm Max Siegelman, founder of Siegelman Stable.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Thank you for having me.

Speaker 4: It's great

Speaker 2: business for us.

Speaker 6: Look at you. These hats, you look good. I like...

Speaker 3: There we go.

Speaker 5: Yeah. There we go.

Speaker 2: Actually, this is fantastic.

Speaker 6: The business. Yeah. We're a contemporary luxury fashion brand Mhmm. Based in New York. Yeah. Started in 2020 by accident. Okay. I was doing creative consulting and marketing for some athletes and music artists. Yeah. I was also head of social media and cultural relevance for Out Front Media.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

Speaker 6: Billboard on the desk. Love to see it.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 6: That's not a home. Yeah. And then in the pandemic, started making hats and sweatshirts with my dad's racing stable logo. He trained racehorses Yep. His entire life. He also used his racehorses for equine therapy programs for

Speaker 3: Amazing.

Speaker 6: Special needs kids, veterans with PTSD, interested youth programs, invested $300, made some hats and sweatshirts Mhmm. Gave it to family and friends.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Like the the the some of the friends... Well, that was the part. Yeah.

Speaker 6: Some of those well, the the first run was like real family and friends. Yeah.

Speaker 2: And then

Speaker 6: I started posting them and some of the friends you're alluding to

Speaker 5: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Were hip hop artists

Speaker 2: Sure.

Speaker 6: NBA guys and all of that.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 6: And so I did another 300 run and that's when it started to get interesting.

Speaker 3: Yeah. You're on the show you're on the show obviously because in in part because we've had horses have been a big part of our show.

Speaker 6: Almost took their... The first thing I saw when I walked in was a harness racing picture in in the room.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And then

Speaker 6: in the bathroom, there's another one. Yeah. I've never have I ever seen this anywhere I walk in

Speaker 4: that's in my house. We love

Speaker 3: horses. Yeah. We... You know, I... John doesn't have any daughters, but I but I say, you know, if your daughter's not a horse girl by five, you failed Yeah. As a father.

Speaker 6: Or or you're lucky.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Or or you're lucky. Also my sons are way too big to be jockeys even. So I think they'll...

Speaker 6: So drivers in harness racing?

Speaker 2: They can...

Speaker 6: Like my dad's my size.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Speaker 6: So you can be bigger. I think jockey and like thoroughbreds got to be Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit smaller. Yeah. Very

Speaker 3: cool. What... So you grew up going to a bunch of races and stuff?

Speaker 6: You think I did a lot of that. I like... Yeah. I think people think I ride a horse every day. Like I grew up forty minutes outside Manhattan. Yeah. Yeah. Most of my friend's parents like were lawyers or doctors or worked in the city. My dad trained race horses, so like a little So bit I had more access to it, but probably didn't take advantage of it much as I could have. Yeah. And then I think once this started, I started to like realize it and appreciate it a bit more. And so Yeah. I probably spent more time with horses in the last five years than I did in my previous...

Speaker 3: Totally. That's how it works sometimes. When when did you actually go full time on the business? Three

Speaker 6: years ago.

Speaker 3: Three years ago?

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 3: And what was there like a certain like dollar amount that

Speaker 6: you... It's a good question.

Speaker 3: I was like... Because it if you have other income and you're trying to build a brand, there's some incentive to just keep doing the other things so you can buy more and more inventory.

Speaker 6: Yeah. I had I had it pretty good because I reported directly to the CMO of Out Front Media. Was amazing and let... And like knew what I was doing. Yeah. And it was like for fun on the side, but like we were doing drops on like a Friday like by myself and then my my wife now is creative director. So we had first started dating and we were doing good money on a Friday.

Speaker 4: And I was like,

Speaker 6: two Fridays, I'm making but I kept I kept reinvesting it for like three weeks.

Speaker 3: He's like, hey, can you help me out with this thing? And you're like, watch your watch your town.

Speaker 6: I mean, yeah. So now she runs the show. She's the boss and so... And she's the the real creative talent behind it.

Speaker 5: Like... Boss ever. Oh,

Speaker 2: no. Yeah.

Speaker 5: Got it. Got it. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah. She

Speaker 6: was like a second mom to me. She was great. But yeah, I think we got to a point. Honestly, the biggest... Everyone was like, you gotta go full time. You gotta go full time. Honestly, Gary Vaynerchuk was the one who pushed me

Speaker 2: to be like

Speaker 3: Let's go.

Speaker 6: Dude, now's the time. Wow. And I know he was on recently. Yeah. So... But but yeah, I think there was a lot of moments. I was like, alright, let's do it. And then I think it took it to a whole another level when we started doing this full time.

Speaker 3: Totally.

Speaker 6: But we were a team of three when we started this year. We're a team of six now.

Speaker 2: Wow.

Speaker 6: So it feels like I already need it and so already not enough people. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. But it's been like a whirlwind of something that was never expected and a quick fashion education and business education.

Speaker 2: I I just wanna know about the, like, the distribution mix over time.

Speaker 6: Yep.

Speaker 2: Just building the brand. What what what you stayed away from? What you leaned into in terms of...

Speaker 6: Yeah. I think now, like, was a 100% DTC through our own website when we first started. Yeah. We were given opportunities to be in some bigger retailers and I wanted to protect the brand Yeah. And wanted to be really in control of everything and anything.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: I still am probably in too much control and maybe hold us back from a bit of growth. But like with understanding, you go through phases of business and some things make sense at certain points.

Speaker 2: Yep.

Speaker 6: So I think like at first, a 100% DTC. Yeah. We did a pop up probably too soon in 2022. My wife and I built the whole thing out in Williamsburg.

Speaker 2: Okay. So did you... You did a short term rental on a physical

Speaker 6: It was

Speaker 2: like couple 100

Speaker 6: pandemic. Gimme empty space. Wasn't being used. We outfitted out with literally things I was finding in my parents' garage in the trash.

Speaker 2: The furniture and stuff.

Speaker 6: It was the best fucking thing of all time. Can I curse on that show? Yeah.

Speaker 5: It was

Speaker 6: the best thing of all time. And then like fast forward to where we are now, the pop up model is unbelievable for us. Okay. And so we open next week for five weeks in Soho in New York. Yes. A pop up in... That will be amazing for us. We use the space as an event space outside of retail hours for dinners and other stuff. What

Speaker 2: is your opinion on line culture in New York? Lines outside this... Waiting for? Is that... Yeah. Yeah. But but is that a sign of success? Is it a requirement for or is it something actually you want to avoid and it's a sign that, okay, you didn't quite match demand with supply? What's thinking?

Speaker 6: It's a it's a mix of both. Okay. I think one is like does the size of the store fit? Yeah. The other thought on that same thought is like what's the experience for the customer? Like if the experience for the customer is I'm a packed store and it's miserable

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: Get me out.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: You don't want that. Yeah. And so there's a there's a balance. Yeah. Like is a line amazing? Yes. Yeah. If we have a line, like, I will bring out coffee. I will bring out stuff to like people waiting because I them I'm not a line person.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 6: But like, there is a bit of like, let's keep a line. It looks good. Sure. But it's also the balance of you don't know on the business side is like, I wish I could have more sales people in here helping you guys out and I want this experience to be just as good for you as it is for you and the next person.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: And so it's it's a balance but line culture is...

Speaker 2: What's the coolest thing that you're putting into the decoration to the design of the...

Speaker 3: You got a truck in there?

Speaker 6: Through a truck?

Speaker 3: Yeah....

Speaker 6: We're putting a sulky in this one which will be our first time putting a sulky in the back in in a store.

Speaker 2: Will it be for sale if someone comes in and they demand to buy?

Speaker 6: I always say there's a price for everything.

Speaker 2: Thank you. So I am 100% agree.

Speaker 6: We have this trophy Yeah. That we put in all of our pop ups. Yeah. And my mom we in Chicago was our first pop up this summer that we did for the first time. Was a trophy on the table. Yeah. And someone comes in they're like how much for the trophy? It's like, oh, I can't sell it like...

Speaker 3: Family area. Yeah.

Speaker 6: It's my... It's one of my dad's trophies. My mom like in the back is like, we got more. I'm like, I'm like, dude, let me at least get the price before we say it's over. Yeah. Yeah. There... I mean, there's there's things that I've sold in the store that aren't actual things that we make and sell. So like

Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure.

Speaker 6: Come on in and

Speaker 3: Yeah. Let's do it. Add new SKU.

Speaker 6: Excellent. Shop by Grapevine by the way.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Shoes. That's great. How... Like what is your... How do you think about timelines for building a business? Building a true luxury brand is possible. You just need thirty, forty years. It feels like. Right?

Speaker 6: Need time. I think like the biggest misconception is like how fast can we get to the biggest point and like for

Speaker 3: us Yeah.

Speaker 6: It's never been a sprint. It's always been a marathon. Yeah. We've never been in a rush to get to the next thing. Yeah. Though it feels like it on a daily basis like the amount of inbound...

Speaker 3: Yeah. You have to move quick but understand that like there's a million things you could do to juice your revenue this year that would ultimately...

Speaker 6: Yeah. It's it's it's the long play

Speaker 2: for us. Costco.

Speaker 6: And it's a business decision. Like there's there's brands that launch and it's like how much can we make in a year and can we sell it? Yeah. Like that's not the game we chose which is probably the harder long game.

Speaker 3: But Yeah.

Speaker 6: I think for where we want to sit as a business, as a luxury brand, it's thing to do.

Speaker 3: Yeah. How do you... Yeah. Where... What other... Like is 30% of your revenue coming from New York? Is it more?

Speaker 6: Is it is it... I mean, New York's definitely like our top our markets like New York, LA, Chicago, Dallas, and it's crazy we haven't done anything in person here yet.

Speaker 3: But Yeah.

Speaker 6: Hopefully announcing soon that early twenty seven we will. Maybe...

Speaker 3: All of the the the Idaho's, Montanas, the the Wyoming's? Yes.

Speaker 6: Listen, there's still good markets for us. I think like the appeal of just the look of a horse. And I also understand our price point is on the higher end. Like a dollar hat is not a cheap item Sure. And that's our lowest priced item, maybe not like a key chain or something like that. Mhmm. But when we first started and I was embroidering on blanks, it was $42. I was... We were in a factory in Downtown LA yesterday and I said the appreciation I have for an $8.99 t shirt in Target is completely different than you asked me about an $8.99 t shirt in 2010 before I was even part of the fashion industry. It's like all the investment that goes into that from the time of the person making the tech pack to the pattern cut to all that, that's money.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. Now we were doing our first ever merch release this coming Thursday.

Speaker 6: Awesome. That's

Speaker 3: up. And it's crazy looking at the numbers, like our cost for the items and like, again, the merch is for us is not a way to make money. We just want like... We enjoy making the products. But it's crazy looking at our cogs and thinking like if we were running a brand, the level to... Like, the amount we would have to mark this up to to be in business is just crazy. And obviously, we're not at scale. We're making like a couple 100 of this, couple 100 of that, but it's a...

Speaker 6: Goes back to like the distribution. It's like it's why a lot of brands fall into wholesale and why it makes sense. They're buying a big bulk that helps get your price down.

Speaker 5: Yep.

Speaker 6: And it's also marketing and awareness sales in general which helps you hit that Middle America that you're also talking about.

Speaker 3: Yeah. What about what about paid media? I... There's a big New York brand that's that's like trying to sell right now, like everyone listening would know it. And they... And I didn't really realize but they're effectively spending like not not actually zero but effectively zero on paid media. Like they don't spent like...

Speaker 6: What would you consider effectively zero?

Speaker 3: Like I just mean like maybe there's something you could classify as a paid media budget but they don't have like ads running at all.

Speaker 2: And be protected with Google keyword or something.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Some something like something like that to prevent like you know, scammers. But but they're not... It's not part of the strategy at all. It feels like it feels like the right approach is like some, you know, some middle ground where you're not.

Speaker 6: We we have been to date like a non spend on that. We have started recently like testing some stuff out on Google and on Meta. I think it's like an amazing brand awareness opportunity like you're kind of missing out if you don't. Yeah. It's like when we first started the whole the whole part was like scarcity is your marketing. You end up on secondary markets at a high value. Yeah. That's still a piece of our business when we do some like collaborations and special projects. Yeah. And then you phase into other parts. And so at some point, you're kind of missing out on your own business by not doing some of that. So we do it at a very very small scale, but a lot of it is awareness. So we'll we'll push that our pop ups opening in New York in a 50 mile radius of New York City in the next week.

Speaker 3: So Yeah.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Things like that.

Speaker 3: What about... What are you doing on the... Where where can... And do you spend dollars that's like maybe non traditional channels outside of retail? Like, you partnered with any, like, various groups or athletes on the on the, like, equestrian side? Or you...

Speaker 6: Yeah. We've never paid anyone to ever wear our stuff. We've had this, amazing organic adoption of athletes. Obviously, majority like New York, like the best quote of the NBA run was like we've become a additional logo of the New York Knicks.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Hey.

Speaker 2: How did that come together?

Speaker 6: We started doing a local license with the Knicks. Meaning like there's no like paper It's like they put in a wholesale buy. We sell in arena only. Can't sell through our channels or in person. Yeah. And we built up this relationship with them that was this in person release.

Speaker 3: And you knew they were gonna win the championship.

Speaker 6: Well, it's a risk take. Yeah. I mean, when Jalen first moved to New York, he became just like an organic fan of the brand, started wearing our stuff and like we became ride or dies before he was Jalen Brunson.

Speaker 3: And so

Speaker 6: so yeah, it's like a little bit of risk and luck and like relationship building. I think a lot of businesses are built on relationships before you start spending money. Yeah. And so so we've done that with the Knicks over the last couple of years which has been an amazing partnership. We just did a deal with Mitchell and Nest. We'll now allow and we haven't rolled anything out yet that allow us to kinda do any team, any league. So we'll start to do some more licensing opportunities, not just NBA and MLB which we've done before, but other ones which we're super excited about and they've been an amazing partner from the start.

Speaker 3: What about other other brands? Have you done any? I don't I I can't...

Speaker 6: Yeah. We've done collabs with other brands. We've we also like we've done Super Bowl last three years or four years with Don Julio forty '2. Oh, that's good. Talking to we're talking to an auto partner now about a long term deal. And so I think like there's a little bit of a shift that's like how many collabs can you do and we try and release two things every month, whether it's our own season plus a special project or a collab, it doesn't matter how big or small it is. And so we've done a lot of these smaller quick release collabs and I think where we're at now is maybe, let's say, phase four where it's these longer term partnerships where you can put out, more releases over time or include them within seasons. And so like verticals like auto and luxury travel goods and things like Yeah. That I think are the things you're gonna start to see come about over the next couple of years.

Speaker 3: What about with other fashion brands, luxury brands?

Speaker 6: We haven't with any other. We have been in conversations with some that are Yeah. Very exciting.

Speaker 3: Like I feel like you guys should hold out to work with, like you gotta go straight to the top.

Speaker 6: Name a brand.

Speaker 2: Tap out.

Speaker 3: No. I just think there's a lot of there's a lot of brands that like would would basically want to tap into this like overall interest in like country like aesthetics

Speaker 6: Yeah.

Speaker 3: That are maybe like like you know, basically older school luxury brands that would wanna figure out an angle to do it in like Yeah. A more authentic way than just doing a show that's like kind of like equestrian theme.

Speaker 6: Yeah. I think like... But I

Speaker 3: can imagine like there's brands that would have like having horses actually walk in a runway show would be like insane. Yeah.

Speaker 6: Yeah. It's like you're in our office. I think like those brands that fall under LVMH, those brands that fall Yeah. Under Keating Group that you're kind of alluding to. I think like Yeah. We're one big project with one of those away from being recognized maybe more so in that bigger luxury space. But again, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And so I think like we've been in good conversations so that we've been noticed.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 6: And I think like we'll just continue to stay our path until it's the right time for it.

Speaker 2: It's cool.

Speaker 3: Love it.

Speaker 5: What do

Speaker 2: the AI companies need to do to beat Vinted in the App Store? Do you have any idea why Vintage is so dominant?

Speaker 6: I I don't. But honestly, the amount of AI that we use Yeah. In our office on a daily basis, especially our COO and lawyer who's definitely watching because he's a big fan Yeah.

Speaker 3: Does... Thank you.... For your service.

Speaker 6: But not even just him. Even my wife is creative director like Sure. Building these things in Claw that fills into Monday and like the amount of things that we do and optimize as a six person team but it kinda feels like we need...

Speaker 2: Focused on...

Speaker 6: Yeah. And so it's been a big help for us. On the design side, like we haven't much yet, but it's coming, I'm

Speaker 2: But on the operations side, it's huge.

Speaker 6: Yes. Very much so.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Anything that like can be hand drawn, like it feels like it will feel like it'll... It will just naturally feel more right. And then if you can hand draw something and then reproduce it across...

Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean, one of the the graphic designers we use is still all hand drawn. I think there's something really good and special about that. And like going back to this logo, like

Speaker 3: favorite designs ever to get back is like something that, as much as I love Figma, like when a designer actually like draws something out and then you can see like that just like organic like you can... That has like much more character.

Speaker 6: The human touch. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2: For

Speaker 3: sure. Other other SKUs? Like like like... Are you guys gonna do a bunch in like leather bags, leather goods?

Speaker 6: Yeah. We haven't played in the bag game a bunch. I think the only leather pieces we've done is like belts and maybe card holders, wallets, passport holders, like Yeah. The smaller accessories. I think like the focus for us... Like people know us mostly for headwear. The focus for us over the last couple of years is building into our like luxury ready to wear. Yeah. We've done suits in May. I made a tuxedo and a suit for my wedding. My wife made her dress so like maybe wedding wear is is on the horizon. Cool. Not yet.

Speaker 3: That's not

Speaker 6: like an announcement. It's not happening. But like Except for the beats. I would say the focus for us has been like the ready to wear, the outerwear, the luxury loungewear Sure. And like kind of like your everyday wear. And again, it's it's not yeah. It's part of our our fall winter coming out soon. We had Jadakiss in our fall winter release. It was great. He made us look good. But yeah. And that's been the focus and we'll continue to expand it and do some more probably female specific SKUs too. Like I think a lot of people see us as a very male dominant brand where we're, like, pretty close to fifty fifty, which is a good spot to be at. So... Very cool.

Speaker 2: Are hats somehow, like, building a brand on easy mode to some degree? Because the hat is one item where the logo is expected.

Speaker 6: It's the billboard of your head. The billboard of

Speaker 2: your head. But but I mean... Billboard... You can put a logo on it but there's plenty of jacket brands that don't have a logo.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Also, one...

Speaker 2: But you can wear a hat every day.

Speaker 3: One size is a massive difference.

Speaker 2: So was that was that was that thought through? Was it happy chant, happy circumstance, luck?

Speaker 6: Pretend I'm smart and say it was thought through. But think it was it was more like

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 6: I've always been a hack guy my entire life even as a kid. Okay. So... It it was a hat and a sweatshirt. Yeah. I didn't know anything about fashion anything about clothing. I was like, oh, I like this blank. Yeah. I can remember auto o 69. That's the blank I bought. That's what I embroidered

Speaker 3: It's o t t o?

Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A ton of brands Yeah. For merch for a restaurant or whoever. And then, I think at first we were using like Gildan crew necks that we were printing on. Yeah. Like, literally the first person to wear something of ours was gonna post it on Instagram and

Speaker 4: music... Way.

Speaker 6: He was wearing like probably $5,000 pair of leather pants and like a $9.99 Gildan with our print on.

Speaker 3: The funny thing is like Gildan Gildan used to be like people would use that to drag brands Yeah. And then I discovered that like Gildan has some like amazing like silhouettes Wow. And fits. Yeah. Yeah. And I would just go by when I was 22, I'd go on Amazon, I'd be like, give me like Yeah. 30 gildan blanks. Yeah. I would just wear them, you know.

Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean, all I wear now is like our blank samples.

Speaker 3: Yeah. That's great.

Speaker 6: I only get the fucked up stuff and the blanks. That's all I get.

Speaker 3: That's awesome. Organic. Awesome. Well, dude, thank you for...

Speaker 6: Appreciate you have me.

Speaker 5: Yeah. Enjoy the hats.... For coming on. Yeah....

Speaker 2: Hat? Look at... Take a tour of that hat.

Speaker 3: Woah. Time is money. Save both. The...

Speaker 5: Good. Appreciate that. Great.

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